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Dear me, top flight racing?


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#201 suzrg500

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 21:44

I have to agree with Paul. Even going back 12 years or so to the last generations of 500's, they were so reliable, high sides were another story but a seizure was a real rarity. The only one I ever had in 8 seasons of 2 strokes was one small nip up on my Mk3 RG while running in some very tight new barrels and pistons.

In fact the closest I've been to getting slung up the road because of a failure was on an F1 Honda I was sharing with Fred Hugget at the Snett 6hr when the cam chain snapped and stuck me onto the grass at 90mph :eek:

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#202 rd500

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:25

Quite honestly, for a while now I haven't liked the way this thread was going


my thoughts exactly although i have contributed, russell, i do not want to get into a debate into which riders died because of this or that as i find that kind of topic really quite disturbing and this is why i didnt answer your question.

sure 2 strokes seize, so what are you saying, everybody who owns one or races one in classic meetings should stop using them in case they seize and they are killed?

if that was the case then nobody would ride/race in case they got killed by any accident regardless of the reason.

yes i have posted many posts about the two strokes, how guys are keeping them alive and how they have been maligned by the powers that be, i understand people have thier own experiences and i respect that.

this will be my last post on this thread, cheers

#203 Sakkie

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 09:54

my thoughts exactly although i have contributed, russell, i do not want to get into a debate into which riders died because of this or that as i find that kind of topic really quite disturbing and this is why i didnt answer your question.

sure 2 strokes seize, so what are you saying, everybody who owns one or races one in classic meetings should stop using them in case they seize and they are killed?

if that was the case then nobody would ride/race in case they got killed by any accident regardless of the reason.

yes i have posted many posts about the two strokes, how guys are keeping them alive and how they have been maligned by the powers that be, i understand people have thier own experiences and i respect that.

this will be my last post on this thread, cheers

Jeez, calm down guys. We´re big boys now and should be able to discuss the pro´s and cons of 2 strokes V 4 strokes without anyone throwing their toys out the pram.
I was active during the almost exclusive 2 stroke period and was well aware of the dangers of engine seizures. However, one accepted the possibility of it happening and proceeded with caution. In the event of a four stroke engine blow up, the prospect of a sump full of oil being dumped on the racing line was/is just as scary a scenario. It´s six of one and half a dozen of another if you ask me. Racing has always been dangerous and there are certain risks one simply has to accept, and mechanical failures have always been part and parcel of the deal.
That said, the 2 strokes were very much in their infancy in the early sixties and one can´t compare them to the 2 strokes of the 80´s and beyond. Yes, they were bloody hairy to ride as they did lock up, but thanks to the development put in by the pioneers, todays 2 strokes are practically bomb proof and way safer than 4 strokes IMO.


#204 Russell Burrows

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 14:52

my thoughts exactly although i have contributed, russell, i do not want to get into a debate into which riders died because of this or that as i find that kind of topic really quite disturbing and this is why i didnt answer your question.

sure 2 strokes seize, so what are you saying, everybody who owns one or races one in classic meetings should stop using them in case they seize and they are killed?

if that was the case then nobody would ride/race in case they got killed by any accident regardless of the reason.

yes i have posted many posts about the two strokes, how guys are keeping them alive and how they have been maligned by the powers that be, i understand people have thier own experiences and i respect that.

this will be my last post on this thread, cheers


I wonder if you're familiar with this work?
http://www.mindtools...e/newLDR_82.htm


#205 tonyed

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 16:34

I have to agree with Paul. Even going back 12 years or so to the last generations of 500's, they were so reliable, high sides were another story but a seizure was a real rarity. The only one I ever had in 8 seasons of 2 strokes was one small nip up on my Mk3 RG while running in some very tight new barrels and pistons.

