169 replies to this topic

[ff1600]

I hate to say it but unless Massa ups his pace his days are numbered at Ferrari. I think he make it throught the season but is future is not that bright. Maybe that wreck tokk more out of him that people thought. His driving yesterday was very poor.

[CF22]

His driving yesterday was pretty good, not the best. He kept Button behind him until Button got annoyed and decided to take the shortcut. He also had an excellent start like the old Massa we knew. Unfortunately the strategy used didn't play out in his favor due to him struggling with the harder tires and not being able to do a two stop. I also think his days are numbered at Ferrari and wish he could return to his old self, but the accident did seem to have some negative effects.

[Dunder]

Several drivers had bad weekends.

Massa was one of them but Webber, Heidfeld and Barrichello will be just as disappointed.
I would, nonetheless, agree that after last year the pressure on Massa has increased.

[pingu666]

i think what happened at germany last year has squashed him

[Menace]

I thought last year, that lets give him another chance this year, but if this continues they simply cant afford to waste a top seat. It's such a shame, he seemed to be on top of his game driving more confidently and more consistently then ever, only to have that horrific accident.

He has lots of work to do, he simply looks lost at times...

[e63]

The slower Massa goes, the more likely it is that he will stay with Ferarri IMO

[V8 Fireworks]

I hate to say it but unless Massa ups his pace his days are numbered at Ferrari. I think he make it throught the season but is future is not that bright. Maybe that wreck tokk more out of him that people thought. His driving yesterday was very poor.

Ferrari has many choices is really the issue I suppose. Many young guns want a Ferrari seat!
Of course Kubica deserves such a drive when he returns.
Else there is the whole new guard, Koba, the Hulk, Beumi, Alguersuari and all the rest like Sutil, di Resta, Perez etc.

But Massa is a very much liked Ferrari superstar

[Buckethead]

Maybe he was never that good. I mean, come on, Alonso > Kimi

[gerry nassar]

Maybe he was never that good. I mean, come on, Alonso > Kimi

Massa pre-crash and Massa-post crash are certainly not the same driver.

Likewise, the team during the Massa/Kimi years is very different to how it is under the Alonso regime.

Alonso > Kimi is possible but you cant come to this conclusion via direct comparison with Massa. Different situations bring out different strengths in a driver. Kimi may have beaten Alonso in a McLaren but it could be the other way around in a Ferrari. We'll never know.

[packapoo]

Unfortunately Massa's time is definitly limited at Ferrari.
There's been a quantum shift in performance scrutiny and he's not cutting it.

[Xpat]

He's rich, he doesn't need to race for the money.

He had a life threatening accident. He has a child now. He turns 30 this year.

He knows he has to play second fiddle to Alonso. Any pretence about not having team orders is gone.

He got as close as you can get to winning the title without winning and he wont be allowed to get that close again assuming Alonso is mathematically in the race.

I imagine his motivation isn't what it once was.

[DRAGONZO]

He went from tester to fullfill literally the 2nd seat left by Barichello so... He standed good when Raikkonen failed. I consider him so lucky to be there for so long. I used to think that Ferrari would sink in the post MS era and watching the persistance for keeping him around tends to confirm that bad feeling unless a miracle happens with the spaniard powers. He should have gone for quite a while IMHO. Ferrari might end the season in third place again for that very sole reason

[Go_Go]

I imagine his motivation isn't what it once was.

[bourbon]

Maybe he was never that good. I mean, come on, Alonso > Kimi

No, Kimi >>>Alonso and Ferrari has had to face the truth in that regard. Their decision to bring Alonso in failed in every regard. No WCC, no WDC and lots of criticism, rage, unhappiness and scorn from the tifosi and well, all of Italy.

This is very important to Massa's situation because as e63 said - the slower he goes, the better his chance of retaining the Ferrari drive. It is too late to try to say they made a good decision regarding Alonso, but if he wins, all will be forgiven. So Massa must be sacrificed. This time, from the start. Massa knows the score - he let Alonso through in Australia - for a good reason as they would both get a freebee from Button - but Alonso never let him back through, pitted first and no one seemed to care. In fact, fans rushed to point out how horrible Massa raced on Sunday - despite his moving from 8th to 5th in the first part of the race, ahead of his teammate and holding off Button for 14 laps while Alonso caught up.

