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Sprinting at Ramsgate


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#1 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:31

http://www.ramsgateh...sg1129.html#new

I wonder if anyone here could identify these cars, perhaps their drivers and the year of the sprint. Clearly No126 is a Bugatti but which model? And No125? It also looks like a Fraser Nash Special in the background. The sprint took place along the Ramsgate Undercliff almost certainly in the 1950s as by the 1960s just motorcycles were raced - and only at one at a time unlike here.

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#2 fuzzi

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 08:12

The first use I can find for the Ramsgate Promenade for a Speed Trial was by the Veteran Car Club early in July 1938. The event took place on the day before the Club’s Concours d’Elegance. G.H. Eyre drove his 1902 Napier down from Barnsley and set btd with 39.6secs for the quarter-mile course. While Concours events became a regular feature at Ramsgate, the course was not used again until 16 July 1950 when the Isle of Thanet Motor Club organised speed trials. John Norris in his Alta Special set btd with 17.12secs. The 500yards course was used by a number of clubs with the Maidstone and Mid-Kent MC in primary control from July 1951.

As well as the car events motorcycle sprints were run along the course with some success and great enjoyment and it is believed that the Speed Trials continued to run with the sea on the left into the 1960s, but the events were not reported in the motoring press and after an accident they were brought to an end.

The newspaper clipping is from the meeting on Sunday 11 July 1954. The Autosport report noted that the usual head wind was absent which improved the times.

The single-seater on the right of the picture is obviously Frazer Nash based, and it could possibly be a Norris in one iteration. The Bugatti is identified in the Ramsgate Forum as a Type 45 but a Type 35 is more likely. The Frazer Nash behind is a Le Mans Replica.

Edited by fuzzi, 05 April 2011 - 08:21.


#3 Dutchy

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:09

The car on the right is indeed the first Norris Special (with the blown FWD Alvis engine turned back to front). IIRC it was owned by a chap named Hayward at the time.
The Bugatti I would suggest is a T35B judging by the late type larger radiator.

#4 David McKinney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:14

... though it is on wire wheels

#5 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 14:44

Thank you Gentlemen, terrific knowledge as expected ;-)

I watched the motorcycle sprints there during the 1960s which were run by the Sunbeam MCC, and they came to a halt for a number of reasons. By then the big bikes were on slicks which were hairy as the 1/4 mile course was on a gentle curve. The booming of the powerful bikes also caused lumps of chalk to fall from the cliffs onto the track. But the main reason was the death of Ian Ashwell on Brighton's Madeira Drive during the 60s when the bracket supporting his dustbin fairing of his Vincent 'Satan' snapped, the fairing dropping jamming the front wheel and sent bike and rider into a lamp post. Sprinting continued at Brighton but ended at Ramsgate.

Edited by Paul Rochdale, 05 April 2011 - 14:46.


#6 Red Socks

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:31

http://www.ramsgateh...sg1129.html#new

I wonder if anyone here could identify these cars, perhaps their drivers and the year of the sprint. Clearly No126 is a Bugatti but which model? And No125? It also looks like a Fraser Nash Special in the background. The sprint took place along the Ramsgate Undercliff almost certainly in the 1950s as by the 1960s just motorcycles were raced - and only at one at a time unlike here.

B E Bradnack (Bertie?) is taking part in a 1098 Cooper S so it must be 1960's, the absence of a single hat wearing spectator would also point that way as well.

#7 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:44

B E Bradnack (Bertie?) is taking part in a 1098 Cooper S so it must be 1960's, the absence of a single hat wearing spectator would also point that way as well.


Ooh err, I failed to notice that, thanks.

#8 Sharman

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:44

I am not so sure of that dating method. I note that Dick Fitzwilliam is there in a Lago Talbot and I suspect that the Cooper 1098s means an 1100 Supercharged Cooper JAP. Which is why it made FTD

#9 RogerFrench

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 11:58

I am not so sure of that dating method. I note that Dick Fitzwilliam is there in a Lago Talbot and I suspect that the Cooper 1098s means an 1100 Supercharged Cooper JAP. Which is why it made FTD


Agreed. I note from the newspaper clipping the presence of both Jaguara and Jaguette, too. That takes me back a year or several!

#10 Dutchy

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:15

[quote name='David McKinney' date='Apr 5 2011, 12:14' post='4939735']
... though it is on wire wheels
[/quote

I'm wondering if it's the car that Kenneth Neve had in the 1960s. That was a T35B with wire wheels. It later passed to Bernard Kain who put proper Bugatti wheels back on.

