103 replies to this topic

[rallen]

I have never quite understood why some of the most highly regarded drivers of there age seem to have ended up in uncompetitive teams or almost allowed to slip down the grid until they retire, I am thinking specifically here of Chris Amon and Jacky Ickx. Now they were well before my time however I have read a lot about them and they are very very highly thought of on here when I read older threads. How did they not end up with better drives in the 70’s? was it just to do with the top drives were taken and it was nothing more than that or that the team bosses at the time didn’t think they had a certain something?

Ronnie Peterson is another name that springs to mind, regarded by many as the fastest driver why was he left to fade before rejoining Lotus for 78, I would have thought he would have been snapped up before then, did his reputation for not being very technical count against him?

At first I wondered if Amon and Ickx were not as well regarded at the time and they are now with hindsight but this was obviously not the case. Was it really just a case of being unlucky with timing and nothing more? Any other drivers you can’t quite understand how they didn’t get a better drive? It just seems wrong to me that Amon and Ickx ended up at Wolf and Ensign. Did it seem like that at the time?

[john winfield]

I have never quite understood why some of the most highly regarded drivers of there age seem to have ended up in uncompetitive teams or almost allowed to slip down the grid until they retire, I am thinking specifically here of Chris Amon and Jacky Ickx. Now they were well before my time however I have read a lot about them and they are very very highly thought of on here when I read older threads. How did they not end up with better drives in the 70’s? was it just to do with the top drives were taken and it was nothing more than that or that the team bosses at the time didn’t think they had a certain something?

Ronnie Peterson is another name that springs to mind, regarded by many as the fastest driver why was he left to fade before rejoining Lotus for 78, I would have thought he would have been snapped up before then, did his reputation for not being very technical count against him?

At first I wondered if Amon and Ickx were not as well regarded at the time and they are now with hindsight but this was obviously not the case. Was it really just a case of being unlucky with timing and nothing more? Any other drivers you can’t quite understand how they didn’t get a better drive? It just seems wrong to me that Amon and Ickx ended up at Wolf and Ensign. Did it seem like that at the time?

Rallen, I was a huge fan of Ickx during his time at Ferrari and now, older and wiser, I appreciate what a great all-round driver Jacky was. I think though that even he would admit to a tendency to lose motivation when a car was clearly not a winner. Some drivers would drive 100% all the time but Jacky wouldn't. The combination of his performances in the terrible 1973 Ferrari and the ailing Lotus 72 marked his card as far as top teams were concerned, hence the string of only minor teams that did offer him a berth later on. And from what I have read, Ligier weren't keen to have him in 1979; they were probably right as he never came to grips with the ground-effect machine.

[Doug Nye]

And from what I have read, Ligier weren't keen to have him in 1979; they were probably right as he never came to grips with the ground-effect machine.

Jacky seemed to do quite nicely thank you with Porsche's Group C ground-effect machines... Great drivers who failed to take the hint have quite commonly spent a twilight period in cannon fodder cars run by minor teams. Consider M. Schumacher right now.

DCN

[rallen]

Thanks Doug and John, really appreciate your responses.that's the thing if you wern't born at the time, you can read about their great exploits and amazing drives but you don't always get to know of there off days or day to day disillusionment that are just as important to the overall picture so you need to ask! that puts to bed my query on Ickx.

[alansart]

Great drivers who failed to take the hint have quite commonly spent a twilight period in cannon fodder cars run by minor teams.
DCN

Others set up there own teams. Chris Amon, Merzario, Fittipaldi (although in Emerson's case it led to his twilight period).

[Phil Rainford]

Just an aside with regards to Ickx; after his 3rd place in Germany in 1973 in the McLaren M23 ......... was there ever an opportunity for him to drive for them for the 74 season?


PAR

[Tim Murray]

According to this post in an earlier thread, posted by the man who runs Ickx's official website, the deal was done, until problems with sponsors arose:

For the 1974 season, Jacky Ickx had signed as top driver with McLaren-Marlboro and had the priority to choose his team mate. He pointed to Emerson Fittipaldi who was then engaged along with his sponsor Texaco who strangely refused Jacky Ickx. The deal with McLaren was broken and Jacky Ickx had no other choice than going for Lotus and the 72 was already 3 years old.

[Phil Rainford]

Thanks Tim....... as they say you learn something new everyday


PAR

[john winfield]

Jacky seemed to do quite nicely thank you with Porsche's Group C ground-effect machines... Great drivers who failed to take the hint have quite commonly spent a twilight period in cannon fodder cars run by minor teams. Consider M. Schumacher right now.