People claim he has been bad since his accident - presumably forgetting how media, team and eveyone else was exclaiming over Massa's wonderful form at the beginning of last season (he was even leading the WDC race for a while). Then he hit a dry patch, just like all the other drivers - but Ferarri hopped on their chance to slot Alonso in front and demoralized Massa, forcing him to give way to Alonso. And we are supposed to join Ferrari in their public ridicule of Massa? I'd rather be manipulated by a ******** monkey...

[DILLIGAF]

I thought last year, that lets give him another chance this year, but if this continues they simply cant afford to waste a top seat. It's such a shame, he seemed to be on top of his game driving more confidently and more consistently then ever, only to have that horrific accident.

He has lots of work to do, he simply looks lost at times...

Tend to agree. I'm willing to give him a few more races before writing him off but the signs aren't good. He comes across as a really nice guy & is hard to dislike but if he doesn't improve his results & score plenty of WCC points for Scuderia this season he'll be gone i'm afraid.

[2ms]

I think as long as Santander is still footing their bills Ferrari F1 is going to continue to employ Massa. As long as this is the arrangement, Alonso is going to continue to be required as their first driver (ie even if he doesn't win WDCs as his predecessors did), and Alonso will never accept a teammate who might beat him (as we know from history). Massa will not beat Alonso as Massa has clearly accepted a subserviant role in the team as was clear most obviously first at China 2010 with the pitlane pass. Kimi clearly would not have accepted this role. Kubica would never accept this role. There is no driver who is better than either current Ferrari driver who would accept this role. So they will continue with Massa until they get rid of Alonso/Santander.

[Gyan]

Would do good in a mid table team where he can be team leader.

Probably Williams once Barrichello leaves and retires.

Edited by Gyan, 29 March 2011 - 07:48.

[marcoferrari]

It is very painful to see Felipe struggling that much... He was doing so well in 2008 and 2009, but after the accident I just can t recognize "the old" Massa again...

Edited by marcoferrari, 29 March 2011 - 08:18.

[MikeTekRacing]

The only thing that seemed to work was the 1:1 fight...but his pace was nowhere

I have no idea what is wrong with him.

[JohnnyWoodcock]

I think he has lost his motivation.

He is not allowed to beat Alonso and because of this he is just going through the motions and putting in the basic levels of effort.

If he moved to another team I think he would improve.

[undersquare]

Martin Brundle said in a preview video this year he's never been quite as sharp after a concussion he got in 1984. Brain injuries are funny things, they can have effects that are hard to pin down, and I do think Massa's injury has affected him.

Ferrari obviously made it worse with the team orders thing, that was so badly handled, plus Alonso is the worst teammate for him, in terms of destroying his confidence. Felipe does completely lack that F1 cockiness these days, I don't see him getting back to form.

I would really like him to continue at Ferrari for a long long time, but then I'm a McLaren fan .

[velgajski1]

He's rich, he doesn't need to race for the money.

He had a life threatening accident. He has a child now. He turns 30 this year.

He knows he has to play second fiddle to Alonso. Any pretence about not having team orders is gone.

He got as close as you can get to winning the title without winning and he wont be allowed to get that close again assuming Alonso is mathematically in the race.

I imagine his motivation isn't what it once was.

This. He lost the edge that he had in 2008. and unless something radical happens in his mind - he is going the exit route.

[Gareth]

I didn't think things were as bad as they looked on Sunday. He got off to a great start and had a good fight with Jenson. Button's (illegal) off track excursion put him into the clutches of Alonso and he didn't fight his team mate too hard.

He was then put on a strategy that just seemed bizarre to me. He pitted 4 laps later than Alonso at the end of his second stint (so ran 3 laps longer on the tyres used, as his first stop was 1 lap later) and went on to hards. A decision that only made sense if they thought they could get him to the end of the race - if not, an earlier stop for softs was the way to go. When he then had to make his third stop his race went from alright to terrible. I don't know what Ferrari were doing there, but it made things look a lot worse for Massa than they were I think.

[dreamerP]

I think he has lost his motivation.

He is not allowed to beat Alonso and because of this he is just going through the motions and putting in the basic levels of effort.

If he moved to another team I think he would improve.

