90 replies to this topic

[rd500]

have you ever heard an old saying that if you tell a big enough lie to as many uneducated people as you can, they think its true?

if not heres the proof

http://www.visordown...iled/17797.html

just when are "motorcyclists" going to wake up and realise they are being done over, it makes me sick. but always remember its cheaper to rebuild a 4 stroke

and have you heard how they are planning to run traction control on moto x bikes? well that defeats the purpose, its not enough most off road tracks are being closed due to the horrible noisey 4 strokes but they are going to increase costs also.

its a shame that the youth of today will never kow the linear power of a rotary or the excitement of a 2 stroke, having said that i dont know anyone who has a bike now under 30, mind you we wouldnt want to sabotage these tyrannts who control us on the road and on the track theyre personal interests and back handers.

i will not have anything to do with any of the big 4 or that spanish lot, dont buy anything from them, even if its parts for your 2 stroke try and get them aftermarket or secondhand as the money is all going to fund this terrible tyranny. tell the story to as many people as you can so the truth is jknown cause i know a lot of you guts feel the same and really you couldnt script this - its much worse. if you own a 2 stroke or enjoy them then this affects you.

there is already plans to stop the selling of new 2 stroke bikes from the off road dept and the next move will be an outright ban of everything except 4 stroke motorcycles.

ill leave you with this quote from that article....... because for the majority in the real world, nobody is interested in two-stroke engines. They are rarely used now.
and i wonder why that is Corrado Cecchinelli - because of lies and deceit.

cheers ian

Edited by rd500, 28 April 2011 - 10:49.

[GD66]

I wouldn't panic just yet, RD,

http://2stroker.crea.../post44983.html

http://www.twostrokeshop.com

Calm down, son...

No-one's got a gun to your head to watch the GPs, either.... just slip along to a classic race meeting, and all will be well...

Regards GD

Edited by GD66, 28 April 2011 - 10:47.

[rd500]

yes, got my tizzle in a fizzle but have taken a short dosage of starting my h2 up and this has calmed me down! there are guys out there who are trying like http://twostrokemotocross.com/
yes its great to know we still have the classics and i do enjoy watching them when i can whatever the engine type.
it just really worries me, you cant imagine what these chicken hawks will do next

[Russell Burrows]

have you ever heard an old saying that if you tell a big enough lie to as many uneducated people as you can, they think its true?

if not heres the proof

http://www.visordown...iled/17797.html

just when are "motorcyclists" going to wake up and realise they are being done over, it makes me sick. but always remember its cheaper to rebuild a 4 stroke

and have you heard how they are planning to run traction control on moto x bikes? well that defeats the purpose, its not enough most off road tracks are being closed due to the horrible noisey 4 strokes but they are going to increase costs also.

its a shame that the youth of today will never kow the linear power of a rotary or the excitement of a 2 stroke, having said that i dont know anyone who has a bike now under 30, mind you we wouldnt want to sabotage these tyrannts who control us on the road and on the track theyre personal interests and back handers.

i will not have anything to do with any of the big 4 or that spanish lot, dont buy anything from them, even if its parts for your 2 stroke try and get them aftermarket or secondhand as the money is all going to fund this terrible tyranny. tell the story to as many people as you can so the truth is jknown cause i know a lot of you guts feel the same and really you couldnt script this - its much worse. if you own a 2 stroke or enjoy them then this affects you.

there is already plans to stop the selling of new 2 stroke bikes from the off road dept and the next move will be an outright ban of everything except 4 stroke motorcycles.

ill leave you with this quote from that article....... because for the majority in the real world, nobody is interested in two-stroke engines. They are rarely used now.
and i wonder why that is Corrado Cecchinelli - because of lies and deceit.

cheers ian

No case for this design to answer on environmental, safety and horrible noise grounds ?

[llmaurice]

No case for this design to answer on environmental, safety and horrible noise grounds ?

Well. one thing I do have to admit .A cbr1000rr piston IS a darn site cheaper than a £120 piston for a "current" rs250r Honda one but would it stand 14000 real revs as opposed to "only" 7000 of the diesel equivilent I doubt it if you get my meaning.
Just try to imagine valve spring operation if a valve had to operate fully within one revolution of the crank.

[Rennmax]

Well. one thing I do have to admit .A cbr1000rr piston IS a darn site cheaper than a £120 piston for a "current" rs250r Honda one but would it stand 14000 real revs as opposed to "only" 7000 of the diesel equivilent I doubt it if you get my meaning.
Just try to imagine valve spring operation if a valve had to operate fully within one revolution of the crank.

How about pneumatic valves ?

