59 replies to this topic

[Herr Wankel]

Hi Chaps (and chapess's)

In the winter of 1968/69 Santiago Herrero came to the Island to learn the course.He rode an early 4 speed drum braked Triumph Trident.Does anyone know who supplied the bike.Was it a travelling marshalls machine ? The registration number was WNX 195H



Photo courtesy of Davide Malavesi

Thanks

HW

Edited by Herr Wankel, 26 April 2011 - 09:30.

[Rennmax]

Andy, I think he came a year later to the Island, in the first week of January in '70. According to the Seeley book, he borrowed the bike directly from the factory

[Herr Wankel]

Thnks Renn.I'll let our little (9,000 + ) FB group know.Any more contributions about Santi,very welcome.

HW

[Rennmax]

Thnks Renn.I'll let our little (9,000 + ) FB group know.Any more contributions about Santi,very welcome.

HW

Is there a good Herrero biography available or are you on the verge of writing one ? I'll order one, well the English or German version

Edited by Rennmax, 26 April 2011 - 10:17.

[Herr Wankel]

Is there a good Herrero biography available or are you on the verge of writing one ? I'll order one, well the English or German version

Sadly nothing Renn,only newspaper and magazine articles.We have a big meeting at Jarama this weekend in conjunction with a petition to have a street named after him in Madrid.It is certainly a point I will raise.One of the guys has so much memorabilia,old personal effects,race licences etc.We will also be meeting with Estaban Oliveras,the OSSA mechanic,who was like a dad to Santi,Edouardo Giro and Santi's brother Arturo.I think this needs to be done,before these people are lost to us.

Atb HW

[Rennmax]

Didn't Santi run a garage as well as a pub in Bilbao and competed in rallyes in the wintertime in a Fiat Abarth ? That's all I have ever heard from his non bike related career...


Edit: That's reportedly Santi in a Lotus Elan

Edited by Rennmax, 26 April 2011 - 12:21.

[Herr Wankel]

Yes Renn,correct about the rallying.Didn't know about the pub though.Will ask Bozzo,his #1 fan this weekend.I saw that same Elan in Denia (Alicante) a couple of years ago.

Atb HW

[Herr Wankel]

Yes Renn,correct about the rallying.Didn't know about the pub though.Will ask Bozzo,his #1 fan this weekend.I saw that same Elan in Denia (Alicante) a couple of years ago.

Atb HW

Hi Renn and everyone,
Spent a fantastic weekend,last weekend at Jarama,and after that at the new OSSA factory,where a small(ish) group of us had a tour.The visit was to honour Santi's friend,mechanic,and father figure Esteban Oliveras.A wonderful time was had,and incuded some 'old boys' from Spanish racing. Carlos Giro,Luis Yglesias,Salvador Canellas,Eduardo Giro,and many others were present.It was quite an emotional event. Esteban is now 80 and as 'sharp as a dart'. Its true old racers never grow up.They were all larking about as if the clock had never advanced 40 plus years. We are (a group of friends) trying to piece together as much of Santiago's life as we can.Asking the family would be a start,but they are a very private and close knit bunch.Having said that,I met Arturo,Santi's brother,a lovely bloke,but very reserved.
Can I ask if anyone has any stories,anecdotes etc,lets hear 'em,because little enough is known of this brilliant,tenacious rider.the point being,none of us are getting any younger,and the knowledge could well be lost.Thanks in anticipation.
By the way Renn,you were right.As well as his garage,he ran a bar with brother Arturo,in Bilbao,his adopted home.
41 years at this years TT since he was lost

ATB HW

[fastfitter]

According to the Seeley book, he borrowed the bike directly from the factory

That's a Dudley registration if that helps.

[Herr Wankel]

That's a Dudley registration if that helps.

Probably means its a factory bike then FF (Brum).Where was Copes shop ? Dudley rings a bell !

Atb HW

[Rennmax]

........ By the way Renn,you were right.As well as his garage,he ran a bar with brother Arturo,in Bilbao,his adopted home.
41 years at this years TT since he was lost

ATB HW

Thanks for confirmation Andy. So who's gonna write the biography as long as eye witnesses are still there....