WHY? Why is he not allowed to beat alonso anymore? where exactly do you base this assumption? seriously people you need to get over this "ferrari=alonso" thing!!!

as i said in another forum, I am fairly certain that to the people running ferrari, the name "ferrari" is far more important than "alonso", so they will do whatever it takes to keep that name on top. if massa ups his game to the point where he will be able to challenge alonso and he is in front on the wdc tables, there is no way in hell that ferrari will take points off their leading driver just to put another one on top. not with things as they are now, with red bull's dominance and the speed that mclaren have revealed.

COME ON!!!

[SeanValen]

Massa never looks good at Albert Park

It's all perception, if the season started in Bahrain and Turkey, then we'll know if any of the old Massa is still left.

Give him more races out of respect, but saying that, it could be he was more comfortable on the old birdgestone rubber where Schumacher taught him a few things before he left ferrari, now with Alonso there, he is not getting any technical teaching, and I always found the work relatioinship between Massa and Smedley too much like gym class instructor, Massa needs the right help to feel comfortable, he needs more things to go right, and in f1,perhaps he';s used up his luck in 2008.

I don't know if any aspect of his accident has changed him, he hasn't admitted so as of yet.

But still give him more races this year, ferrari are not quite right yet to be considered top dog.

Edited by SeanValen, 29 March 2011 - 08:58.

[undersquare]

WHY? Why is he not allowed to beat alonso anymore? where exactly do you base this assumption? seriously people you need to get over this "ferrari=alonso" thing!!!

as i said in another forum, I am fairly certain that to the people running ferrari, the name "ferrari" is far more important than "alonso", so they will do whatever it takes to keep that name on top. if massa ups his game to the point where he will be able to challenge alonso and he is in front on the wdc tables, there is no way in hell that ferrari will take points off their leading driver just to put another one on top. not with things as they are now, with red bull's dominance and the speed that mclaren have revealed.

COME ON!!!

If Massa were really a contender then you would be right. But it's clear to Ferrari and everyone else that Alonso is the better driver and so Massa is not going to be allowed to take precious points off him. Any precious points.

But Ferrari are going to discover (since they haven't learned yet) why other teams allow their drivers to race - making an experienced driver a permanent No2 demotivates them, saps their confidence and slows them down.

And since they signed him for another 2 years in the middle of a disappointing season, they're going to have all the time they need for this to finally sink in.

[Infinityl]

I think he has lost his motivation.

He is not allowed to beat Alonso and because of this he is just going through the motions and putting in the basic levels of effort.

If he moved to another team I think he would improve.

So you think Massa is quickest than Alonso but Ferrari order him to go 0.6 - 0.8 slower ?

Yes, perhaps he should move to Mclaren where drivers have same opportunities

[Ross Stonefeld]

We did this already 12 months ago.

[SeanValen]

We did this already 12 months ago.

Ferrari drivers are under extra powerful microscopes, when there are problems someone must always talk.

It didn't matter in the past if Schumacher won 5 championships, if you have one bad weekend, even the first race, one bad corner, one tenth of miscaluation, years of hard work and success is for a moment paused for others to strictly comment on that scene in that moment. That's ferrari, a eternal disease where the only pain inducing treatment is winning, and then like a user, the highs only last so long for their followers, before a come down comes to the for front, and another injection is urgently needed.

No one is safe from critique of a f1 fan, not all time successful drivers and or one season title challenging wonders.

Edited by SeanValen, 29 March 2011 - 09:11.

[engel]

Massa is not the same driver he was in 2009 before Hungary. His priorities are different. Beyond that he gets 8 million dollars/year, gets to drive for Ferrari and has the outside chance of success if for some reason Alonso's season goes pear shaped. In many ways that's a considerably better deal than making a million a year in a midfield team and having to prove himself every race. As to him being gone from Ferrari ... why? Do you honestly think Ferrari and Santander want to bring somebody in that would rattle Alonso? Doubt it ... way to much is invested in making Alonso and Ferrari work, there's no reason to risk that until they reevaluate come contract renewal time. Also don't forget, Ferrari back in 2007 didn't look at Massa as their big gun. They hired Kimi for that role, Massa was just what was left from the Schumacher era. I 'm just not convinced Luca believes the team can function with two equal drivers, history suggests success comes when you concentrate on one.

