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The Red Bull Myth


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#1 Alfisti

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 18:49

Reading comments in practice it almost appears as though people WANT RBR to be 3 seconds a lap faster even if they support another team. Every time they turn a fast lap there is this collective sigh of "the season's over". Whilst RBR have pace they do not seem to be this invincible force so many members of this board seem to think they are. In the last race Lewis ran Seb pretty darn close once they settled after the first lap mayhem. Yesterday Button got pretty damn close as well yet we hear a chorus of "RBR have 9 seconds a lap in their pocket".

To me it looks a lot like the first 2/3rds of last year, somehow the RB is fast over a lap but come race day is often only barely faster than Mclaren. Not all is lost people, it's not 2002 or 2004 from what I can see and the whole KERS thing may yet see RBR struggle on race day as they are pummelled off the line and on the straights.

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#2 primer

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 18:58

Indeed, they are not as quick as people pretend they are. Lewis almost matched Vettel in Australia in race pace, but with a damaged underfloor. Teams all run different programs in practice so those times are meaningless anyway.

Let's wait for tomorrow's qualifying (and also Sunday's race, if possible) before declaring the RBR car to be this juggernaut built with alien technology. Ferrari might be in doldrums but I fully expect Mclaren to give a strong challenge to RBR not just in Malaysia, but all through the season.

#3 Massa

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:05

Lol, if Lewis almost matched Vettel race pace it's because Vettel control the race, with all this stupid rules about engine, gear box, regim limit at 18000 etc, if you know that you are the fastest, it's not necessary to push the car like a hell, you have just to be faster than the second, even if you can lap one second faster.

It's not like in 2004 when the F1 was a sprint.

I'm sure RBR can go one second faster than the second if they want, but it's not necessary for them. Since 2006 F1 is not a sprint, the driver have to preserve everything and they have to be gentle with the car.

Edited by Massa, 08 April 2011 - 19:08.


#4 korzeniow

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:07

Lewis didn't match Vettel's pace. Sometimes it was close because Vettel let him, Vettel had win in his pocket and race totally under his control.

Edited by korzeniow, 08 April 2011 - 19:08.


#5 Jeag

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:13

At no point did Lewis match Vettels' pace, Vettel was the lead car and knew what he had in hand so controlled the race. I figured after 2010 people would have realised The lead car does not win by 30 seconds like used to happen in 2004 and such, It isn't the best way to complete a race safely.

#6 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:14

I guess it's a myth they led every single lap, got pole, and won.

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#7 hunnylander

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:23

At no point did Lewis match Vettels' pace,

Posted Image

Lewis was constantly closing the gap on the majority of the first stint!

Clearly Vettel wanted to gather and keep a safety margin ahead of the pit stops but he couldn't and destroyed his tyres earlier (alas the earlier tyre change saved his ass).

The RB7 is the fastest of the field, was in Melbourne, but they are overhyped by the pundits, 'experts' and a big segment of the fans. It's just trendy 'safe bet' to sing in the chorus.

Edited by hunnylander, 08 April 2011 - 19:26.


#8 primer

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:24

I guess it's a myth they led every single lap, got pole, and won.

:rolleyes:

You say as if this has never happened in F1 earlier. Many teams have dominated over a particular race weekend, and yet it has had been close battle over the season.

Shame we don't have any psychologists on board. There must be a nice technical term (no, not defeatism) for this phenomenon where people intentionally delude themselves into believing that an entity or object is more powerful than it truly is.

#9 Kvothe

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:40

Posted Image

Lewis was constantly closing the gap on the majority of the first stint!

Clearly Vettel wanted to gather and keep a safety margin ahead of the pit stops but he couldn't and destroyed his tyres earlier (alas the earlier tyre change saved his ass).

The RB7 is the fastest of the field, was in Melbourne, but they are overhyped by the pundits, 'experts' and a big segment of the fans. It's just trendy 'safe bet' to sing in the chorus.

