A British reader wrote to the Motorsport-Memorial staff about Martin Raymond's page:
http://www.motorspor...php?db=ct&n=982
He said he was a marshal on duty that day of 1980 at Brands Hatch (don't known whether he was at the place of Martin Raymond's accident or in any other bend of the circuit), and he does not believe that the accident that took Raymond's life occurred as it is described in the Motorsport-Memorial page.
He suggested that, being some of the sources Italian magazines or newspaper, the details were incorrect because probably the Italian press tried to protect the Italians involved in the crash (the driver Marco Rocca and Lancia).
The Motorsport-Memorial staff has checked issues of MotorSport, Autosport and Motor and we have not found important discrepancies about the course of events. Possibly, he does not agree about the criticism by the Italian press against the British marshals who apparently didn't move the car of Raymond and let the driver stay behind it long time in that dangerous place.
Brands Hatch 1980, Martin Raymond
Started by
Nanni Dietrich
, Mar 31 2011 13:59
6 replies to this topic
Advertisement
#2
llmaurice
-
- 431 posts
- Joined: May 04
Member
Posted 31 March 2011 - 16:15
A British reader wrote to the Motorsport-Memorial staff about Martin Raymond's page:
http://www.motorspor...php?db=ct&n=982
He said he was a marshal on duty that day of 1980 at Brands Hatch (don't known whether he was at the place of Martin Raymond's accident or in any other bend of the circuit), and he does not believe that the accident that took Raymond's life occurred as it is described in the Motorsport-Memorial page.
He suggested that, being some of the sources Italian magazines or newspaper, the details were incorrect because probably the Italian press tried to protect the Italians involved in the crash (the driver Marco Rocca and Lancia).
The Motorsport-Memorial staff has checked issues of MotorSport, Autosport and Motor and we have not found important discrepancies about the course of events. Possibly, he does not agree about the criticism by the Italian press against the British marshals who apparently didn't move the car of Raymond and let the driver stay behind it long time in that dangerous place.
I wasn't at the meeting but I knew Martin so all I want to add is that it was a sad end to a really smashing and modest driver .
#3
bigears
-
- 973 posts
- Joined: January 04
Member
Posted 31 March 2011 - 16:17
There is aftermath footage of the accident floating somewhere in the Internet.
I had a set of 1980 Motoring News newspapers but I have recently sold on eBay.
I had a set of 1980 Motoring News newspapers but I have recently sold on eBay.
#4
Tim Murray
-
- 24,604 posts
- Joined: May 02
Moderator
Posted 31 March 2011 - 18:48
I've checked the reports in Autosport and Motoring News, and the only thing the MN report adds is that Raymond had given up trying to work on his Chevron, and was walking away from it when the other two cars collided. MN doesn't express an opinion on the accident, but Autosport's view, as expressed in an editorial, was:
The appalling accident in which Martin Raymond was killed at Brands Hatch last Sunday raises questions about the wisdom of allowing racing drivers to work on stricken cars at the trackside. However, the consensus of opinion seems to be that, as in all but a few fatal accidents, there were exceptional - even freak - circumstances, and that nothing should be done to prevent drivers from doing everything reasonably in their power to get their cars back into the race. AUTOSPORT shares that opinion.
When Raymond came to a stop, his car was beached actually on the track, and several minutes passed before it could be removed onto the grass verge. This was clearly the most dangerous period. As the location was on a short straight, comparatively little danger was apparent once the Chevron was off the circuit itself, although Raymond was quite properly advised by marshals to move behind the barrier. It could not have been foreseen that two other cars would collide at that very place. The marshals acted entirely according to the rules, which do give a driver (whose safety is ultimately his own responsibility) the right to work on his car provided the location is not obviously dangerous.
However we do urge the RAC Motor Sports Association to consider all the aspects of a new rule, which might stipulate that a stationary yellow flag is used continuously in these circumstances in order to give the driver an element of protection. Perhaps a time limit, based on a specific number of laps, could be imposed to ensure that the racing itself is not unreasonably disrupted.
#5
Doug Nye
-
- 11,533 posts
- Joined: February 02
Member
Posted 31 March 2011 - 20:44
I believe this is a very sensitive and tricky subject, even after so many years have passed.
It is virtually impossible to make any observation upon British race marshals without triggering often disproportionately passionate response from the marshal body themselves. They are volunteers. They are enthusiasts. And they are in the main dedicated - and very, very good. But they are not perfect, and they never have been perfect, simply because imperfection is within each and every one of us.
I do recall defensive over-reaction at the time on the part of the marshals and the organising bodies close to Martin Raymond's tragic death.
I do recall 'Autosprint's coverage of the accident. And I pictured then, and can still picture today, the passionate denials of the Italian driver and team involved that any responsibility should be attached to them.
In effect I think it all pretty much turned into an arse-covering exercise for all parties involved apart from those who suffered most directly...Raymond's family, team and many friends.
Multiple cases for the defence were put forward (more or less as a natural defensive reflex) by the race organisers, the involved marshals, the involved other driver(s) and team(s), and ultimately also by the variably partisan reportage offered by the media of the time. Some were well justified, others perhaps less so.
We Brits happily assume that we are the most objective and even-handedly non-partisan nationality when it comes to handling and reacting to such events. I feel this is less so now that it was 20-30 years ago, sadly led by an increasingly tabloid and less mature media, catering for a decreasingoy aware and less mature general public.
But as I recall it, errors were indeed made by a number of people during the chain of events which culminated in Martin Raymond's death, sadly not least by the driver himself. I don't think it helps anyone very much to attach any blame at this range. Sh1- happens ... but when it does, we should learn from it.