Edit. and the fantastic power output a 4 stroke would have with twice as much combustions

Edited by Rennmax, 28 April 2011 - 20:30.

[llmaurice]

How about pneumatic valves ?

Edit. and the fantastic power output a 4 stroke would have with twice as much combustions

It would be a bit difficult for a 250 single to drag the components around for generating air pressure wouldn't it ?
The "prototype " GP3 bikes that ran in the recent Italian National Championships were SLOW !

[Rennmax]

It would be a bit difficult for a 250 single to drag the components around for generating air pressure wouldn't it ?
The "prototype " GP3 bikes that ran in the recent Italian National Championships were SLOW !

Well, I'm not a engineer by trade so please forgive me if I'm wrong but it works on the MotoGP bikes, so I guess if you need a hydraulic pump which has to serve a single instead a four cylinder engine, thus having a reduced capacity, the device would be possibly small and light enough.
Another interesting thought I came across
'A traditional valve spring is also one pretty tough bit of gear and it must consume a high amount of energy to just get the valves open. If you cut down on this in some way that energy should then increase your engines efficiency..... '
Isn't it amazing after all that Honda's works bikes in the sixties revved higher than their direct 2 stroke competiton, using valve drive which sustained revs up to 22500 rpm with conventional springs

I wonder whether the GP3 bikes which are already run use more or less converted moto cross engines, which should be around the 40/45 bhp mark, which is of course no match for a 125 GP bike. That's not much more than the Morini had half a century ago, so I guess it's not the final word

[terryshep]

It would be a bit difficult for a 250 single to drag the components around for generating air pressure wouldn't it ?
The "prototype " GP3 bikes that ran in the recent Italian National Championships were SLOW !

Not a problem, Maurice. The valve system is operated by a pressure vessel which is charged before the race and requires no power-sapping pump.

It's always been a source of amazement to me that a 3 litre Vee-8 could keep the valves operating properly at 20,000 rpm, as they did in 2006 before the new rules came into Formula One. Even the current engines operating at 18,000 are running 300cc cylinders, so a 14K 250 shouldn't be much of a problem, especially as the mandated bore size is as little as 81mm. F1 V8s are managing to keep 97-98mm diameter pistons together at 18,000rpm. Smaller pistons mean smaller valves, so even less of a problem for them. Current GP2 Hondas are turning at over 16000 and no-one is complaining of valve trouble - with springs. Even the 600s you can buy in the shops turn over at those sort of revs and the CB1000RR has no problem at around the 14000 area, either.

Notwithstanding all this technical wizardry, the possibility of using forced induction opens up all sorts of possibilities for two-strokes, coupled with injection. Let's hope the projected new formula for racing 50, 125 & 250 bikes with no rules comes to pass. Rotary valve, radial 7 cylinders? Roll on!

Edited by terryshep, 29 April 2011 - 17:48.

[jonnoj]

I can't agree with this anti small riders attitude of the rules, when no similar ruling is applied to the 800/1000 bikes. I hope they dump this nonsense that a world champion in the smallest class has to move up to the next class following his win. I believe too many kids are being forced to ride larger bikes before they've gained enough experience. A case in point being Marquez, who's as quick as the front runners in Moto2, but isn't strong enough to stay at his fastest for a full race.

The FIM have a history of bollocking up racing over the years, I expect they will change their minds again in a couple of years.

[exclubracer]

Now that the 125's will be consigned to history, there is also the issue of young riders losing the ability to learn bike set-up, suspension principles etc. whilst learning their racecraft. It seems to be going in the direction of F1 where computer trickery, tyre lottery and pitstop strategy have more influence on who wins or loses races.

Or is that too simplistic?

[tonyed]

Now that the 125's will be consigned to history, there is also the issue of young riders losing the ability to learn bike set-up, suspension principles etc. whilst learning their racecraft. It seems to be going in the direction of F1 where computer trickery, tyre lottery and pitstop strategy have more influence on who wins or loses races.

Or is that too simplistic?

I was watching MotGP practice from Estorial yesterday (avoiding the effin wedding) and Toby (what an idiot) Moody was explaining why Randy DePuniet had problems in morning practice. The rear tyre was shredding due to 'not enough traction control dialled in'

The rider should only need one riding aid - skill.

As a dyed (died?) in the wool old duffer I cannot see the advantage of the modern era of GP machines other than a prooving ground for the developement of the road bikes made by each manufacturer. So Joe Bloggs (or any other national equivalent) can pin the throttle on his (hers) 180bhp Yonda Hiatus and not finish in a big ungainly heap when it turns over leaving the traffic lights.