#11 Paul Rochdale

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 09:03

This newly discovered publicity film on Ramsgate in the 1950s, and with a commentary by McDonald Hobley, shows a brief clip of car sprinting, although as it's two cars at a time we'd now call it drag racing, along the Ramsgate Undercliff. 4min30sec to 4min50sec.



#12 RWB

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 10:32

If it helps narrow the search, I have programmes for the 1954 and '55 events and it's neither of those.

#13 Robin Fairservice

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 17:27

I went to the Ramsgate Speed Trials on July 7, 1953 on my bike from Herne Bay where we lived. I took my mother’s Box Brownie camera and this is a picture of the Pits:

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#14 Stephen W

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 08:55

I went to the Ramsgate Speed Trials on July 7, 1953 on my bike from Herne Bay where we lived. I took my mother’s Box Brownie camera and this is a picture of the Pits:

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They even have the paddock numbers painted on the roadway. Great photo - you can do wonders with a good old Box Brownie (my first camera).

:wave:

#15 fivestar

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 01:27

At the 13th July 1952 Ramsgate there was an Alta 1100cc running with competition #121.
Does anyone know who was the driver/entrant of this car?
Below is the picture already posted on the Alta racers thread post no 139
http://img89.imagesh...mage=1250op.jpg

thanks - Mike[5*]

#16 eolith

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 09:07

The Alta No 121 Sprinting at Ramsgate is superchared 1100 chassis number 25R1S Registration number DPJ929 .Originally supplied to A.C.Lace .This was the last 1100 constructed .Subsequent owners were Millard, May 36,Miller 39.Postwar it appeared at Goodwood and Brighton in the hands of Bristow.During the early fifties the supercharger was removed and four amals fitted .The nose panel was also altered to the form seen in the Ramsgate picture.I do not now who was driving it on this occasion.Subsequently offered for sale by Character cars in Croyden. McAlpine-Downie owned it during the late fifties..In 1961 it was with Dan Margulies who sold it to Allan Moore,then to Paul Jaye from whom I acquired it in about 1981.Now with Bob Thredder. David Baldock

#17 fivestar

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 09:27

Many thanks David, that clears up that mystery. I have seen a picture of Bristow driving it at Brighton, but was not sure if it was 24s or 25s. It was thought to be in Australia as the 1100cc Alta there had engine 25s.

Edited by fivestar, 20 April 2011 - 03:14.


#18 fivestar

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 22:30

David, one further question. When you acquired/sold the car did it still have the box shape nose cowling as pictured at Ramsgate? I note that in 1961 the asking price was Stg 295.00 a far cry from today.
thanks - Mike [5*]

Edited by fivestar, 20 April 2011 - 03:15.


#19 Pullman99

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 10:04

The Alta No 121 Sprinting at Ramsgate is superchared 1100 chassis number 25R1S Registration number DPJ929 .Originally supplied to A.C.Lace .This was the last 1100 constructed .Subsequent owners were Millard, May 36,Miller 39.Postwar it appeared at Goodwood and Brighton in the hands of Bristow.During the early fifties the supercharger was removed and four amals fitted .The nose panel was also altered to the form seen in the Ramsgate picture.I do not now who was driving it on this occasion.Subsequently offered for sale by Character cars in Croyden. McAlpine-Downie owned it during the late fifties..In 1961 it was with Dan Margulies who sold it to Allan Moore,then to Paul Jaye from whom I acquired it in about 1981.Now with Bob Thredder. David Baldock


I went on a private visit last weekend to the closed motor museum at Filching Manor. Amongst many items on display there - and with a notice suggesting that it might be a redundant nose cowling from an earlier version of Sir Malcolm Campbell's Blue Bird - was this nose section bearing the registration number DPJ 929. The DVLA still has this listed - and, indeed blue - as an Alta, first registered on 6th April 1936. Now, it's obvious that it isn't anything to do with Blue Bird but I just wondered if these pics add anything to the details already posted?

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Edited by Pullman99, 20 June 2011 - 10:05.


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#20 Pullman99

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 14:43

Just wondered if any Alta experts out there could throw any further light on this?



#21 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 20:37

Probably best to cross-post this in the Alta racers thread, Ian.

#22 Pullman99

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 05:44

Probably best to cross-post this in the Alta racers thread, Ian.


Ta for that. Duly done!


#23 Rupertlt1

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 16:44

NORTH LONDON & HERTS COUNTY A.C. SPEED TRIALS
(July 13)

Fastest time of day: E. Lloyd Jones (Triangle Flying Saucer) 14.51 sec
Fastest sports-car time: W. Coleman (Jaguette) 15.75 sec
Fastest saloon car: R.R.C. Walker (DB2 Aston-Martin) 19.20 sec
Fastest 500-c.c. racing car: D. Parker (Kieft) 16.82 sec
Ladies' Prize: Mrs. R. Sarginson (XK120 Jaguar) 18.22 sec
Source: Motor Sport, August 1952, Page 354.

