147 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

I've certainly not seen it before...

Probably should be on the 'Personal Photos of Australian Motor Racing' thread. A really good pic for the era.

[Ray Bell]

Car 4 is Harvey...

The number of cars with 'bi-wing' arrangements is more than interesting. But this line-up is full of interest.

First, there's no Bartlett, even though he was the pace man of the sub-era, Gold Star Champion and all. He had a smallpox injection for his trip to Japan and reacted badly to it, so Bathurst didn't see him. Also absent was the venerable Coventry-Climax FPF 4-cylinder engine, so often the power behind the winner of this race and always there since its first appearance in 1956. One was entered, but when Col Green crashed in practice it failed to start.

Geoghegan on pole and Harvey on the inside of the second row had both had major accidents at this meeting a year earlier, and Harvey had only just returned to racing a little while before this.

The 1600cc cars with 4-valve per cylinder heads were also showing real strength. Niel Allen second on the grid with a 2:16.5 (compared to Geoghegan's 2:15.7 with the 2.5-litre SOHC Repco engine) and Max Stewart's Waggott-powered Rennmax doing 2:16.8. Glyn Scott was on the second row with a 2:20.4 while no mention is made in reports of Costanzo in the Osborne M4a.

Harvey had equalled Stewart's time in the second session while Brian Page having his first run in the Brabham-Repco did 2:23.1 and Brabham was in the middle of the third row on 2:26.1 accomplished on what must have been a standing lap as he only got one good lap in before the flag fell over practice.

Page's car is barely visible in the smoke, while Clive Millis' Rennmax is the black car ahead of Henk Woelders' white Elfin while Alton Boddenberg is in the black Lotus 32 and, largely obscured, is Malcolm Bailey in the Peugeot 403-powered Elfin.

Millis clearly made a poor start and gave room for Jack to start his rush through the field...



How different might this race have been if Stewart hadn't lost it over Skyline on the first lap and taken Allen and Scott with him?





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Edited by Ray Bell, 01 February 2018 - 01:54.

[TerryS]

Not sure why you only copied the one photo?
 
The full article is very interesting with other great photos

https://primotipo.co...ham-1970-et-al/

[MarkBisset]

Hi folks,

This one might be of interest too, it rambles on a bit but has quite a few shots by Dick Simpson / Lindsay's ORP of Bathurst '69 but which have now disappeared into the TNF ether.

The current owners claims for BT31-1 are nice works of Enid Blyton-esque fiction, only 'The Famous Five' are missing. Anybody considering that kinda acquisition will do all the sensible searches, the article Rodway and I did pops up which is rather closer to the facts I suspect so don't sweat it Rob!

https://primotipo.co...asman-brabhams/

Mark

[bill p]

Why can't the owner use a properly speced with the proper colour scheme???
Bill P

[rms]

Is the gearbox in question an FT200 ? ...... or is it an FG400 or later version ? (FGA,FGB) it is not easy to pick the difference ! And so far as I know they ALL use FT gears.

 

The FG was built for the DFV, I can't say all but most DFV engined cars ran the FG400.

Edited by rms, 18 March 2018 - 02:08.

[SJ Lambert]

[TerryS]

Rob, I think you are overly concerned about the possibility that the the spurious history claimed for the BT31 might somehow be formalised. Firstly anyone considering paying a million dollars for the car would surely seek documentary evidence of the claimed F1 connection and, even if it does change hands on the basis of that tale, it will never be eligible to compete in historic racing events as an F1 car. The car’s CAMS documentation properly records the the Tasman and Bathurst history and that will follow the car through any change of ownership and will not change.

Any application for FIA papers could also only be based on the car’s competition history in the Tasman series and the Bathurst gold star race as there is no other basis for issue of a HTP. The car is eminently eligible for a HTP but if issued the document would show the correct engine capacity as 2.5 litres and the car would be classified as a Tasman car rather than an F1. There is simply no basis for anything else!

The Brabham BT 31 was driven by Peter Strauss at last week's Tasman Festival at Eastern Creek. It was entered in Group O for pre December 1969 race cars.

In programme its engine was stated as 3.0L. I thought this not allowed for Group O.