[Henrik B]

WHY? Why is he not allowed to beat alonso anymore? where exactly do you base this assumption? seriously people you need to get over this "ferrari=alonso" thing!!!

Did you see the race? Massa holds Button for 15 laps, Alonso gets in his mirror and he lets him past in an instant. And no, I don't think they had time to give orders to force a penalty for Button, he jumped aside immediately.

This is not a bash or criticism, it's a retelling of the facts as I saw them. Massa is NOT faster, but if he by chance or strategy is ahead he will let Alonso pass. He's #2 from the start of the season this year.

[hotstickyslick]

Massa is the same driver that he was after his accident. He looks like him, talks like him, and certainly drives like him. Just because he can't adapt his style to slicks doesn't mean his accident is still affecting him. Look at 2008, his style worked well with the grooved tyres. Alonso's just in another class.

[Nobody]

It is very painful to see Felipe struggling that much... He was doing so well in 2008 and 2009, but after the accident I just can t recognize "the old" Massa again...

Thats bullsh*t man, only he knows what happened to him really, everybody is different, I don't think we can sit back and compare these kind of situations when it comes to people.

Bur I agree, even as a driver for the red team, it does upset me a little to see him struggle post Hungary, because he is a driver I have really learned to respect.

I think he's gone from Ferrari.

[2ms]

Ferrari drivers are under extra powerful microscopes, when there are problems someone must always talk.

It didn't matter in the past if Schumacher won 5 championships, if you have one bad weekend, even the first race, one bad corner, one tenth of miscaluation, years of hard work and success is for a moment paused for others to strictly comment on that scene in that moment. That's ferrari, a eternal disease where the only pain inducing treatment is winning, and then like a user, the highs only last so long for their followers, before a come down comes to the for front, and another injection is urgently needed.

No one is safe from critique of a f1 fan, not all time successful drivers and or one season title challenging wonders.

This is generally the case for Ferrari 1st drivers. However, it has not been the case for their second drivers. Additionally, it is not the case right now with their first driver even, as we all know that Alonso is not going anywhere as long as Santander is paying his salary. Whereas with the previous two 1st drivers one season meant that their seats were discussed no matter if they had won WDCs in the seasons prior, these days all Ferrari drivers are safe. No one has discussed Alonso needing to leave last season even with his making such unprecedented number of mistakes for a Ferrari driver (and not getting WDC). Ferrari second drivers have traditionally had even safer seats than their first drivers. When was the last time you saw a Ferrari driver who wasn't the one who was expected to win WDCs get fired? They don't. Not in modern era.

On top of this, Ferrari would only get rid of Massa if they could replace him with someone else. But can anyone think of anyone who would be willing to take his place at Ferrari given the environment of the sponsor being Santander and Alonso's style of demanding preferential treatment?

[Stormsky68]

Massa is a good fit #2. He's a decent enough driver, knows his way around F1, is a very good test driver, and importantly knows his place. Who is going to do that job better without upsetting the Alonso apple cart?

[dreamerP]

Did you see the race? Massa holds Button for 15 laps, Alonso gets in his mirror and he lets him past in an instant. And no, I don't think they had time to give orders to force a penalty for Button, he jumped aside immediately.

This is not a bash or criticism, it's a retelling of the facts as I saw them. Massa is NOT faster, but if he by chance or strategy is ahead he will let Alonso pass. He's #2 from the start of the season this year.

did you watch the race?
massa was holding button for 15 laps, made a mistake on a turn, lost momentum, button passed him (EDIT: with that illegal move), alonso caught him (EDIT: if you watch the replay you will see how fast alonso was in massa's tail. massa completely botched his exit there around 2:28). massa then closed the door to alonso, as best as he could, but the momentum was gone and by the next turn, alonso had him.

i love it how people remember what they want to remember!! the bolded part wins the lie of the year award for me at the moment

Edited by dreamerP, 29 March 2011 - 09:36.

[Ferrari2183]

If Massa were really a contender then you would be right. But it's clear to Ferrari and everyone else that Alonso is the better driver and so Massa is not going to be allowed to take precious points off him. Any precious points.

But Ferrari are going to discover (since they haven't learned yet) why other teams allow their drivers to race - making an experienced driver a permanent No2 demotivates them, saps their confidence and slows them down.