I believe this is the Ramsgate event although the article does not say so.
Note the motor club title is a joint effort by two clubs.

I recently found a can of film here in Canada, circa 1952, with Brighton Speed Trials on the label. Imagine the excitement.
On viewing the film I found a marvelous clip but not Brighton!

I think the film is of the same event shown here:

http://www.oldclassi...1950racing3.htm

See:
These photos look to be at a vintage sprint in 1951 - perhaps in Jersey? ....

I've written to Old Classic Car pointing out this is Ramsgate.

Does anybody have any program, paperwork ref Ramsgate, July 13, 1952?

#24 Rupertlt1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:53

Two fragments rounded up from elsewhere on this BBS:

Patsy Burt: Her first sprint was at Ramsgate in 1954.

An Autosport magazine article of August 31, 1956 says:
“Although the Maidstone and Mid-Kent M.C.’s Ramsgate Speed Trials last Sunday were held in sunshine, a strong, gusty wind did a great deal to disturb the running of the event, by causing pieces of paper, seaweed and even grains of sand to trigger off the rather too sensitive electronic timing device. But despite many re-runs, everyone had two drives along the course, the best time of the day falling to John Ogier and his attractive, fast, Jaguar engined Tojeiro, while C.T. Atkins (Mercedes 300SL) beat Rob Walker’s similar car in Class G by .35 sec., additionally making third B.T.D”. (2nd B.T.D. was B.H. Clinkard - Alvis). Rob Walker was the winner in the runs at Saloon class C.

We should be able to patch together a proper history of this event?

#25 Rupertlt1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 13:53

MAIDSTONE & MID-KENT M.C.
RAMSGATE SPEED TRIALS (July 15th)
FASTEST TIME OF THE DAY: E. Lloyd-Jones, (Triangle Flying-Saucer) 13.97 sec
FASTEST SPORTS CAR: Gordon Parker, (Jaguette) 16.45 sec
FASTEST ROAD-EQUIPPED SPORTS CAR: V. J. Hern, (Amilcar) 17.52 sec
FASTEST SALOON CAR: R. Walker, (Aston-Martin) 20.09 sec
FASTEST TIME BY A LADY: Mrs. Lorna Snow, (Jaguar XK120) 18.85 sec
FASTEST 500-c.c. CAR: Claude Tipper (Monaco-Norton) 17.94 sec
Source: Motor Sport, August 1951, Page 376.

#26 Rupertlt1

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 20:20

1952:
Herts County Automobile and Aero Club, July 13,
in conjunction with the North London Enthusiasts'
Car Club, speed trials, Western Undercliff Drive,
Ramsgate. Invited Clubs:
Bugatti, Half-Litre, Falcon, Berkhamsted and
W. Essex. Secretary D.T. Russell, 18 Queen's
Rd., Watford.

#27 Rupertlt1

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 18:19

The Autocar, 31 August 1956, Page 900:
RAMSGATE
Speed Trials

In a sunny holiday atmosphere, the
National Speed Trials, organized by
the Maidstone and Mid-Kent Motor
Club, were held on Ramsgate's Weston
Undercliffe (sic) road last Sunday. The
course is a curving quarter-mile of con-
crete, with promenade and the North Sea
to the left and sheer cliff to the right.
Holiday-makers who chanced upon this
scene, thronged the paddock (the road
behind the starting line) or watched the
competitors unleashed in pairs along the
course.
Sports cars predominated in the entry
list, but in the two racing car classes-
under 500 c.c. and over 2,500 c.c.-Don
Parker (Cooper-Norton) took the former
by 0.19 sec from R.F. Mayne (Cooper-
Norton) and, in the larger class, J. Ogier
(Tojeiro with D-type Jaguar engine) was
nearly half a second faster than B.H.
Clinkard's single-seater, supercharged
4.3-litre Alvis.
Ogier's second run in the unlimited
sports car class proved to be the fastest
of the day at 14.59 sec, his getaway and
acceleration being very spectacular.
The sea was perhaps a little too evi-
dent, for competitors had to contend with
spray blowing over the sea wall, and with
a stiff wind, which made for slower times.
Two 300SL Mercedes enlivened the
3-litre sports car class, the blue and
silver car of G.T. Atkins (sic) just beating
Rob Walker's white model. In the class
for saloons and dropheads over 2,500 c.c.
this order was reversed, but Patsy Burt
(Aston Martin DB2-4), who made an im-
peccable getaway, was a close third and
won the ladies' prize.
R. Bloxam's single run in his Lotus-
M.G. won him the 1,500 c.c. sports car
class, and C.P. McNaughton's Elva the
1,172 c.c. class from M.A. Bears's very
well turned-out Denmark Special-
Morris Eight with Ford Ten Engine.
Class B-saloons and dropheads, 1,301
to 2,500 c.c.- was a Porsche versus A.C.
battle, J. Patten's Aceca being fastest on
the first runs but S. Wilder (Porsche)
clinching matters on the second attempt.
Denis Jenkinson was, unfortunately, a
non-starter in the class with his Porsche.