It's interesting that in its last race on Sunday it only beat home the locally built Milano GT2 sports car by less than a second over 5 laps. But the Milano had a faster lap than the Brabham

This is surprising as the Milano is a very basic car powered by a Holden 6 cylinder of 3.3L.

[opplock]

This is surprising as the Milano is a very basic car powered by a Holden 6 cylinder of 3.3L.

 

There is a very wide range of driver ability in historic racing....

[Sisyphus]

What is that rod end and tube for that is tie wrapped to the brake line?

 

Beautiful set of photos!

[TerryS]

The Brabham BT31 was raced by Peter Strauss at last weekend's Tasman Festival at Eastern Creek.

It was entered in Group O (i.e. pre December 1969 cars) but fitted with the 3 litre engine. I did not think this was allowed under Historic rules!

It was interesting in that its last race on Sunday it only won by a second over 5 laps over the Milano GT2 sports car. The Milano had the fastest lap of the race.

That puts it in perspective as the Milano is a very low spec basic car powered by a 3.3L Holden 6.

[Lee Nicolle]

The Brabham BT31 was raced by Peter Strauss at last weekend's Tasman Festival at Eastern Creek.

It was entered in Group O (i.e. pre December 1969 cars) but fitted with the 3 litre engine. I did not think this was allowed under Historic rules!

It was interesting in that its last race on Sunday it only won by a second over 5 laps over the Milano GT2 sports car. The Milano had the fastest lap of the race.

That puts it in perspective as the Milano is a very low spec basic car powered by a 3.3L Holden 6.

Either a better steerer in the Milano or the Brabham was simply winning by the least possible margin. And probably some of both.

[TerryS]

According to an article in the VHRR Sandown Historic program 2018,the BT31 is a Formula one car that Brabham never raced due to fuel bag restrictions or similar,perhaps this is why the Historic Commission allows the 3.0 litre engine , the 2.5 litre engine which I understands is fresh and  is      sitting on display .

I would have thought the VHRR was knowledgeable enough to not believe this rubbish, especially with all the evidence against the car.

It was only a F3 car with a Repco V8 stuck in the back. No more, no less.

Surely someone should protest about it.

[Lee Nicolle]

Has a precedent now been set within Australian Historics by the powers to be .To run oversized engines as per the 3 litre ran in this car?

 

Will in future see Porsche 911s of legal capacity in group SC running 3.5litre instead of 2.7 or 3.0l

 

Or Twin cams and BDA s ect running 2 litre in various groups?

 

Or Ford 289s running out to stoked limits in group NB

 

Or Formula Fords stroked out to 1800cc?

 

I can't get my head around a car  being allowed an over capacity motor in Group M/O

We did see Mustangs with stroker cranks, plus ofcourse Nb Mustangs using later gearboxes,,, and 6 bolt bellhousing blocks.

Yet EHs were being clamped down on for  being [slightly] over 3 litre and at one stage had to run EH HP blocks

There has been all sorts of silliness happen in GP n and still does.

That and for the powerfull cars there is no real tyre option. Out of date Yoko 032 or humungous Hoosiers.

 

The M O cars it appears have often been fat as well as are some of the big sporties. Plus ofcourse with all of these categories so much modern stuff. 5000s with sheetmetal valve covers and modern intakes. Or Holden V8s using VN engines!!

I suspect if some of those 5000s engines were CCd they would be closer to 6 litre as well.

[Paul Hamilton]

It is my understanding that the CAMS CoD for the BT31 still shows the engine capacity as the correct 2.5 litre.  That being the case it would have been in breach of the CAMS regulations if it was entered and programmed as 3 litres at Eastern Creek.  Responsibilty for that would lie with the entrant and the event organiser rather than CAMS unless the discrepancy were drawn to the attention of the Stewards.

 

The regulations do require that the CoD should be available for examination when the car is scrutineered but, in my experience,  event organisers in Australia only very rarely do look at the document and I expect that is exactly what happened (or did not happen!) at Eastern Creek. 

 

I believe that the rod end and tube shown in the photo in post 81 would be intended to operate a currently disconnected steering damper.