DCN
It is virtually impossible to make any observation upon British race marshals without triggering often disproportionately passionate response from the marshal body themselves. They are volunteers. They are enthusiasts. And they are in the main dedicated - and very, very good. But they are not perfect, and they never have been perfect, simply because imperfection is within each and every one of us.
I do recall defensive over-reaction at the time on the part of the marshals and the organising bodies close to Martin Raymond's tragic death.
I do recall 'Autosprint's coverage of the accident. And I pictured then, and can still picture today, the passionate denials of the Italian driver and team involved that any responsibility should be attached to them.
In effect I think it all pretty much turned into an arse-covering exercise for all parties involved apart from those who suffered most directly...Raymond's family, team and many friends.
Multiple cases for the defence were put forward (more or less as a natural defensive reflex) by the race organisers, the involved marshals, the involved other driver(s) and team(s), and ultimately also by the variably partisan reportage offered by the media of the time. Some were well justified, others perhaps less so.
We Brits happily assume that we are the most objective and even-handedly non-partisan nationality when it comes to handling and reacting to such events. I feel this is less so now that it was 20-30 years ago, sadly led by an increasingly tabloid and less mature media, catering for a decreasingoy aware and less mature general public.
But as I recall it, errors were indeed made by a number of people during the chain of events which culminated in Martin Raymond's death, sadly not least by the driver himself. I don't think it helps anyone very much to attach any blame at this range. Sh1- happens ... but when it does, we should learn from it.
DCN
#6
Alfie
-
- 106 posts
- Joined: October 09
Member
Posted 01 April 2011 - 10:59
I would just like to say thank you to DCN for his very gentle but relevant comments regarding the events surrounding this incident, particularly the aspect of marshals' actions/reactions.
As a young sprat, I was fortunate enough to be tutored in my marshalling by Phil Morom and Syd Herbert in the very early days of Silverstone ES. I still clearly remember the advice given to me then and advice which I think marshals through the ages shoudl be reminded of...Do not say anything about an accident that you would not be prepared to say in front of a coroners'court; and bear in mind the ramifications of any such testament that might accrue to those directly involved.
As Doug also reminds us, the marshals of today are extemely sensitive chaps and chapesses and do not take kindly to criticism, implied or otherwise. And yet without constructive criticism, it is very difficult to learn from our mistakes. And again, Doug makes the point gently but effectively, that we all make mistakes - we are human.
As a young sprat, I was fortunate enough to be tutored in my marshalling by Phil Morom and Syd Herbert in the very early days of Silverstone ES. I still clearly remember the advice given to me then and advice which I think marshals through the ages shoudl be reminded of...Do not say anything about an accident that you would not be prepared to say in front of a coroners'court; and bear in mind the ramifications of any such testament that might accrue to those directly involved.
As Doug also reminds us, the marshals of today are extemely sensitive chaps and chapesses and do not take kindly to criticism, implied or otherwise. And yet without constructive criticism, it is very difficult to learn from our mistakes. And again, Doug makes the point gently but effectively, that we all make mistakes - we are human.
#7
Muzza
-
- 802 posts
- Joined: March 03
Member
Posted 05 April 2011 - 03:58
Hi Folks,
Thanks to my dear friend Nanni for opening this thread, and to all that have replied. I'm in the odd position of being at the same time a former marshal and the manager of the Motorsport Memorial Project. Nanni, myself and others did some research on the accident that cost Raymond's life and, although we grew used with conflict between reports surrounding fatal accidents (a somewhat understandable thing, as needless to say these are unsettling events), the discrepancies between the sources we have found in this case is so striking that it has become difficult to connect the dots.
Doug Nye's post is spot on, from beginning to end. The latter part of his message, in fact, reflects one of the core values behind what we do at MM - sh*t happens, but when it does, we should learn from it. We painstakingly research the unpleasant (in the lack of a better word) subject of racing fatalities so racing safety can be improved. Having lost two friends in racing accidents that could have been of lesser consequences, and not wanting to see the list grow further, I decided to attempt to do something. Once again thanks to all (including dozens of people at TNF) that have helped us in the last eight years of work.
Enough rambling... I just wanted to say thank you for any information - most particularly on Martin's life and career. We want to remember him for that, and not for his demise.
Regards to all,
Sal
PS: Once again sorry for being absent from TNF for such a long time. Work has gotten in the way of my life.
Thanks to my dear friend Nanni for opening this thread, and to all that have replied. I'm in the odd position of being at the same time a former marshal and the manager of the Motorsport Memorial Project. Nanni, myself and others did some research on the accident that cost Raymond's life and, although we grew used with conflict between reports surrounding fatal accidents (a somewhat understandable thing, as needless to say these are unsettling events), the discrepancies between the sources we have found in this case is so striking that it has become difficult to connect the dots.
Doug Nye's post is spot on, from beginning to end. The latter part of his message, in fact, reflects one of the core values behind what we do at MM - sh*t happens, but when it does, we should learn from it. We painstakingly research the unpleasant (in the lack of a better word) subject of racing fatalities so racing safety can be improved. Having lost two friends in racing accidents that could have been of lesser consequences, and not wanting to see the list grow further, I decided to attempt to do something. Once again thanks to all (including dozens of people at TNF) that have helped us in the last eight years of work.
Enough rambling... I just wanted to say thank you for any information - most particularly on Martin's life and career. We want to remember him for that, and not for his demise.
Regards to all,
Sal
PS: Once again sorry for being absent from TNF for such a long time. Work has gotten in the way of my life.