:up:

Yeah.... Vettel was controlling the first stint, right until he begain claiming rear tyre degradation, and Lewis closed up on him to just 1.5 seconds, :stoned:

Edited by Kvothe, 08 April 2011 - 19:57.


#10 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:44

Shame we don't have any psychologists on board. There must be a nice technical term (no, not defeatism) for this phenomenon where people intentionally delude themselves into believing that an entity or object is more powerful than it truly is.


Or, maybe the most obvious answer is the right one.

#11 pingu666

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:45

you dont let anyone, get as close as lewis got to seb in aus, specialy someone whos likely to have a go ;).
maybe as the race went on sebs pace improved relativly.

watched fp1 and the gap seemed bigger than in mebourne, so who knows

#12 BRK

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:54

Everybody's a sadist/masochist at heart. What we're seeing this season is a sort of get-together and collective lament party for fans of rival teams and drivers. It's fashionable to wildly exaggerate Red Bull's true margin over the rest (or at least make it sound insurmountable) and everyone has a different reason for joining in. To some it's a ready excuse to explain away Vettel's performances or their favoured team/driver's poor showing, to some others (such as myself) it's a fascinating insight into what the world outside of the Ferrari/Schumacher axis might have gone through all those years of Schumacher dominance....and so on.

Thing is that history will remember 2011 (and 2010) as the year of Red Bull dominance, no matter how many other teams happen to win or be in with a realistic chance of winning throughout the season. 99% of what people remember from a season has always been about the end-of-season impressions, it's always the last act that matters. So whether or not it's a myth at this point is irrelevant because if Red Bull do indeed clinch both titles that is all they'll talk about for years to come.

#13 Alfisti

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:57

Everybody's a sadist/masochist at heart. What we're seeing this season is a sort of get-together and collective lament party for fans of rival teams and drivers. It's fashionable to wildly exaggerate Red Bull's true margin over the rest (or at least make it sound insurmountable) and everyone has a different reason for joining in. To some it's a ready excuse to explain away Vettel's performances or their favoured team/driver's poor showing,


Best post in years.

#14 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 19:58

Vettel grew all of his lead with two very fast opening laps. Hamilton gradually decreased the gap on until Vettel's tyres went off when the gap reduced very quickly:
3.4s after 3 laps, 2.8s after 12 laps, just over a second before Vettel pitted at the end of lap 14*.

Now if Hamilton was in flat-out mode and Vettel was pacing himself, it doesn't bode well for the RBR tyre conservation! I think the truth is that both Vettel and Lewis could have gone significantly quicker on any given lap but they both had to pace themselves to make the tyres last a decent number of laps. So yes Vettel could easily have picked up the pace by the few tenths required to match or beat Hamilton, but in do so his tyres would have gone off too quickly; as it was his tyres already lasted 3 or so laps less than Hamilton's.

I reckon neither driver could have completed the first 14 laps any quicker without inducing a pitstop, and the ~1.25 second gap was representitive of their maximum pace; thus if they pace themselves for equal tyre wear, the RBR had about 0.1s per lap advantage over the McLaren**. That's a significant advantage, but certainly not The Myth.

* first two times are from the Autosport laptime page, the third is from memory of that was shown on-screen at the second sector timing point just prior to Vettel pitting.
** in Melbourne; extrapolate at your own risk.

Edited by MrAerodynamicist, 08 April 2011 - 20:01.


#15 ktsayshi

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 20:03

Shame we don't have any psychologists on board. There must be a nice technical term (no, not defeatism) for this phenomenon where people intentionally delude themselves into believing that an entity or object is more powerful than it truly is.


By its nature, a delusion is a belief an individual clings to in the face of all evidence and despite what his or her peers believe. You might be looking for the term "article of faith."  ;)

#16 hunnylander

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:00

Vettel grew all of his lead with two very fast opening laps.

When Hamilton struggled to heat up the tyres, who also did a sub-optimal start.

That's the other side of the coin. It wasn't purely down to Vettel to build a gap quickly.