[Rennmax]

Hi Andy and fellows,

I think these Lubes of the early sixties were Herman Meier inspired, didn't Mike O' Rourke, probably through his Ariel Arrow/Herman Meier connection, give them a try ?

Edited by Rennmax, 13 May 2011 - 09:44.

[Herr Wankel]

Hi Andy and fellows,

I think these Lubes of the early sixties were Herman Meier inspired, didn't Mike O' Rourke, probably through his Ariel Arrow/Herman Meier connection, give them a try ?

Yes Herman did work for them before leaving for Ariel (the engine layout bearing a strong resemblance to Adler !) Don't know if Mike tried them,but they would have been past their best by then IMHO.The MV's (mentioned in the PM) would almost certainly be the smaller ones.Can't see MV loaning out the big multis.

For anyone interested in 60s Spanish stuff,take a butchers at this link

www.lamaneta.com/motoguapa/

HW

[Herr Wankel]

With reference to the young lady with Santi,on the Continental Circus film.They were to be married in september of 1970

HW

[Herr Wankel]

If anyone is interested,the Albacete circuit near(ish) to Valencia,is naming a corner on the circuit in honour of Santiago Herrero.A monument/statue is also being constructed.The ceremony will be on the weekend of October 8/9,together with the 'Santiago Herrero Trophy Race'. Long overdue I think.

HW

[Russell Burrows]

Was this one post Herrero, Herr?

[Herr Wankel]

Was this one post Herrero, Herr?

No Russell.It was being developed alongside the air-cooled one,but despite putting out close to (a claimed) 50BHP,Herrero prefered the air version.Possibly better the devil you know.Carlos Giro,his sometimes team-mate and cousin of the bikes designer gave it a few outings,but seldom if ever beat Santi.This bike is (was) in the Basella museum in Aragon.Biggest advantage with this one is a bigger fuel capacity than the 'air'.Herrero often had to pit to take on fuel in the longer races.

HW

Edited by Herr Wankel, 13 September 2011 - 20:29.

[fastfitter]

If anyone is interested,the Albacete circuit near(ish) to Valencia,is naming a corner on the circuit in honour of Santiago Herrero.A monument/statue is also being constructed.The ceremony will be on the weekend of October 8/9,together with the 'Santiago Herrero Trophy Race'. Long overdue I think.

HW

Here Here

[Herr Wankel]

Here Here

I will found very close to the bar in the Hotel Castilla except when the racing is on

HW

[Herr Wankel]

Was this one post Herrero, Herr?

According to the human encyclopaedia of OSSA (Bozzo of Girona) this photo was taken at Assen in 1969,fuel tank of 23 litres,rider Carlos Giro,very many problems with the bike that weekend.'Charlie' Giro will be at Albacete next month,as will be Esteban Oliveras,Herrero's faithful mechanic

HW

[Herr Wankel]

According to the human encyclopaedia of OSSA (Bozzo of Girona) this photo was taken at Assen in 1969,fuel tank of 23 litres,rider Carlos Giro,very many problems with the bike that weekend.'Charlie' Giro will be at Albacete next month,as will be Esteban Oliveras,Herrero's faithful mechanic

HW

Just a quick update on the forthcoming Albacete meeting (october 8/9).
Eduardo Giro,designer of Santi's bike,Carlos Giro,OSSA factory rider,Luis Iglesias,OSSA factory rider,Esteban Oliveras,Santi's mechanic,all confirmed as appearing.Also Santi's factory Lube 125 race bike will be there,and hopefully Alguasuari will let the factory OSSA out of his office for the weekend.The Herrero Trophy race WILL be an annual event.
The circuit management (Andres Sanchez) has coughed up for 1000 commemorative T shirts for the 1st punters through the turnstiles.Also the 1st 2 rows of the grandstand on Herrero's corner reserved for the members of the Herrero facebook group.Unveiling of a statue in his honour by the mayor of Albacete,and all filmed by spanish TV.Should be a good do !!

HW

Edited by Herr Wankel, 22 September 2011 - 11:39.