In fact the closest I've been to getting slung up the road because of a failure was on an F1 Honda I was sharing with Fred Hugget at the Snett 6hr when the cam chain snapped and stuck me onto the grass at 90mph :eek:


Which, if my grasp on statistics is correct, using this sample it shows that:

1. Two strokes are almost 100% reliable and therefore safe. :up:
2. Four strokes are 100% unreliable and therefore death traps. :down:

I now believe the debate is over and it's time to retire to the bar and debate some things that are less contentious such as religion and politics. :clap: :drunk: :smoking:


#206 suzrg500

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Posted 18 April 2012 - 21:58

Which, if my grasp on statistics is correct, using this sample it shows that:

1. Two strokes are almost 100% reliable and therefore safe. :up:
2. Four strokes are 100% unreliable and therefore death traps. :down:

I now believe the debate is over and it's time to retire to the bar and debate some things that are less contentious such as religion and politics. :clap: :drunk: :smoking:


:lol: :lol: :lol: nice one Tony

#207 GD66

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:31

Well, after all the doom and gloom, the Spanish GP was a ripper! A multi-bike knuckleup for the first few laps, followed by a long, tense dice for the win. Gutsy effort from the ever-improving Cal Crutchlow, a bright performance on the CRT bike from James Ellison, and Scott Redding back at the front in Moto2. Cheer up, lads! :clap:

#208 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:47

Well, after all the doom and gloom, the Spanish GP was a ripper! A multi-bike knuckleup for the first few laps, followed by a long, tense dice for the win. Gutsy effort from the ever-improving Cal Crutchlow, a bright performance on the CRT bike from James Ellison, and Scott Redding back at the front in Moto2. Cheer up, lads! :clap:


Having a good whinge is the perogative of the old codger like wot I am, Glenn. Yes, it was an exciting race. Perhaps Crutchlow is only now learning to ride the thing. Good on him anyway.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 30 April 2012 - 12:51.


#209 fil2.8

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 14:41

Yes , Russ and Glenn , even I have to say from what I saw it was good racing :up: , and , about time to !!!! :wave:

#210 joeninety

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 20:37

[quote name='fil2.8' date='Apr 30 2012, 14:41' post='5693667']
Yes , Russ and Glenn , even I have to say from what I saw it was good racing :up: , and , about time to !!!! :wave:
[/quote
It's not about top speed but about racing and the new classes have to date come up trumps


#211 kz71

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:58

And weren't the moto 3 bikes great, even if they sound like a bunch of speedway bikes.


#212 tonyed

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 18:41

I see that Moto3 certainly has opened the new 'Kiddies' class up to new manufacturers.

EERM

1. Honda (well it was their idea)
2. KTM
3. A bloke in a workshop in Italy (Oral) :(
4. Another bloke in a shed in Italy (?) :blush:

Well that's it and of course a few frame manufacturers recycling the duff bits left over from the Honda cup, sorry Moto2.

But I do see that in the CIV 125/Moto3 race at Monza a Honda Moto3 with Kevin Callia on board won against some (at least 6 year old) Aprilia 'W's despite being outdragged out of every corner (he was by far the best rider) - Progress :confused: :wave:



#213 RC162

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 20:42

I see that Moto3 certainly has opened the new 'Kiddies' class up to new manufacturers.

EERM

1. Honda (well it was their idea)
2. KTM
3. A bloke in a workshop in Italy (Oral) :(
4. Another bloke in a shed in Italy (?) :blush:

Well that's it and of course a few frame manufacturers recycling the duff bits left over from the Honda cup, sorry Moto2.

But I do see that in the CIV 125/Moto3 race at Monza a Honda Moto3 with Kevin Callia on board won against some (at least 6 year old) Aprilia 'W's despite being outdragged out of every corner (he was by far the best rider) - Progress :confused: :wave:


Mahindra not in there then ? I'm sure if I had a sixteen year old son riding up the front in 'Kiddies' class I would be as proud as punch. The biggest thing for me would be if they allowed anyone of any age to ride in the class and have the chance to show they were better. At least the smaller class is not a one make championship now like it was. And as I see it Moto 2 offers great racing at a price that can fill the grid plus CRT seems to have aroused the interest of several teams due to the lower costs. You may not like it and you know where the switch is but this is how it is for the moment. Progress no ! Affordable yes !

#214 chunder27

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 21:12

Running achampionship that is trying to promote youth in the lower classes IS the way forward.