#17 domhnall

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:04

Ya people need to relax and let things play out. Its a long long season, the performance of the cars will undoubtedly change of the the course of it. Even if Red bull dominate the first few races, as long as mclaren stay reliable and keep the points ticking over in the early, they can still challenge for the title. I agree strongly with the above comment of about hamilton running vettel hard early on in aus. That strong first stint was ignored for some reason by a lot of people including many in the media.

#18 DrF

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:16

It's fashionable to wildly exaggerate Red Bull's true margin over the rest (or at least make it sound insurmountable) and everyone has a different reason for joining in.


Strange how it's not the RedBull fans who are beating the drum about this.;)

#19 freya

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:18

A problem in F1 is that most of the followers seem to have short memories. There were so many races where people had won with 30-35 second margin, yet didn't win championships; I am talking about 2000s, not too far back.

Look at the media... "Vettel DOMINATES Melbourne".... really? I don't know if these people watched the same race as I did or not... Either I have a false definition of dominition or being 8-9 second in front of the next guy for most of the race while he has a piece of metal sticking out of the bottom of the car just is not dominating. It's simply winning, like 90% of all other F1 races.

Yes, people like to hype RBR, hype newey or hype vettel. That's why I really would like to see FIA get on the top of their game and do some proper testing. The hype and the resulting arrogance is just unbearable.

Edited by freya, 08 April 2011 - 21:20.


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#20 syph0nJZ05

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:19

Lewis didn't match Vettel's pace. Sometimes it was close because Vettel let him, Vettel had win in his pocket and race totally under his control.

Lol. Ye Vettel thought 'I know I will let Lewis close this 5 seconds gap I have opened up to just 1 second before the pit-stops'. Nice and comfy :drunk: .

#21 nol

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:24

RB has quali pace, they drop off a lot in race pace. And yeah it's the car, not non RB drivers being super heroes like I am sure some people fantasize. Happened a lot last year, will happen a lot this year too.

#22 KateLM

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 21:36

There is some truth in all of this. I can't count how many times I've seen the RB6 referred to as a second-a-lap (or more) quicker than the opposition last year on internet forums, but at the majority of races that simply was not true. From memory, they had that sort of gap at Barcelona, Silverstone, Hungary and Suzuka - thats only 4 races out of 19. Its almost like some sort of self-flagellation from fans of other teams to believe that Red Bull are always that far ahead. And to be honest, I think fans of certain drivers use it to justify why their guys couldn't win the WDC and why they are definitely much better than Vettel and/or Webber. Which I'm not saying is definitely untrue, but the reasoning for it is way exaggerated.

#23 2ms

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:00

I personally don't think it's any kind of masochism at all. I think it's just excuse making for people's favorite drivers.

Hamilton and Alonso made almost unbelievable numbers of mistakes last year. I personally can't recall the last season a driver was able to win the WDC despite a quantity of driving errors equal to Alonso's and Hamilton's last year. But no one wants to say "my driver sucked last season".

Instead, it's much nicer and more comforting to think "No driver could have won against Red Bull last season". It's just human nature from where I see things.

#24 korzeniow

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:06

A problem in F1 is that most of the followers seem to have short memories. There were so many races where people had won with 30-35 second margin, yet didn't win championships; I am talking about 2000s, not too far back.

Look at the media... "Vettel DOMINATES Melbourne".... really? I don't know if these people watched the same race as I did or not... Either I have a false definition of dominition or being 8-9 second in front of the next guy for most of the race while he has a piece of metal sticking out of the bottom of the car just is not dominating. It's simply winning, like 90% of all other F1 races.

Yes, people like to hype RBR, hype newey or hype vettel. That's why I really would like to see FIA get on the top of their game and do some proper testing. The hype and the resulting arrogance is just unbearable.


No one challenged Vettel for the win. He dominated the whole weekend. The fact that Hamilton pushed his car to the limits didn't make it harder for Vettel to win.

#25 Peppe

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:07

In the end we all know that they are just a drinks company.

#26 puxanando

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:09

In the end we all know that they are just a drinks company.

:up: think the same.....