[MarkBisset]

I've always thought it a shame Jack didn't give the car a gallop during the 1970 Tasman Series, it was a low mileage unit after all.
But Jack's Repco commitments were done and dusted post Indy in 1969 I guess.
Graeme Lawrence won in Chris' Dino as you all know ahead of the F5000's.
Surely Jack with the latest Repco 830 motor and the body and wing package from the BT30 would have given everyone a bit of a run for their money?!
Jack was on fire in 1970 after all...
Mark

[Paul Hamilton]

Overtime the 289s were sorted and people fined .M/O yes there was the odd Ford pushrod with a Datsun 1600 crank?

 

But nothing this stand out where its in the face of all as being run ,even listed at a 3000cc car .

 

Rob, the use of a Datsun crank in group M or O is quite legal provided it is reground to the original Ford stroke.  I believe that many cars have used such reground cranks as it is a lot cheaper than a bespoke steel item.  In all the CAMS historic groups for sports and racing cars internal engine components are free provided:

• the standard stroke is retained;
• the bore is no more than 1.5mm greater than original;
• roller rockers and dry sump systems are restricted to cars which used them in period.

As I have pointed out on the other BT31 thread the car's engine capacity is still documented as the correct 2.5 litres and it is the responsibility of event organisers to sight the CoD to ensure that the car is correctly entered.

[Tim Murray]

I’ve merged the two BT31 threads to keep the discussion in one place and avoid the need for duplicate posting.

[bschenker]

What is that rod end and tube for that is tie wrapped to the brake line?

 

Beautiful set of photos!

It’s a steering damper rod, to fix on the bolt on the rack.

# 46 from SJ. Lambert in "Autosportman" there is an image.

Edited by bschenker, 15 December 2018 - 20:05.

[Catalina Park]

Thank you Beat, I can see how it attaches now.

[Allen Brown]

Re the BT31 ,the owner is now entering it at the capacity of 3.0 litre as per Eastern Creek meeting and the just ran Sandown meeting ,I can not understand how its not been looked at it even runs an engine box from a BT23E type model.

 

It must be running without an HTP.  The FIA would never have granted one for it to have a 3-litre engine, and I'm sure CAMS would not even have submitted the application.  

[ed holly]

For me this single seater was one of the stand-out cars at the meeting. 2.5 or 3 litre - this is Historic Racing not Gold Star or F1. I believe the owner enters it as a 3 litre in good faith and not trying to present it as a 2.5 for whatever reason the 2.5 is not presently installed. There should be a mechanism within the CAMS system to allow a car to be presented in the way this car has here - and maybe that was the case.

 

Goodness knows the M and O fields are skinny enough and I for one applaud the owner for bringing it along for the pure enjoyment of seeing such a wonderful car. Another stand-out car was the BT9 of Bruce Mansell's being driven by Brian Wilson. Absolutely gorgeous.

Edited by ed holly, 16 December 2018 - 21:43.

[rms]

For me this single seater was one of the stand-out cars at the meeting. 2.5 or 3 litre - this is Historic Racing not Gold Star or F1. I believe the owner enters it as a 3 litre in good faith and not trying to present it as a 2.5 for whatever reason the 2.5 is not presently installed. There should be a mechanism within the CAMS system to allow a car to be presented in the way this car has here - and maybe that was the case.

 

Goodness knows the M and O fields are skinny enough and I for one applaud the owner for bringing it along for the pure enjoyment of seeing such a wonderful car. Another stand-out car was the BT9 of Bruce Mansell's being driven by Brian Wilson. Absolutely gorgeous.

Ed,

This whole argument reminds me of a story I heard about Andre Rieu and his Orchestra. In his late 20's Andre was playing in an orchestra and was very unhappy, no one talked about the music, all the talk was for more money, less rehearsal and less travel.

He left and formed the Johann Strauss Orchestra, all they talked about was the music.

 

Ed, I am glad you like the music !

 

Erol

[Ray Bell]

As I understand it, in this regard Australian standards are higher...

 

But it looks like this is one case where the salient point is the same for both the CoD in Australia and the FIA HTP.

 

It's a sad state of affairs for this issue to cause people such angst, no doubt you are not alone in your feelings about it.

[2Bob]

I for one am quite happy to be able to put on a 'spirited demonstration' (as CAMS calls historic racing) with cars such as this.  The 2016 Phillip Island video here shows a lap or so where I followed the Brabham.  At the end (for anyone who doesn't get too bored) there is a brief shot of the rear of a fairly rare BRM which I had only seen previously at Warwick Farm in the 1960s!  All mixed in with Formula Juniors and Sports 2000s!