[Herr Wankel]

Big Steve (Esteban Grande) with one of the finest 250s ever made,at Albacete last weekend

HW

[Herr Wankel]

[quote name='Herr Wankel' date='Oct 12 2011, 15:58' post='5335499']


Big Steve (Esteban Grande) with one of the finest 250s ever made,at Albacete last weekend

HW


They call it progress; The race winning Paton 500 at the Manx this year clocked 143mph.Santi clocked 137mph in 1970 on a 250,but of course he was cheating because it was a 2 stroke

HW

[fil2.8]

They call it progress; The race winning Paton 500 at the Manx this year clocked 143mph.Santi clocked 137mph in 1970 on a 250,but of course he was cheating because it was a 2 stroke

HW
[/quote]


Again , my friend , very well said

[Rennmax]

The Paton is basically as old as the Ossa

Edited by Rennmax, 18 October 2011 - 16:03.

[Paul Collins]

But given that the Ossa is a single of half its capacity thats some speed!! I know the boffins reckon its about a 2:1 ratio for performance per cc between 2 & 4 strokes of a similar era but thats still a damn good turn of speed for an air cooled single.

Mind you, I suppose on a power to weight basis the Ossa is going to be a lot lighter.

[Herr Wankel]

The Paton is basically as old as the Ossa

Now,now Renn,you naughty boy.You know that the 'new' Paton is a far better and more reliable tool than the originals.I heard an old wives tale that it is half a GSXR1000 inside.Surely not,just as all the Manx's racing are exactly as Bracebridge Street would have made 'em.

HW

[Rennmax]

Now,now Renn,you naughty boy.You know that the 'new' Paton is a far better and more reliable tool than the originals.I heard an old wives tale that it is half a GSXR1000 inside.Surely not,just as all the Manx's racing are exactly as Bracebridge Street would have made 'em.

HW

Agreed HW, I'm just in the mood for playing the devil's advocate

Edited by Rennmax, 18 October 2011 - 17:04.

[Herr Wankel]

Agreed HW, I'm just in the mood for playing the devil's advocate

Well played Sir !

HW

[Russell Burrows]

If, back in the day all strokers were quicker than everything else, how come MV, Honda, Bennelli, et al won the occasional race?

[Russell Burrows]

I know the boffins reckon its about a 2:1 ratio for performance per cc between 2 & 4 strokes of a similar era.

Aye?

[Rennmax]

Aye?

Since a 2 stroke has twice as much ignitions at a given rpm, 250 cc 2 strokes should compete with 500 cc 4 strokes....

[Russell Burrows]

Since a 2 stroke has twice as much ignitions at a given rpm, 250 cc 2 strokes should compete with 500 cc 4 strokes....

Or, a stroker is twice as fast as a fourstroke of the same capacity. I detect a flaw.

[Herr Wankel]

Or, a stroker is twice as fast as a fourstroke of the same capacity. I detect a flaw.

So do I Russell,so do I

HW

[Paul Collins]

If, back in the day all strokers were quicker than everything else, how come MV, Honda, Bennelli, et al won the occasional race?

Generally once 2 stroke development had taken off (expansion chmbers/disc/reed valves etc) only against 2 strokes of roughly half the size give or take 100cc, apart from of course, exotica such as the 250 Honda 6.

Honda tried really hard with the NR500, but eventually I believe, had to take it to something like 680cc to compete with a privateer RG500.

[Herr Wankel]

Now then ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls (as Fred Clarke might say) Identity parade time. This photo was taken at the TT in 1970.Sr Giro tells me that a young lad was always around the team as general gopher and guide.I reckon he must have been Manx as english kids would have been at school at TT time.I think he is the one on the far left in the pic. Is this boy YOU sir,or do you know him ? Yep I know its a long shot !!!


HW

[Paul Collins]

Assuming he's still around i'd guess he'll be mid 50's by now, I know a few knowledgable locals of his age group so i'll point them to the site.

One particular mate i'm seeing tomorrow night is a bit of a TT historian and also Manx born and bred and about the same age so i'll get him to check it out, he could well remember him from school!!

[Russell Burrows]

Generally once 2 stroke development had taken off (expansion chmbers/disc/reed valves etc) only against 2 strokes of roughly half the size give or take 100cc, apart from of course, exotica such as the 250 Honda 6.