#27 velgajski1

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:11

I personally don't think it's any kind of masochism at all. I think it's just excuse making for people's favorite drivers.

Hamilton and Alonso made almost unbelievable numbers of mistakes last year. I personally can't recall the last season a driver was able to win the WDC despite a quantity of driving errors equal to Alonso's and Hamilton's last year. But no one wants to say "my driver sucked last season".

Instead, it's much nicer and more comforting to think "No driver could have won against Red Bull last season". It's just human nature from where I see things.


Well, I think that Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel all did approx same amount of mistakes, but Webber outdid them all, and yet he almost won the title. So, yeah, RBR was the best car of last season, and in my opinion most dominant car in F1 since Renault in 2005.

#28 krapmeister

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:16

There is some truth in all of this. I can't count how many times I've seen the RB6 referred to as a second-a-lap (or more) quicker than the opposition last year on internet forums, but at the majority of races that simply was not true. From memory, they had that sort of gap at Barcelona, Silverstone, Hungary and Suzuka - thats only 4 races out of 19. Its almost like some sort of self-flagellation from fans of other teams to believe that Red Bull are always that far ahead. And to be honest, I think fans of certain drivers use it to justify why their guys couldn't win the WDC and why they are definitely much better than Vettel and/or Webber. Which I'm not saying is definitely untrue, but the reasoning for it is way exaggerated.


:up:

If Alonso/Hamilton win it'll be like 'ZOMG! (Insert driver here) have amazing superhuman powers to be able to drag that truck ahead of the Fastest Car Ever Made™ with it's Cheating Flexy Wing®...'

Since 2009 especially, we have seen car performance being very track dependent - so quite apart from the FP times, people need to take into account the track characteristics too. Indeed RBR may well be superquick on a track like Malaysia/Barcelona/Hungary but they generally come back to the field on others.

Also - considering where Mclaren was in testing and where they are now - Mclaren fans should be more optimistic when you take into account how relatively close they appear to be despite chasing the wrong development path wrt the 'octopus'. IMO they have quite a bit of potential to unlock. And Ferrari might be struggling a bit now, but they will surely improve as the season goes on...

#29 korzeniow

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:22

In the end we all know that they are just a drinks company.


Yeah, and this "just" drink company beats teams with long motorsport history third year in a row. Think about that....

:lol:


#30 P123

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:26

Is this the denial thread for Red BUll being the best car (as it has been since mid-2009)?

#31 2ms

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:40

In the end we all know that they are just a drinks company.


What does this even mean?


#32 Madras

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:43

Red Bull is faster. No myth involved douchebags.

#33 luicchi

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:50

myth???what the hell you talking about...Lotus was a myth too with Senna and guess what...the Myth was over!!!let´s drink it ...just that!!!

#34 Slowinfastout

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:56

If Vettel didn't have a little crack in his chassis early last season, if he didn't crash into his teammate and had a clue how to manage the Safety Car, he'd have walked it... :)

Red Bull car was and is fast, no myth..

#35 flyer121

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:57

Well, I think that Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel all did approx same amount of mistakes, but Webber outdid them all, and yet he almost won the title. So, yeah, RBR was the best car of last season, and in my opinion most dominant car in F1 since Renault in 2005.

Really ! webber ,,, mistakes ?? 2010 ? Most?
Can you pass me that joint!

Edited by flyer121, 08 April 2011 - 23:00.


#36 korzeniow

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 22:59

Really ,, webber ,,, mistakes ??
Can you pass me that joint!


Australia, Korea, Valencia

#37 flyer121

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 23:01

Australia, Korea, Valencia

Oops... Sorry Edited the post!

#38 BiH

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 23:24

Is this the denial thread for Red BUll being the best car (as it has been since mid-2009)?


very much so.


when every driver/team personal say red bull is the quickest car then.....


in melbourne it was obvious sebastian was controlling race and lewis was not once in position to attack him.

if it doesn't rain (very unlikely) red bull will easily walk away with the race.