PROVISIONAL RESULTS

Fastest time of day: Tojeiro 3,442 (J. Ogier)
14.59 sec. Second fastest: Alvis 4,387s (B.H.
Clinkard), 15.23 sec. Third fastest: Mercedes-Benz
2,996 (G.T. Atkins) (sic), 15.95 sec.
Fastest sports car: J. Ogier
Fastest saloon Car: G.T. Atkins (sic)
Ladies' award: Aston Martin DB2-4 (Miss
P. Burt), 16.88sec
Saloons and drop head coupes up to 1,300 c.c.:
Morris Minor 1,098 (T.W. Brown), 22.90 sec. 1,301
to 2,500: 1. Porsche 1,488 (S. Wilder), 18.04 sec;
2. A.C. Aceca 1,971 (J. Patten), 18.15sec; 3.
Porsche 1,582 (G.W. Yates), 18.95 sec. Over 2,500:
1. Mercedes-Benz 2,996 (R.R. Walker), 16.34 sec
2. Mercedes-Benz 2,996 (G.T. Atkins) 16.61 sec
Sports cars up to 1,172 c.c.: 1. Elva 1,098 (C.P.
McNaughton), 17.87 sec; 2. Denmark Spl 1,172
(M.A. Beare), 20.75 sec. 1,173 to 1,500: 1. Lotus-
M.G. 1,467 (R. Bloxam), 17.42 sec; 2. Lotus-M.G.
1,496 (I.H. Smith) 17.77 sec; 3. M.G. 1,496 (A.
Brown) 17.95 sec. 1,501 to 2,000: 1. Frazer-Nash
1,971 (A. Brown), 17.90 sec; 2. Frazer-Nash 1,971
(S. Daniel), 17.92 sec. 2,001 to 3,000: 1. Mercedes-
Benz 2,996 (G.T. Atkins), 15.95 sec; 2. Mercedes-
Benz 2,996 (R.R. Walker), 16.30 sec; 3. Aston
Martin 2,992 (Miss P. Burt), 16.88 sec. Over 3,000:
1. Tojeiro 3,442 (J. Ogier), 14.59 sec; 2. Allard
4,850 (L.S. Davies), 17.34 sec; 3. Jaguar 3,442
(A. Jarvis), 17.40 sec. Racing cars up to 500 c.c.
1. Cooper 497 (D. Parker), 16.82 sec; Cooper 497
(R.F. Mayne), 16.97 sec. Over 2,500: 1. Tojeiro
3,442 (J. Ogier), 14.74 sec; 2. Alvis 4387s (B.H.
Clinkard), 15.23 sec; 3. Alvis 4387s (D.G.
Godfrey), 16.05 sec.
Note: Winners of major awards were not eligible
for class prizes, which went to the next fastest
in the classes concerned.

Edited by Rupertlt1, 22 December 2012 - 09:48.


#28 Rupertlt1

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 13:01

SUMMARY
Sunday 15 July 1951: E Lloyd-Jones (21,000 Triangle Flying Saucer) 13.97 sec
Sunday 13 July 1952: E Lloyd-Jones (21,000 Triangle Flying Saucer) 14.51 sec
Sunday 19 July 1953: Bertie Bradnack (1,098 Cooper S) 14.26 sec
Sunday 11 July 1954: Bertie Bradnack (1,098 Cooper S) 13.47 sec
17 July 1955: Chris Summers (Farley Spl) 31.69 secs *
26 August 1956: John Ogier (Tojeiro-Jaguar) 14.59 sec

* See: The Autocar, 22 July 1955, Page 139. In the morning they ran on the regular course. In the afternoon they had two attempts on the same course but with a straw-bale chicane introduced about 100 yards from the startline. "This changed the event a little, the results being calculated on an aggregate of the morning's straight run and the afternoon's run plus dog-leg."

Edited by Rupertlt1, 19 November 2013 - 13:43.