DCN

Fair enough, probably inaccurate on my part to make a sweeping comment re:ground effects. What I felt though was that here was Jacky in mid-1979, albeit now 34, with a chance in a reasonably competitive car following Patrick Depailler's accident. I know the Ligier wasn't the class of the field as it had been in the early races but, even so, seeing my old hero plod around and inherit sixth place at Silverstone was rather sad. I think Laffite out qualified Jacky fairly easily at every race that year.

I'd grown up with the tigerish Ickx, streaking away at the Brands GP in 1970, leading Pedro at the BOAC 1000, winning the in-house Ferrari battle at the 1972 BOAC 1000, leading half the GP that year etc. He was a real hero of mine but I can't recall many tigerish F1 performances after the 1974 Race of Champions and, for me, the nadir was at Zolder in 1976 when he failed even to qualify for his home race - when the times were announced the crowd went very quiet. Coincidentally, the next day Chris Amon drove a fantastic race in Mo Nunn's Ensign, a real tonic after several dismal years. Still, let's remember Chris and Jacky at their very best - I suppose we all get a bit long in the tooth some day!

[Dunc]

It's still happening today, look at Timo Glock. Sure, he's not the class of the field but he deserves better than Virgin.

[jimjimjeroo]

Alonso in this years Ferrari!

[Rob G]

Reigning World Champion Damon Hill in an Arrows deserves a mention here too.

[alansart]

Reigning World Champion Damon Hill in an Arrows deserves a mention here too.

....and he almost won a GP in it

[Amphicar]

Alan Jones in the Team Haas Lola THL1 is another example

Edited by Amphicar, 25 April 2011 - 17:51.

[alansart]

Alan Jones in the Team Haas Lola TH1 is another example

Didn't he drive an Arrows as well?

[Amphicar]

Didn't he drive an Arrows as well?

Yes but that was just a one-off drive - the Haas Lola was supposed to be a full-house comeback.

Edited by Amphicar, 25 April 2011 - 17:53.

[Phil Rainford]

Coincidentally, the next day Chris Amon drove a fantastic race in Mo Nunn's Ensign, a real tonic after several dismal years. Still, let's remember Chris and Jacky at their very best - I suppose we all get a bit long in the tooth some day!

To be fair to Chris Amon is was extremely competitive during 1976 in the Ensign.........however a number of high speed mechanical failures and the Lauda crash at the Ring was enough to convince him there was more to life than just motor racing


PAR

Edited by Phil Rainford, 25 April 2011 - 18:27.

[rallen]

To be fair to Chris Amon is was extremely competitive during 1976 in the Ensign.........however a number of high speed mechanical failures and the Lauda crash at the Ring was enough to convince him there were more to life than just motor racing


PAR

Yes I have read that he put in amazing performances in 1976 which made me think what he would have done in the McLaren, why did they not snap him up I believe Hunt was a very last minute signing after Emmo left? you would have thought they would have considered Amon with his reputation - one of the reasons that made me think of this thread, still not sure why Tyrrell didn't keep him on after the sad demise of Cevert. Was Depailler considered a better driver at that point?

[RStock]

This brings to mind something I have always heard about racing. There are more good drivers than there are good cars. That's the simplist answer, I believe.

[R.W. Mackenzie]

I love Mario Andretti's quote about Chris Amon's bad luck. It was something to the effect that if Chris became an undertaker people would stop dying.

In regards to the topic here that mostly applies to his two semi-competitive and one non-competitive seasons at Ferrari (1967 and 1968 and 1969 respectively) after which he moved over to March in their first year in 1970 during which Ferrari became fully competitive and race-winning with the new 312B.

I would also like to propose Jochen Rindt in his three disappointing years with Cooper (9165 to 1967) followed by a frustrating year with Brabham (1968).

Bob Mackenzie

[Glengavel]

Fittipaldi/Copersucar, does that count? Although it was a deliberate move rather than forced of circumstances.

[ryan86]

I think quite a few of the examples given such as Fittipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve, Hill, Irvine and possibly Jones at Lola, is drivers being lured by being there at the start of project and trying to build something great and it not going to plan. If you look back I'm sure a lot of these teams were new or new investors, with those dreaded 3-year plans that rarely work.

[E1pix]

I think quite a few of the examples given such as Fittipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve, Hill, Irvine and possibly Jones at Lola, is drivers being lured by being there at the start of project and trying to build something great and it not going to plan. If you look back I'm sure a lot of these teams were new or new investors, with those dreaded 3-year plans that rarely work.