#39 krapmeister

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 23:25

Red Bull is faster. No myth involved douchebags.


I think the issue is not that the Red Bull is faster, but that it isn't light years faster as some people make it out to be...

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#40 nol

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 23:31

in melbourne it was obvious sebastian was controlling race and lewis was not once in position to attack him.


Seb was controlling the pace at the end of the race. And nursing his tyres. At the start of the race it was obvious Lewis was catching him at a great rate of speed and he pretty much had to pit early to try to cover Lewis' old(er) rubber and maintain track position. Unless you think Seb just let Lewis come to within a second or so of him before first pitstops because he was "controlling" it.

Nobody argues that Red Bull isn't the fastest car out there. People argue it's not a second a lap faster like quali might make you believe.

#41 DILLIGAF

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Posted 08 April 2011 - 23:47

:up:

If Alonso/Hamilton win it'll be like 'ZOMG! (Insert driver here) have amazing superhuman powers to be able to drag that truck ahead of the Fastest Car Ever Made™ with it's Cheating Flexy Wing®...'

Since 2009 especially, we have seen car performance being very track dependent - so quite apart from the FP times, people need to take into account the track characteristics too. Indeed RBR may well be superquick on a track like Malaysia/Barcelona/Hungary but they generally come back to the field on others.

Also - considering where Mclaren was in testing and where they are now - Mclaren fans should be more optimistic when you take into account how relatively close they appear to be despite chasing the wrong development path wrt the 'octopus'. IMO they have quite a bit of potential to unlock. And Ferrari might be struggling a bit now, but they will surely improve as the season goes on...


+1

You pretty much nailed it there krapmeister. :up:



#42 Sausage

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 00:08

I think the issue is not that the Red Bull is faster, but that it isn't light years faster as some people make it out to be...


But well even if it's "only" 0,5s per lap that's still almost a lightyear in F1 :lol:

#43 Bunchies

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 01:44

But well even if it's "only" 0,5s per lap that's still almost a lightyear in F1 :lol:


light-year   
[lahyt-yeer, -yeer] Show IPA
–noun
1.
Astronomy . the distance traversed by light in one mean solar year, about 5.88 trillion mi. (9.46 trillion km): used as a unit in measuring stellar distances. Abbreviation: lt-yr



#44 Cenotaph

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 02:10

Some ppl just can't handle the fact that a team/driver does better than those they back up, so they create these myths.

#45 sheepgobba

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 02:34

Some ppl just can't handle the fact that a team/driver does better than those they back up, so they create these myths.



This :up:

#46 HopkinsonF1

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 06:19

Yeah, and this "just" drink company beats teams with long motorsport history third year in a row. Think about that....

:lol:


Just to clarify, Hamilton never said they were "just" a drinks company. He said they were "a drinks company"; the "just" was a journalist's addition to make a better headline, and their words have slowly replaced Hamilton's until nobody remembers what he actually said.

#47 Callahan

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 06:59

It's a bit sad to tell you the truth. Most supporters of teams other than Red Bull think there cheating. The front wing saga has been absolutely flogged to death for 18 months but finally this week Ross Brawn has acknowledged that, yes Red Bull have a great car, the wing is legal because it has passed every test and maybe the rest of us need to pull our finger out and catch up.

#48 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:11

While I think Vettel only had ~0.1s a lap advantage over Lewis, RBR do have KERS this weekend. That must surely be the biggest upgrade on the grid this weekend, so I expect them to have a bit more advantage this weekend (if they don't break down....)

#49 flyer121

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:33

Holy moly ... Macca is faster than the RB7 going by the FP3 times!!

#50 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 April 2011 - 07:35

It's a bit sad to tell you the truth. Most supporters of teams other than Red Bull think there cheating. The front wing saga has been absolutely flogged to death for 18 months but finally this week Ross Brawn has acknowledged that, yes Red Bull have a great car, the wing is legal because it has passed every test and maybe the rest of us need to pull our finger out and catch up.


You mean like when people screamed absolute murder in 2006 over Ferrari flexi-bits?