And since they signed him for another 2 years in the middle of a disappointing season, they're going to have all the time they need for this to finally sink in.

Undersquare, you really don't believe this do you... Should Massa be 20 points ahead of Alonso come Germany for whatever reason. Whether it be retirements or mistakes on his part. Do you think Ferrari is going to tell him to step aside?

All Massa needs to do is keep himself in contention points wise and by demonstrating pace then he will be just fine. If he continues to fall behind at a rate of knots then Ferrari will be forced to make the decision again.

[AlanWake]

The difference between Alonso and Massa in terms of raw speed is similar to the difference that there is between Hamilton and Button (2-3 tenths), but I don't see nobody saying that Button has lost his edge, most people say that the difference between him and Hamilton in terms of raw speed is because Hamilton is a very special driver blah blah...

Last year Massa said that the tyres didn't suit his driving style which was the main reason why Alonso was much faster than him. I just wonder If Alonso has a similar speed over Massa again this year, will some of his fans admit that "tyres doesn't suit me" are simple excuses and that Alonso, like Hamilton, is a great driver who can mark the difference... Of course there are always other reasons: Massa's accident, Santander, Team orders, etc.

[dreamerP]

Undersquare, you really don't believe this do you... Should Massa be 20 points ahead of Alonso come Germany for whatever reason. Whether it be retirements or mistakes on his part. Do you think Ferrari is going to tell him to step aside?

All Massa needs to do is keep himself in contention points wise and by demonstrating pace then he will be just fine. If he continues to fall behind at a rate of knots then Ferrari will be forced to make the decision again.

and this is exactly the point I am trying to make. all massa needs to do is perform consistently well. if he finds himself in front of alonso in the standings for whatever reason by half-season, he will know that he will get full support! great expectations on my behalf? perhaps! but completely plausible

[undersquare]

Undersquare, you really don't believe this do you... Should Massa be 20 points ahead of Alonso come Germany for whatever reason. Whether it be retirements or mistakes on his part. Do you think Ferrari is going to tell him to step aside?

All Massa needs to do is keep himself in contention points wise and by demonstrating pace then he will be just fine. If he continues to fall behind at a rate of knots then Ferrari will be forced to make the decision again.

IF Felipe gets ahead in the points in some convincing way, then yes. But he's not going to is he?

Meanwhile we're going to see the second Ferrari driven well below its potential, and the way the team manages things its performance is going to be on the slide all year.

[undersquare]

The difference between Alonso and Massa in terms of raw speed is similar to the difference that there is between Hamilton and Button (2-3 tenths), but I don't see nobody saying that Button has lost his edge, most people say that the difference between him and Hamilton in terms of raw speed is because Hamilton is a very special driver blah blah...

Last year Massa said that the tyres didn't suit his driving style which was the main reason why Alonso was much faster than him. I just wonder If Alonso has a similar speed over Massa again this year, will some of his fans admit that "tyres doesn't suit me" are simple excuses and that Alonso, like Hamilton, is a great driver who can mark the difference... Of course there are always other reasons: Massa's accident, Santander, Team orders, etc.

There's a difference though. Jenson knows that if he can get ahead of Lewis in a race he'll be allowed to stay there. So his motivation is going to be higher, and that difference is going to grow race by race..

[smitten]

The difference between Alonso and Massa in terms of raw speed is similar to the difference that there is between Hamilton and Button (2-3 tenths), but I don't see nobody saying that Button has lost his edge, most people say that the difference between him and Hamilton in terms of raw speed is because Hamilton is a very special driver blah blah...

Last year Massa said that the tyres didn't suit his driving style which was the main reason why Alonso was much faster than him. I just wonder If Alonso has a similar speed over Massa again this year, will some of his fans admit that "tyres doesn't suit me" are simple excuses and that Alonso, like Hamilton, is a great driver who can mark the difference... Of course there are always other reasons: Massa's accident, Santander, Team orders, etc.

I agree that Alonso is faster than Massa, but I think he and the team have also out-psyched him too. The whole team orders shooting in foot thing will be what the Alonso/Massa pairing will be remembered for, in the same way as Alonso/Piquet will be remembered for crashgate and Alonso/Hamilton for being a whole damn mess.