Honda tried really hard with the NR500, but eventually I believe, had to take it to something like 680cc to compete with a privateer RG500.

Paul, I seem to recall the disc valve strokers of MZ, Suzuki, Yamaha and Jawa being routinely wallpoed by Honda and MV with bikes of the same size? This occurred throughout the sixties, long after the arrival of expansion chambers and disc valves. I'm prepared to accept that there's a theoretical basis for the power superiority of strokers, but historically this has never translated into the huge advantage you claim.

Come to think of it, Morini's lovely 250 single sometimes duffed the lot of 'em up, strokers and multi cylindered four strokes alike.

[Paul Collins]

The sixties are before my era really, I was born in 1960 and only got to see my first race meeting in 1971, so I bow to your knowledge from that era regarding the MZ's and early Yams, from what i've read and heard the general opinion was that early 2 strokes were fast and fragile, which was probably true up to the early 70's

I dont think the 'twice the power so twice as fast' theory quite adds up, due to wind resistance giving a deminishing return, as speed increases, a disproportionate amount of extra power will be required to continue getting faster, but an engine with every downward stroke being a power stroke rather than every second downward stroke should produce more power at a similar given capacity.

Come on Terryshep give us your wisdom here, you tuned 2 strokes for years and rode some rapid four strokes too.

Edited to add, and of course there is also that unmeasurable factor............the bravery and skill of bloke with the throttle in his hand

Edited by Paul Collins, 18 October 2011 - 20:52.

[Herr Wankel]

Assuming he's still around i'd guess he'll be mid 50's by now, I know a few knowledgable locals of his age group so i'll point them to the site.

One particular mate i'm seeing tomorrow night is a bit of a TT historian and also Manx born and bred and about the same age so i'll get him to check it out, he could well remember him from school!!

Thanks Paul,much appreciated.Incidentally the OSSA was 3 mph down on the works MZ in '71 at 137mph.Makes you wonder what we were doing buggering about with Greeves and Starmaker single cylinder 2 strokes !

HW

[Paul Collins]

No problem Herr, i've emailed the link to my mate, you never know, everyone knows everyone over here!!

Makes you wonder what an NSR/YZR500 modern derivative would be putting out, if development had continued instead of stopping 11 years ago doesnt it!! i'm gussing 240+bhp??!!

[Russell Burrows]

I dont think the 'twice the power so twice as fast' theory quite adds up, due to wind resistance giving a deminishing return, as speed increases, a disproportionate amount of extra power will be required to continue getting faster, but an engine with every downward stroke being a power stroke rather than every second downward stroke should produce more power at a similar given capacity.

I'm certain it doesn't add up. I don't have any figures to hand on the relative bhp poked out by say the RG Suzuki and the MV of four of '75, but if the stroker was producing anything like twice the power of the Italian bike, Phil Read should have been knighted ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 18 October 2011 - 21:49.

[philippe7]

Since a 2 stroke has twice as much ignitions at a given rpm, 250 cc 2 strokes should compete with 500 cc 4 strokes....

"at a given rpm" , this is the key........and since 4-strokes usually rev much higher, that's how the Honda 6 could keep with the MZ and Yam's

( of course, this is deliberately oversimplifying the maths, but you get the idea ... )

[Paul Collins]

I think the works XR14 RG500 was putting out around 105bhp in 75, I guess Ago's Yam which won that year would have been around the same.

I cant lay my hands on any 1975 MV figures but I think Read had about 90bhp possibly a couple more, as said above its the revs which also need to be taken into account

[Herr Wankel]

No problem Herr, i've emailed the link to my mate, you never know, everyone knows everyone over here!!

Makes you wonder what an NSR/YZR500 modern derivative would be putting out, if development had continued instead of stopping 11 years ago doesnt it!! i'm gussing 240+bhp??!!