Hear, Here! I totally agree with this, especially in terms of Emmo and Jacques.

In JV's case, though, I always suspected that he took the BAR ride for sheer money.... speculation, of course! It appeared that after winning the WC so soon, in Y2, the desire was belittled and replaced by making dough during these oh-so-short career opportunities. I understand it, but wish he'd stayed competitive for longer elsewhere.

[Option1]

I always thought that Jacques' move was as much due to the almost-svengali influence of his manager, Craig Pollock, who set up BAR and took Jacques with him to ensure attracting investor money. Either way, it was a rather silly move for Jacques to make, so I thought at the time, and still do.

Neil

[Bauble]

My recollection of both Amon and Ickx does not put them into the top echelon of Formula 1 drivers, Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time, he was a noted wet weather driver though.

What I remember most about Amon was comments made by the team manager at Ferrari to the effect that he always brought the car back in good order. This indicated that he never drove to the limit of the car ie the brakes still had plenty left at the end of a race, rev counter on the approved limit etc. etc..

This contrast's with Jenks description of Fangio's 250F when he set fastest lap in practice at Spa; dripping oil, brakes smoking, steam rising from the bonnet, every indication that Juan had used everything the car had over one lap. Thaat was why Fangio was a five times World Champion, he made the most of whatever he had.

Hope this does not upset any Amon/ Ickx fans.

[john winfield]

My recollection of both Amon and Ickx does not put them into the top echelon of Formula 1 drivers, Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time, he was a noted wet weather driver though.

What I remember most about Amon was comments made by the team manager at Ferrari to the effect that he always brought the car back in good order. This indicated that he never drove to the limit of the car ie the brakes still had plenty left at the end of a race, rev counter on the approved limit etc. etc..

This contrast's with Jenks description of Fangio's 250F when he set fastest lap in practice at Spa; dripping oil, brakes smoking, steam rising from the bonnet, every indication that Juan had used everything the car had over one lap. Thaat was why Fangio was a five times World Champion, he made the most of whatever he had.

Hope this does not upset any Amon/ Ickx fans.

Bauble. You upset anybody? Heaven forbid.
"..Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time.." From 1968 to 1972 I would think Ickx was arguably never out of the top six and, at his peak, in the top two or three.
Bauble, this is only my opinion of course and, although entirely at odds with your own view, I do hope you aren't too upset.
Yours, Whippersnapper Winfield

PS Keir, where are you when we need you?

Edited by john winfield, 26 April 2011 - 18:21.

[Phil Rainford]

Bauble. You upset anybody? Heaven forbid.
"..Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time.." From 1968 to 1972 I would think Ickx was arguably never out of the top six and, at his peak, in the top two or three.

Have to agree.........however his performance levels fell away rapidly after 1972 in F1.


PAR

[RStock]

My recollection of both Amon and Ickx does not put them into the top echelon of Formula 1 drivers, Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time, he was a noted wet weather driver though.

Not even when he almost won the championship? He was a rather hot commodity for awhile, so the teams must have rated him rather highly.

What I remember most about Amon was comments made by the team manager at Ferrari to the effect that he always brought the car back in good order. This indicated that he never drove to the limit of the car ie the brakes still had plenty left at the end of a race, rev counter on the approved limit etc. etc..

Forghieri once made a comment that Chris did not have enough faith in his own ability, or words to that effect.

[sbrinley]

My recollection of both Amon and Ickx does not put them into the top echelon of Formula 1 drivers, Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time, he was a noted wet weather driver though.

What I remember most about Amon was comments made by the team manager at Ferrari to the effect that he always brought the car back in good order. This indicated that he never drove to the limit of the car ie the brakes still had plenty left at the end of a race, rev counter on the approved limit etc. etc..

This contrast's with Jenks description of Fangio's 250F when he set fastest lap in practice at Spa; dripping oil, brakes smoking, steam rising from the bonnet, every indication that Juan had used everything the car had over one lap. Thaat was why Fangio was a five times World Champion, he made the most of whatever he had.

Hope this does not upset any Amon/ Ickx fans.

Bauble:
You are so right about Fangio. I remember our crew chief on Team Roosevelt telling me the John Fitch Theory of Racing: the driver should use up everything to win--the car should collapse crossing the finish line in first. A bit of hyperbole; but the right idea

[David McKinney]

My recollection of both Amon and Ickx does not put them into the top echelon of Formula 1 drivers.