There are always excuses for any driver to be out performed by another, but the fact remains that he was performing better before the accident than afterwards. I don't buy the slicks thing as he was leading Kimi in '09 when they went to Hungary and still managed to finish in the WDC above one of the McLarens. I don't know it is the accident, but until he has another good year it will always look like it was.

[engel]

Massa is the same driver that he was after his accident. He looks like him, talks like him, and certainly drives like him. Just because he can't adapt his style to slicks doesn't mean his accident is still affecting him. Look at 2008, his style worked well with the grooved tyres. Alonso's just in another class.

Drives like him?When Massa is trying Massa makes mistakes, go rewatch 2007/2008/2009. He was all over the place. 2010/2011 Massa is steady as she goes don't push too hard, I m sorry but it's plain to see. He just accepted he's not willing to kill himself for F1 glory, he has a kid, he's happy with the gigantic Ferrari paycheck and that's all there is to it. And there's no shame in that by the way, Massa has a skillset that will provide him with employment for 5? 10 years? There is no shame in saying I came to within 5 seconds of a WDC, beyond that I 'd rather play the hand I am dealt with, which is support the Santander Ferrari Alonso thing that go out and try and be a hero in a Force India. Cause don't kid yourself, McLaren/RedBull/Renault/Mercedes aren't queuing up to employ him.

[Taxi]

 He's just having some of the things Kimi got from the team. Not being nº 1 is quite hard. But then, his situation is even worse than kimi's: He was publicly humiliated in Germany last year. And of course, his accident made him lost that edge IMO. It's time for him to go.

[Xpat]

So you think Massa is quickest than Alonso but Ferrari order him to go 0.6 - 0.8 slower ?

Yes, perhaps he should move to Mclaren where drivers have same opportunities

Overall he isn't faster than Alonso. But as Germany showed, when he is in front of Alonso he is told to go slower.

What does that do for a driver's motivation?

[Ferrari2183]

IF Felipe gets ahead in the points in some convincing way, then yes. But he's not going to is he?

Meanwhile we're going to see the second Ferrari driven well below its potential, and the way the team manages things its performance is going to be on the slide all year.

That's just the thing. The opportunity is there for the taking but he is up a against a rampant Alonso. Which again leads us to Alonso is just better which in turn will lead to him having to move over more often than not.

If his motivation is low or has consigned himself to receiving a can of whipass from Alonso every race weekend then he should do the decent thing and just quit before he is fired. His performances last year and the performance in Australia don't even warrant being labelled number 2.

Anyway, let's see how he performs in the next couple of races before jumping to conclusions.

Btw, what do you mean by the way the team manages things its performance is going to be on the slide all year?

Edited by Ferrari2183, 29 March 2011 - 11:06.

[MrAerodynamicist]

I've always considered Massa to be a Jekyll and hyde and Hyde driver. When it's been a weekend where the Ferrari is the class of the field, he's shown the ability to stick it on pole, and then put in a flawless drive where even the other Ferrari hasn't troubled for the lead. However, for all the other races aren't like that, he seems to be generally unable to come out fighting.

The most telling stat is that with the exception of Lewis' Spa DQ, and Kimi's exhaust failure in France, every one of Massa's wins has been a 1st corner-to-flag lead (bar pitstop periods).

'07-08 was a period when most weekends were all about McFerrari, and they were never consistantly troubled by everybody else. Unless they were really stupid, it wasn't that hard for LH/FA/FM/KR to at least get a third or fourth. Importantly, there were pleanty of weekends when Massa had a shot of putting the car on the front row, and then the chance to lead from the front.

'09-11 isn't like that. There's been more of a mix as to who has been in contention in a given weekend, and importantly, Ferrari have never really given him a top car. When they did, we had Germany, where he was on course for another light-top-flag victory. The team order deprived him of that, and I think left him seriously unmotived for the rest of the year.

[Trust]

Kimi=Alonso > Massa.
Like someone said before, it's possible that Kimi would beat Alonso in a McLaren, but it's also possible Alonso would beat him in a Ferrari...

Massa was never a top driver..

[SchuOz]

A mate of mine was in the paddock at Melbourne and heard some whispers that Rubens could retire at the end of the year & Massa could take his place at Williams.

[Enzoluis]

I mean, come on, Alonso > Kimi

I would wait to say that after Alonso brings a championship at Ferrari.