 

[ed holly]

Hi 2bob, I think that is Wayne Wilson's BT29 Brabham, not the 31 ...

[Lee Nicolle]

I for one am quite happy to be able to put on a 'spirited demonstration' (as CAMS calls historic racing) with cars such as this.  The 2016 Phillip Island video here shows a lap or so where I followed the Brabham.  At the end (for anyone who doesn't get too bored) there is a brief shot of the rear of a fairly rare BRM which I had only seen previously at Warwick Farm in the 1960s!  All mixed in with Formula Juniors and Sports 2000s!

 

You need another 100hp Bob, they run away on the fast bits.  Just cheat, like the subject of this thread,,, a 2 litre Corrolla 3K. Rest is good.

[2Bob]

Hi 2bob, I think that is Wayne Wilson's BT29 Brabham, not the 31 ...

 

 

You are right of course - now that I had another look at Natsoft.  Oh well similar colour maybe? 

 

 

Lee

 

"You need another 100hp Bob, they run away on the fast bits.  Just cheat, like the subject of this thread,,, a 2 litre Corrolla 3K. Rest is good."

 

Besides the bigger ones the damn 1100 Formula Juniors also run away on the straight bits .... and Wayne's Brabham is only 1600...  good fun whatever they are.

Edited by 2Bob, 18 December 2018 - 04:26.

[cooper997]

How Motoring News covered the Easter 69 Bathurst

 

 

 

Stephen

[MarkBisset]

 

The completed Brabham BT31 Repco on test at Goodwood in December 1968. Car then dismantled, shipped to Australia, and reassembled by Jack and Rodway Wolfe at RBE Maidstone before testing at Calder just prior to the ‘69 Sandown Tasman (Peter Strauss Collection)

 

 

https://primotipo.co...ham-bt31-repco/

Edited by MarkBisset, 04 April 2022 - 22:27.

[MarkBisset]

(Stephen Dalton Collection)

[MarkBisset]

 

Looks rather like an Ampol happy-snap. Sandown 1969 (Rod Eime Collection)

[Ray Bell]

But what does the 'FT' stand for?

 

Machining heads would not be unusual. From a simple planing because they've been warped to replacing a dropped valve seat or straightening a cam tunnel to making up a new head from a bare casting, they're the sort of things which happen.

[GazChed]

According to an article in the November 1969 issue of Motor Sport, the FT200 was designed for use with Formula Two cars and similarly powered sports cars and could be used on engines up to 2.5 litres.

[Doug Nye]

Not wishing to intrude upon this Australian thread but a REALLY important Brabham is about to come up for sale - Jack's original Formula 1 prototype BT3 in which he made his debut in a car bearing his own name in the 1962 German GP, in which he then scored his first World Championship points in a car bearing his own name in the 1962 US GP at Watkins Glen, and in which (the car by then in lightened, slightly modified - and re-liveried - form) he later scored his first Formula 1 victory in a car bearing his own name in the 1963 Solitude GP - followed by his second F1 win blah-blah-blah in that same year's Austrian GP at Zeltweg.  

 

That car has held a really special place in my heart since it was the first 'for real' F1 car which I ever had the chance to study at really close quarters - in the paddock at Brands Hatch. We later introduced it to the Donington Collection and off and on I rejoiced whenever I saw it while working there... A lovely, truly significant thing...and one of Jack's personal favourites.

 

DCN

 

Copyright GP Library photos show Jack testing his brand-new BT3 'F1-1-62' at Brands Hatch, July 1962...

 

 

...and on the way to his maiden Formula 1 win in a car bearing his own name, 1963 Solitude GP.

 

Edited by Doug Nye, 05 April 2022 - 17:22.

[Tom Glowacki]

But what does the 'FT' stand for?

 

Machining heads would not be unusual. From a simple planing because they've been warped to replacing a dropped valve seat or straightening a cam tunnel to making up a new head from a bare casting, they're the sort of things which happen.

 

Feeble Torque?

[Doug Nye]

A fine example of Mike Hewland logic - 'Formula Two'.

 

Like DG - 'Different Gearbox' - while Mike never disabused customer AAR of the idea that it must have been a tribute to 'Dan Gurney'.

 

Simple times...  