Older riders are not a good idea and really dont offer much in Moto3, Faubel is rather embarrassing and only rides there because he couldnt ride a 600! Bit pathetic really, and there are a few guys out there who shouldnt be. I prefer to see the kids running at the front, its mroe exciting and newwworthy, is great to see this kid from italy doing so well, so dull for years seeing endless Spanish drones coming though.

What we need now is an influx of Japanese again like the 90's, perhaps the greatest era of the 125 class

#215 RC162

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Posted 08 May 2012 - 07:46

Running achampionship that is trying to promote youth in the lower classes IS the way forward.

Older riders are not a good idea and really dont offer much in Moto3, Faubel is rather embarrassing and only rides there because he couldnt ride a 600! Bit pathetic really, and there are a few guys out there who shouldnt be. I prefer to see the kids running at the front, its mroe exciting and newwworthy, is great to see this kid from italy doing so well, so dull for years seeing endless Spanish drones coming though.

What we need now is an influx of Japanese again like the 90's, perhaps the greatest era of the 125 class


I totally agree with you. Moto3 should be a deveopment class for youngsters. My point about letting in the 'oldies' was more of a 'put up or shut up' pop at the whingers. The only way to get more riders from more countries involved is to make it more affordable and despite what the 'Honda knockers' say Moto 3 seems to be working in this way.

#216 kz71

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:51

I totally agree with you. Moto3 should be a deveopment class for youngsters. My point about letting in the 'oldies' was more of a 'put up or shut up' pop at the whingers. The only way to get more riders from more countries involved is to make it more affordable and despite what the 'Honda knockers' say Moto 3 seems to be working in this way.



And Moto 2 is at least affordable. And the racing is damn good.
All very good for people to waffle on about an elite class and tech advancement etc, but the reality is that, in it's present incarnation, the M/cycle industry can't afford it's sport.


#217 Tonka

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 20:42

There are many riders who are not physically able to race large bikes, there are others who prefer to race at lower speeds. The way MotoGP treats these riders is deplorable.

Carlo Ubbiali, Ralph Bryans, Ernst Degner & Angel Nieto seldom rode large bikes, that doesn't make them lesser champions than Hailwood & Rossi. If they raced today, they'd be forced to ride big bikes, whether or not they wanted to.

Add to that, small bike riders are being forced out of the lower classes into classes where they can't get rides. What's that about ?





#218 fil2.8

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 21:32

Slight error here , I feel , Ralph Bryans made his name on large machines , IIRC

#219 larryd

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 23:02

Slight error here , I feel , Ralph Bryans made his name on large machines , IIRC


Correct -- 50s (World Champion :clap: ), 125s, 250s, 350s, 500s plus a 750 Honda at Daytona !!

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#220 Stu Pidman

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 23:25

I have to agree with Tonka.
In the past each capacity class was accorded the status it deserved.
Today we have the pathway to the "Premier" class.
This denegrates the smaller classes by making them lesser classes.
Our sport is the worse for this stupid attitude.
Bigger is not necessarily better!

#221 Tonka

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 00:00

Slight error here , I feel , Ralph Bryans made his name on large machines , IIRC


I associate Ralph with the smaller bikes. I could have put up a much longer list, but I have made my point. Riders would specialise in particular classes and were not thought any the less for it.



#222 Tonka

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 00:04

Correct -- 50s (World Champion :clap: ), 125s, 250s, 350s, 500s plus a 750 Honda at Daytona !!


Do a handful of 350 & 500 races mean he wanted to race in those classes. His rides on the larger Hondas were usually to take points from other factories when titles were getting tight.




#223 roger9650

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 18:43

Do a handful of 350 & 500 races mean he wanted to race in those classes. His rides on the larger Hondas were usually to take points from other factories when titles were getting tight.


Bill Ivy didn't do too badly


#224 fil2.8

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 19:14

Bill Ivy didn't do too badly



plus , of course , Ralph was successful on 350/500 Manx's , before his Honda contract , IIRC , as , maybe Stuart Graham , Derek Woodman and Alan Shepherd were , and a few others

Before anyone picks me up on it , I was NOT suggesting they all rode for the mighty H , rather than small machines :rolleyes: from other companies , although 2 of them did indeed ride for Honda

Edited by fil2.8, 10 May 2012 - 19:21.