What I remember most about Amon was comments made by the team manager at Ferrari to the effect that he always brought the car back in good order. This indicated that he never drove to the limit of the car ie the brakes still had plenty left at the end of a race, rev counter on the approved limit etc. etc..

I smell deliberate provocation...

So all those times Amon led GPs in a Ferrari, only for it to break down, were because he wasn't driving the car to its limit?

The 1970 International Trophy doesn't put him in the top echelon? (But you presumably include the bloke he beat, in equal cars?)

His series-long battle with one J Clark in the 1968 Tasman Series?

Clermont-Ferrand 1972?

I'll stop now before I have to have myself committed to the Blood Pressure thread...

[scheivlak]

Bauble. You upset anybody? Heaven forbid.
"..Jacky was a demon in sports cars, but while competetive in a Grand Prix car was never in the top ten in his time.." From 1968 to 1972 I would think Ickx was arguably never out of the top six and, at his peak, in the top two or three.

You only have to look at his performances at the 'Ring to acknowledge that he was among the best of the best.

[David Manton]

I smell deliberate provocation...

So all those times Amon led GPs in a Ferrari, only for it to break down, were because he wasn't driving the car to its limit?

The 1970 International Trophy doesn't put him in the top echelon? (But you presumably include the bloke he beat, in equal cars?)

His series-long battle with one J Clark in the 1968 Tasman Series?

Clermont-Ferrand 1972?

I'll stop now before I have to have myself committed to the Blood Pressure thread...

Bravo David.

Has Bauble ever read what Enzo Ferrari thought of the 1968 Tasman series battle between Chris Amon and Jim Clark? He used the words " a fight between two giants". And also that "Clark was cold, bold and as fast as ever but he was able to prevail only after seven races on the fast track of Sandown Park where 330bhp of Clark's Cosworth-Ford engined Lotus made the difference compared to the 285bhp Ferrari."

In those 1968 races, Ferrari said, Amon demonstrated strength and fought Jim Clark as an absolute equal.

Mr Bauble?

[rallen]

Has Bauble ever read what Enzo Ferrari thought of the 1968 Tasman series battle between Chris Amon and Jim Clark? He used the words " a fight between two giants". And also that "Clark was cold, bold and as fast as ever but he was able to prevail only after seven races on the fast track of Sandown Park where 330bhp of Clark's Cosworth-Ford engined Lotus made the difference compared to the 285bhp Ferrari."

Did Ferrari ever try to lure Amon back after he left? I believe Enzo was still in touch with him afterwards. Again if those were the views of Ferrari it just seems strange how in the F1 community no one gave Amon the drive he deserved.

[Tim Murray]

According to Nigel Roebuck's profile of Amon in Grand Prix Greats, in the autumn of 1973 Chris had a firm offer to go back to Ferrari. Teddy Mayer offered him the Yardley McLaren for 1974, and Bernie offered him the Brabham seat vacated by Rikki von Opel. Chris turmed them all down because of his commitment to the Amon project and loyalty to the other team members.

[Bauble]

Lawd a' mercy! I've done it again; when will I ever learn?

I must admit that most of my judgements are subjective, I do not tend to look back at statistics to back up my views, so when these two 'giants' are mentioned I do not instantly think; wow! They were great.

Many a pundit will give his 'All Time Top Ten' and we will scream ....what an idiot fancy not putting Mantovani in the list! What about Perez Sala? Why is Coulthard not in there? Etc., etc..

I know full well that some expert will now correct me, but I have never seen any such list that included either of these guys, they were both very competent Grand Prix drivers, but history does not record them any measure of GREATNESS. Sorry if this gives a rise in BP (David) but quoting particular drives does not cut it for me.


There again I don't rate Jim Clark all that highly either!

[scheivlak]

Lawd a' mercy! I've done it again; when will I ever learn?

I must admit that most of my judgements are subjective, I do not tend to look back at statistics to back up my views, so when these two 'giants' are mentioned I do not instantly think; wow! They were great.

Many a pundit will give his 'All Time Top Ten' and we will scream ....what an idiot fancy not putting Mantovani in the list! What about Perez Sala? Why is Coulthard not in there? Etc., etc..

I know full well that some expert will now correct me, but I have never seen any such list that included either of these guys, they were both very competent Grand Prix drivers, but history does not record them any measure of GREATNESS. Sorry if this gives a rise in BP (David) but quoting particular drives does not cut it for me.


There again I don't rate Jim Clark all that highly either!