 

DCN

[Bikr7549]

And LG for large gearbox-nice logic for very nice equipment. I always liked the supposed connection to Dan for the DG.

[Ray Bell]

Getting back to the FT...

 

I was once told it stands for 'Effing Terrible'. Not so?

 

And did not the FG have a larger crownwheel and pinion driven by FT200 gears?

[cooper997]

Not wishing to intrude upon this Australian thread but a REALLY important Brabham is about to come up for sale - Jack's original Formula 1 prototype BT3 in which he made his debut in a car bearing his own name in the 1962 German GP, in which he then scored his first World Championship points in a car bearing his own name in the 1962 US GP at Watkins Glen, and in which (the car by then in lightened, slightly modified - and re-liveried - form) he later scored his first Formula 1 victory in a car bearing his own name in the 1963 Solitude GP - followed by his second F1 win blah-blah-blah in that same year's Austrian GP at Zeltweg.  

 

That car has held a really special place in my heart since it was the first 'for real' F1 car which I ever had the chance to study at really close quarters - in the paddock at Brands Hatch. We later introduced it to the Donington Collection and off and on I rejoiced whenever I saw it while working there... A lovely, truly significant thing...and one of Jack's personal favourites.

 

DCN

 

Copyright GP Library photos show Jack testing his brand-new BT3 'F1-1-62' at Brands Hatch, July 1962...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lovely stuff Doug. Good crowd for a test day.

 

July 28, 1962 for Brands test day, if I'm on the ball. The August 3 Autosport has BT3 on the cover (although that issue is a gap in my system).

 

 

Stephen

[Lee Nicolle]

Getting back to the FT...

 

I was once told it stands for 'Effing Terrible'. Not so?

 

And did not the FG have a larger crownwheel and pinion driven by FT200 gears?

My experience around these boxes are with 2 litre Sports Sedans in the 70s. Better than a VW type box but that was it.

DG300s came about A-Z versions and were decidedly fragile in 5000s let alone far heavier cars with 6 litre engines and closer to 600 ft lbs. The Monterosso Escort used to get quill shafts by the six pack!

The 4 speed model? 400 used in IMSA cars were a lot stronger

[BRG]

Copyright GP Library photos show Jack testing his brand-new BT3 'F1-1-62' at Brands Hatch, July 1962...

 

 

I realise it was a test day but even back in 1962, was it normal to have motorbikes parked on the side of the track?  Or was it an AA patrol waiting to rush to a member's assistance?

[Doug Nye]

The motor-cycle is actually parked in a confined little lay-by on the outside of the track just by the crest of Paddock Hill.  Jack and Ron happily ran their testing from that layby rather than from the pits.  When I began work at Brands in 1963 many teams and privateers also ran their cars on test from that lay-by - including Team Lotus.  Somewhere I have a (rare) contemporary photo of teenaged me as a bystander there, rubbernecking admiringly from a range of three yards or so as Jim Clark brought in his Lotus... For me such opportunity was heaven.  And curiously enough I think I do recall a St John's Ambulance Brigade medic who used to be on watch there during testing, with a motor-cycle just like that one.  Perhaps that's his rather than a police bike?

 

DCN

[Roger Clark]

THe caption to the Autosport photo of the BT31 (post #151) says that had had four-cam heads.  Was that ever the intention?

 

I'm always intrigued by the various exhaust systems on Repco V8 engines.  The 1966 systems look (to me) ungainly and drag producing.  The 1967 central exhaust must have warmed the fuel injectors somewhat. The system on this car looks so much better.  Obviously though, what works is right.

[Ray Bell]

That looks like an editorial blunder to me, Roger...

 

I wouldn't think the chassis tubes would never have allowed twin-cam heads and what is there is plainly a single-cam engine. The caption is describing what's in there.

[Doug Nye]

Meanwhile, back at the lay-by at the crest of Paddock Hill, Brands Hatch, July 1962...

 

DCN

 

Photo Copyright: The GP Library

 

[Ray Bell]

That really gives us a 'picture' of what was going on that day, Doug...

 

And other days. Possibly enabling testing of things others weren't supposed to see?

[Tim Murray]

Some posts have been removed and others edited as they no longer made sense. I know the provenance of this particular car causes controversy, but let’s try to keep the discussion friendly.