As for Moto3 - words fail me

[rd500]

excellent post tonyed

[fil2.8]

excellent post tonyed

as always

[TeeZed]

excellent post tonyed

Don

[rd500]

hi, a link to a page, wg giving his thoughts also as he has won on both 2 and 4 stroke aswell

http://twostrokemoto...-class-in-2012/

i remeber in 2001 walker saying you could get away with a lot on a superbike but you dont get away with anything on a 2 stroke race bike, mistake = crash

cheers ian

[rd500]

a link from a guy that admits to being mislead



http://twostrokemoto...wo-stroke-story

[rd500]

the new class of racing we so dearly lust after, and there is going to be a 500 class as suter plans to run a 6 round european championship

So the spirit of this new championship is to take over things where they were killed 20 years ago, and restart/continue innovation.Hence, the basic rule is: no rules.More in detail, the rules:- displacement: 50/125/250 cc as opposed to 4strokes oversize "bigger is better" low powerphilosophy, let's restart with small displacement but high power output

it's not a championship reserved to two-strokes,you are free to participate with a 4T, a Wankel, whatever,if you are able to get enough power out of it

free choice of tire size- free number of speeds in the gearbox, and free transmissions(a gear shifter box isn't actually required, you can use CVTor whatever else solution you can invent)- supercharging allowed, free pressure- free electronics with only two limitations:-- _NO_ drive-by-wire-- _NO_ GPS assisted traction control etc.- free choice of construction materials, except those harming healthlike Asbetos, Berillium, etc.- noise level must be <= 97 db(measured at 10 m distance, vehicle passing by full speed)- free lube and lube system- cooling: only water allowed- free aerodynamics, within general FIM guidelines- dimensions, same as per FIM rules- the rules are made so that you are also free to take part intocompetitions with old race bikes (hopefully restored and tuned)

Then, rules for limiting costs:- each team may have a maximum of 2 bikes for each driver- each team may be made of maximum 5 personsAnd finally:- no age limitations for drivers, no forcing of a class change.If you love a class, you can race in that class all your life long.

what do u guys think, this is meant to be running in 2012, i really hope for this, get it right up hondas toffe noses

Edited by rd500, 01 May 2011 - 16:41.

[picblanc]

Sounds good to me, lets hope it comes off, cant take much more of Motocrap!

[fil2.8]

Sounds good to me, lets hope it comes off, cant take much more of Motocrap!

Agreed , and well said to both of you

[llmaurice]

Apparantly ,the "Moto3" 250s were 8 seconds a lap slower than the "Normal" Aprilias at the recent Italian Nationals at Monza.
Seeing the failure rates of the 250 four strokes in AMA mX I doubt any crosser crankcase could stand the extra power needed to get on a par with the 125s.

[joeninety]

Apparantly ,the "Moto3" 250s were 8 seconds a lap slower than the "Normal" Aprilias at the recent Italian Nationals at Monza.
Seeing the failure rates of the 250 four strokes in AMA mX I doubt any crosser crankcase could stand the extra power needed to get on a par with the 125s.

Lap times are just that, if Moto3 produces closer racing then all well and good. Even though current MotoGP has a faster lap time, a great 125 race with closer racing at lower speeds is far more enjoyable. Three or four dicing on 125's looks faster on telly than someone leading a boring "Faster Race"
I can understand the sounding of the two stroke death knell, envionmental friendly and all that. So if we have five or six engine cum frame manufacturers and no one make tyre rule then let battle commence......

Edited by joeninety, 04 May 2011 - 19:47.

[rd500]

for sure there there is some folks that want close racing and dont care about the bikes, the whole thing is i always thought gps were about the fastest bikes in the world with the best riders.
now we have the best riders with whatever the factorys give us.

a 125,250 or 500 in the 2 stroke gise was the fastest/lightest thing you could get for those classes, we have an fim class for the bikes that everyone rides its called wss/wsb.

the reasons given in that link for the change are nonsense pure and simple, they are some of the same quotes given in the change for moto 2 and moto gp.

i feel like as a 2 stroke rider and enthusiast im being labled as someone who doesnt deserve to be on a motorcycle. im not being pedantic but standing up for what i believe in, the technology is out there like direct inj ect but they arent interested.

now if they want to ruin the sport then go ahead but tell me 1 quote from that article that is true or even makes sense. its just madness.

close racings fine but whats it for - the tv audience, and this equals money, money is what has got to this point of heading up a gum tree.