#225 Tonka

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 20:32

Bill Ivy didn't do too badly



And your point is ?

Read what I originally said - not all riders want to race big bikes. There is no reason why they should be descriminated against because they choose to ride small bikes. A good race depends upon riders, not bikes.

Dorna have made a balls of MotoGP. There are a couple of posts on the main racing forum about how they've attempted to turn Motorcycle GP's in Car F1 events. The main race (which is all too often a borefest) is being pushed to the detriment of the other classes. Jeez, they've even forced the smaller classes out of the main paddock this year.

BTW - it appears the World Superbike Championship could be on the way down the crapper too.



#226 Rennmax

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:31

I see your point Tonka, but this separation in small and big class boys prevented us from watching the best riders of a given era competing against each other. So regrettably we never had the chance to watch Ubialli and Surtees or Nieto and Ago on (comparable) bikes in one race.

#227 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 12:39

I have to agree with Tonka.
In the past each capacity class was accorded the status it deserved.
Today we have the pathway to the "Premier" class.
This denegrates the smaller classes by making them lesser classes.
Our sport is the worse for this stupid attitude.
Bigger is not necessarily better!


.......Yet the the 'premier class', the 'blue ribbon' event was always the 500's.  ;)

#228 Russell Burrows

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 14:34

I see your point Tonka, but this separation in small and big class boys prevented us from watching the best riders of a given era competing against each other. So regrettably we never had the chance to watch Ubialli and Surtees or Nieto and Ago on (comparable) bikes in one race.


I suspect too that decisions on who of the little bike pilots got to throw a leg over a big'un was determined by all sorts of half arsed notions; wasn't Readie intially restricted to riding the 350 MV due to a belief by the company that he was a smaller bike rider?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 11 May 2012 - 14:35.


#229 Rennmax

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 14:57

I suspect too that decisions on who of the little bike pilots got to throw a leg over a big'un was determined by all sorts of half arsed notions; wasn't Readie intially restricted to riding the 350 MV due to a belief by the company that he was a smaller bike rider?


Wasn't he signed to help Ago against the Yamahas and occasionally 2 stroke HDs in '72 Russ, there was no threat in the big class yet and they had Pagani playing the second fiddle. And he came from the JPS Norton, so he had his share of fresh experience with big 4 strokes.
But push starting a big 4 stroke was possibly not easy for the small guys

Edited by Rennmax, 11 May 2012 - 15:03.


#230 Sakkie

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:06

I have to agree with Tonka.
In the past each capacity class was accorded the status it deserved.
Today we have the pathway to the "Premier" class.
This denegrates the smaller classes by making them lesser classes.
Our sport is the worse for this stupid attitude.
Bigger is not necessarily better!

Absolutely Stu. Your points are spot on.
Was Nieto a lesser champion than Ago? Well, if they were paired on 500´s maybe, but I´d have put every penny I have (that´s not a great deal BTW) on Neito if they were both on comparable 125´s or 50´s. To try and compare the abilities required to pilot a small machine with those required for a heavier and more powerful one, is simply wrong. They required different techniques and styles. Yes, there were some riders who could master both, but they were few and far between.
I must say, I never distinguished between the classes in the old days, in thinking that small bike riders were inferior in any way. On the contrary, I marveled at the skill of men like Nieto and the other small bike masters.
This "premier" class crap is an attempt by the promoters to emulate F!. It´s about TV, prestige, and money, and not reality.

Edited by Sakkie, 11 May 2012 - 18:36.


#231 RC162

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 18:36


For me anyone capable winning of a world title at GP level in any era is of equal standing. It is horses for courses though as I don't know of any heavyweight 50cc Champions but you do have to look at Pedrosa and Stoner as being on the slight side and able to put a MotoGP bike at the pointy end of a race. Mind you if they had to push it at the start I don't think Dani would make the corner first so often.