Well, the last remark shows how serious we should take your opinion.

Apart from that, your post is a rather blatant effort to move the goalposts.
In your earlier post you stated that Ickx and Amon were not in the top ten in their time .
Now you yell that they were not in the "any such lists" like All time Top Ten lists -which is something else than the opinion with which you started the discussion.

Apart from that, Ickx and Amon feature quite often in those lists - not in the top ten of all time but not too far behind which means in fact that experts -whatever you may think of their opinion- usually think that they are top ten drivers in the late 60s/early 70s.

[Bauble]

In your earlier post you stated that Ickx and Amon were not in the top ten in their time .

Yes,I must agree, that did not quite come across as I intended, both would have been very much in the top ten in their day, I was not attempting to belittle either driver, just that personally I do not see them standing out from a slew of good drivers over a longer period of time. Apart from certain drivers that most people would agree (silly thing to say really) ;ie Fangio, Moss, Senna, Schumacher etc. there are any number of people who have achieved a level of sucess, but history does not remember them in the same way.

Today's 'top ten' for instance will probably include, Button, Hamilton, Vettel, Webber, Alonso, Massa even Kubica possibly, but what about in ten or twenty years time? It is highly unlikely that more than one of them would be in an 'all time top 10' list in 2031.

I was always a bit of a fan of Ickx, so I would not put him down, but I do try and keep a sense of perspective. While my personal hero was Mike Hawthorn I do not believe that he has the record to make the 10.

Seriously I do not rate Jimmy amongst my own top 10, but I know that is heresy on this site.

Yours in sport,

bauble

[scheivlak]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[ray b]

feel heel in a ATS anyone ??

[rallen]

Seriously I do not rate Jimmy amongst my own top 10, but I know that is heresy on this site.

Yours in sport,

bauble

Bauble, I am interested now, would you mind saying your own top 10?

[Bauble]

Bauble, I am interested now, would you mind saying your own top 10?

Now there is a question! When it comes to an 'all time top 10' I take the view, expressed elsewhere on the forum I believe, that you take Nuvolari, Fangio and Moss and put them on pedestals, and then list your top 10.

I do not judge drivers on their record of Championships or race wins, but on an entirely subjective and emotional level - my 'gut feeling'.

The driver who best represents what I admire in a driver is Gilles Villenueve. Here was a man who I felt saw 'racing' as the prime object - pass the guy in front and keep the guy behind - behind! And if that meant you won the motor race that was a bonus.

So in no particular order let me list ten drivers I have followed and supported;

Mike Hawthorn.
Jean Behra.
Gilles Villenueve.
Pedro Rodriguez.
Rene Arnoux.
Michael Schumacher.
Graham Hill.
Masten Gregory.
Willy Mairesse.
Peter Collins.

Of today's crop I have a real liking for Felipe Massa.

Another way to rank drivers is as follows;

Schumacher 7 Championships.
Fangio. 5 "
Prost. 4 "
Stewart 3 + 2nd's. 1 3rd.
Senna 3 + 2
Piquet 3 + 1 +1
Brabham 3 +1
Lauda ".

It all depends on what yardstick you use to rank drivers.

When ranking on results you need to factor in the car, the opposition and the number of races available.

In the case of Jimmy Clark I feel that he had the car, most of the time, and relatively weak opposition. (I know this will cause a storm of abuse, but I hold it to be self evident).

Some drivers are blinding fast, Ascari, Clark as prime examples while some are 'racers' of the knock 'em down and drag 'em out variety.

I do not underestimate Clark's ability or his record, but on the Baubleometer, he does not figure particularly well.

I hope that this will prove stimulating, and generate reasoned argument, not common abuse. David, Giraffe, Kayemond etc......

Note: While not in my list I can well imagine that many people will include Rindt, Peterson, Mansell on their own.

Thank you rallen for inviting me to share my thoughts on your thread, I hope you find them of interest.

Cheers,

bauble.

Edited by Bauble, 28 April 2011 - 08:55.

[rallen]

Hi Bauble

thanks for reply I appreciate that - I was worried you would think I was setting you up for a trap or to cause a fracas and not reply.

Interesting reading, I know a lot of members here loath top ten lists and the like but I think they are important talking points that often flush out additional information and can change a few viewpoints or perspectives. It is also handy if your not familier with some names as much so you get to see them in an overall perspective.

I fear if I would get roundly mocked if I attempted to list mine as I wasn't around to see them first hand so I know I would be dismissed as an uneducated whippersnapper, but what do you do if the drivers and the era you are interested in is before your time? I loath modern day F1.