Hi Paul,
I've just had confirmation that the lad on the photo is NOT the one Sr.Giro remembers.Sorry to put you to any trouble mate !!
Atb


HW

[Paul Collins]

Hi Paul,
I've just had confirmation that the lad on the photo is NOT the one Sr.Giro remembers.Sorry to put you to any trouble mate !!
Atb


HW

No trouble at all mate, I had checked with my mate tonight and he didnt recognise him from school, which is only to be expected if he's a Spaniard

[iomfireblade]

Now then ladies and gentlemen,boys and girls (as Fred Clarke might say) Identity parade time. This photo was taken at the TT in 1970.Sr Giro tells me that a young lad was always around the team as general gopher and guide.I reckon he must have been Manx as english kids would have been at school at TT time.I think he is the one on the far left in the pic. Is this boy YOU sir,or do you know him ? Yep I know its a long shot !!!


HW

hiya new to this site, been looking through it for about 6 mths. answer to the lad is david [des] o,connor whos parents ran the gresham hotel on douglas prom next door to the falcon hotel now [quids inn]. i am sure this is the ossa team members in the photo, i remember them using the falcon hotel garage, in senna road, which use to be used by the bultaco/ derbi teams, and thompson suzuki teams, my child hood memoiries ,stood at the garage door watching them working on the bikes, all the top riders in and out, i was in ore at it all, i could go on and on about the teams/riders where they garaged etc. anyways great site. use to race myself 77- 80 l

[Herr Wankel]

[quote name='iomfireblade' date='Oct 27 2011, 21:39' post='5361898']
hiya new to this site, been looking through it for about 6 mths. answer to the lad is david [des] o,connor whos parents ran the gresham hotel on douglas prom next door to the falcon hotel now [quids inn]. i am sure this is the ossa team members in the photo, i remember them using the falcon hotel garage, in senna road, which use to be used by the bultaco/ derbi teams, and thompson suzuki teams, my child hood memoiries ,stood at the garage door watching them working on the bikes, all the top riders in and out, i was in ore at it all, i could go on and on about the teams/riders where they garaged etc. anyways great site. use to race myself 77- 80 l

iomfireblade, you are a star sir.It is indeed the OSSA team.The guy next to David is Eduardo Giro,engineer/Designer/boss/genius at OSSA.The rider on the OSSA nearest the camera is Carlos Giro,factory rider.who never raced in the island.Herrero is leaning on the old pick-up arms folded.Esteban Oliveras mechanic in the overalls (lovely bloke).Don't know the guy with the cap,but I suspect it may be Eric Houseley,UK importer.The 2 bikes have Derbyshire plates on them,and Eric was from Clay Cross !
Did you race OSSA ?

Very many thanks for your input.

HW

[Paul Collins]

hiya new to this site, been looking through it for about 6 mths. answer to the lad is david [des] o,connor whos parents ran the gresham hotel on douglas prom next door to the falcon hotel now [quids inn]. i am sure this is the ossa team members in the photo, i remember them using the falcon hotel garage, in senna road, which use to be used by the bultaco/ derbi teams, and thompson suzuki teams, my child hood memoiries ,stood at the garage door watching them working on the bikes, all the top riders in and out, i was in ore at it all, i could go on and on about the teams/riders where they garaged etc. anyways great site. use to race myself 77- 80 l

Nice work, and welcome to the site, we could do with a few more Manxies on here with memories from this era, I keep spreading the word about the site amongst the locals.

[Xover]

hiya new to this site, been looking through it for about 6 mths. answer to the lad is david [des] o,connor whos parents ran the gresham hotel on douglas prom next door to the falcon hotel now [quids inn]. i am sure this is the ossa team members in the photo, i remember them using the falcon hotel garage, in senna road, which use to be used by the bultaco/ derbi teams, and thompson suzuki teams, my child hood memoiries ,stood at the garage door watching them working on the bikes, all the top riders in and out, i was in ore at it all, i could go on and on about the teams/riders where they garaged etc. anyways great site. use to race myself 77- 80 l

I remember meeting the guy identified as Sr. Giro, although I didn't know quite who he was at the time, other than Santi's manager. I went along to what was probably the Gresham Hotel with Trevor Burgess to discuss a few things concerning Trevor's production bike. Sr. Giro spoke very good English and was a very charming and interesting man. I think Trevor was riding for Terryshep that same year (citation needed Terry ).
Not sure I should say any more about that particular Ossa!!