Anyone else please feel free to chip in with your thoughts or views - doesnt have to be a top ten and I don't mind if the thread goes off topic.

As for the original posting, I know Moss chose his heart over his head with some of his drives but was the machinery he had good enough in his f1 career, likewise with Tony Brooks - could they have done better at different teams or would they likely to have had the same success rates? Sorry although I have a better understanding of the standard of teams in the 60's and 70's I am more vauge on the teams of the 50's.

[David McKinney]

As Bauble says, such lists are either ranked statistically or entirely subjectively. The first are difficult to argue against, the second impossible to argue against, because by definition they are one man's view, and don't have to be justified

"Top tens" and "Top 100s" have been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere, and I tend not to contribute because you're never going to change anyone's personal views (see Amon, above )

But freed from any need to justify my choices, my list of favourites - who tended to be those I considered the best (which does not mean the most successful) of their period - might be

Nuvolari
Fangio
Moss
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Villenueve Sr
Prost
Senna
Schumacher

[kayemod]

Nuvolari
Fangio
Moss
Clark
Stewart
Lauda
Villenueve Sr
Prost
Senna
Schumacher

No great disagreement with that, but what's your starting date ? Given that you've included Tazio, I'd have added Bernd Rosemeyer and deleted Villeneuve, also I think Ascari far outranks Niki Lauda. I know it's an unpopular view hereabouts, but although undeniably exciting to watch, I've always consudered Gilles V to be somewhat overrated, not one of the greats in my opinion, and yes, I did see him drive.

[David McKinney]

Rosemeyer and Ascari were both knocked out in my whittling down to ten

And re-read my introductory remarks

[Eric Dunsdon]

My top tens. The first from the head, the second, from the heart.

Nuvolari
Fangio
Moss
Caracciola
Varzi
Rosemeyer
Ascari (Alberto)
Clark
Senna
Schumacher (M).



Moss (HWM and Maserati days)
Behra
Castellotti
Musso
Marimon
Villeneuve (G)
Arnoux
Schumacher (M)
Gregory
Collins.

The second list was the more difficult!. Lance Macklin, Cesare Perdisa, Willy Mairess and Roy Salvadori were among the many who for a variety of reasons, have a place in my heart.

[rallen]

Gentlemen, where would Rudolf Caracciola stand? as your knowledge is vastly suprior to mine - until signing up to this site I had never heard of him, though I had heard of Nuvolari, yet not Rudolf though his career seems pretty impressive.

[David McKinney]

Gentlemen, where would Rudolf Caracciola stand? as your knowledge is vastly suprior to mine - until signing up to this site I had never heard of him, though I had heard of Nuvolari, yet not Rudolf though his career seems pretty impressive.

OK - one man's ranking of '30s drivers:
Nuvolari
Rosemeyer
Caracciola
Varzi
Lang
Chiron
Fagioli
Stuck
Müller
Moll
Bearing in mind that some were at/near the top for only one or two seasons

[rallen]

Interesting thanks, been curious about that so its good to see that era in context though I recogise it is subjective!

Anyway don't want to frustrate everyone by highjacking my own thread so to go back to the original topic...

Would you have Derek Warwick in the list of highly regarded drivers without the car for his talent? There is the famous soundbite that he was more talented than Mansell.... always found that an interesting statement, is that the view of TNFers as well?

How about Brundle after his 1984 and also 1992 season where he did well against a young Michael Schummacher - Flavio said to him recently 'I should never have let you go, we didn't realise how good you were!' not that I would believe anything Flav said btw!

[Bauble]

Now this is developing nicely as we accept personal opinions without having to defend ourselves, from the Wolf Pack (they know who they are).

I see no reason why one should not include drivers from any era in a list; after all 1950 was merely the start of a points table, not the birth of the sport. Including only those who raced in Grand Prixs since then is just a way to limit the choice, and make it easier for journo's.

Since we are no longer trying to sort out the 'best ever' let me list ten DRIVERS I have always liked and whose career's I followed avidly; (not in any particular order)

Mike Hawthorn
Brian Shawe-Taylor
Graham Whitehead
Mike Keen
Jean Behra
Jim Russell
Ian Raby
Pedro Rodriguez
Rene Arnoux
Don Beauman.


OK So many will be saying "Never heard of them", which is alright because it should not only be the big names who attract out attention.

Go on give it a try.


Nobody has mentiond Peterson as yet, that does suprise me.