[tonyed]

Lap times are just that, if Moto3 produces closer racing then all well and good. Even though current MotoGP has a faster lap time, a great 125 race with closer racing at lower speeds is far more enjoyable. Three or four dicing on 125's looks faster on telly than someone leading a boring "Faster Race"
I can understand the sounding of the two stroke death knell, envionmental friendly and all that. So if we have five or six engine cum frame manufacturers and no one make tyre rule then let battle commence......

Great - then limit the top speed to 10mph over 100 meters should give very close racing, never more than a few bike lengths in it.

As for battle, it'll be like two old grannies on their zimmer frames.

If you want close racing watch cycling or NASCAR always close, but never on on my TV.

This MOTO3 is a retrograde step just like MOTOGP and MOTO2. Racing at this level should be about the best on the best not a compromise to suit the suits and the (making) money men.

Four strokes are no more Green than two strokes when taking into account the extra energy, materials and resources used to manufacture and maintain them (engines return to the factory by plane to change the oil filters and have the tappets checked).

The technology to manufacture two strokes that out perform the current four stroke technology in emissions exists but dear old Honda have always been a four stroke company and made two strokes only for Motocross (originally) and when the disastrous Never Ready project failed and they dictate the course of the sport.

Leave four strokes where they should be, in the family womb, the lawn mower and rotavator where plodability is required.

The two stroke engine is a fantastically simple power unit ideal for motorcycles, not this bloody dinosaur of an invention that we see on the roads and tracks with a monstrous dustbin hanging to one side to silence the thing that should have been confined to history years ago.

[rd500]

Great - then limit the top speed to 10mph over 100 meters should give very close racing, never more than a few bike lengths in it.

As for battle, it'll be like two old grannies on their zimmer frames.

If you want close racing watch cycling or NASCAR always close, but never on on my TV.

This MOTO3 is a retrograde step just like MOTOGP and MOTO2. Racing at this level should be about the best on the best not a compromise to suit the suits and the (making) money men.

Four strokes are no more Green than two strokes when taking into account the extra energy, materials and resources used to manufacture and maintain them (engines return to the factory by plane to change the oil filters and have the tappets checked).

The technology to manufacture two strokes that out perform the current four stroke technology in emissions exists but dear old Honda have always been a four stroke company and made two strokes only for Motocross (originally) and when the disastrous Never Ready project failed and they dictate the course of the sport.

Leave four strokes where they should be, in the family womb, the lawn mower and rotavator where plodability is required.

The two stroke engine is a fantastically simple power unit ideal for motorcycles, not this bloody dinosaur of an invention that we see on the roads and tracks with a monstrous dustbin hanging to one side to silence the thing that should have been confined to history years ago.

top man

[fil2.8]

top man

Ditto

[SMonty]

well said toneyed & RD500

I'm definitely with you guys on this one - it's just a shame the manufacturers aren't.

Then again, why should we be surprised. They (and it's the Japanese who are most guilty), have never really had the true interests of the sport at heart, even when they were producing wonderful two stroke racing motorcycles.

As an interesting (and sad) footnote, the North West 200 this year in just over 2 weeks, will feature a 5 race programme without a race for two strokes; supersport, superstock, and superbike classes only - Boring!

[TeeZed]

As an interesting (and sad) footnote, the North West 200 this year in just over 2 weeks, will feature a 5 race programme without a race for two strokes; supersport, superstock, and superbike classes only - Boring!

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly is "SUPER" about them!

Don

[Paul Collins]

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly is "SUPER" about them!

Don

The 'super' bit is short for Super-ficial Don ie they arent the real thing

Edited by Paul Collins, 05 May 2011 - 13:17.

[tonyed]

The 'super' bit is short for Super-ficial Don ie they arent the real thing

They aren't Superbikes this is 'Production Racing'

A couple of years ago I proffered the following opinion on another web site and I still have not changed my view.

In the 'good old days' we had 'Production racing' a class or classes for road machinery to stretch their legs on the track. These classes made up a SMALL part of the program of GP and racing class machinery. I will admit that the road bikes have come on to a point where their spec in greater than any classic or post classic machine, but they are still road bikes, and I don't have to go to a WSBK (or worse as from next year) race to see them, I could stand at the side of the M25 and see these machines, without paying to get into Brands Hatch (but not this year).
I think road based racing, if we have to have it at all, should reflect the aspects of road riding.
In each race there should be:
1.A compulsory ‘pull over by the old bill to check your licence and suggest you bugger off’.
2.A ‘smoke stop’ in a lay by adjacent to the track.
3.A twenty minute wait in a queue of cars unable to filter.
4.A compulsory petrol stop where you have to remove your helmet to indicate to the kiosk workers that you’re not a terrorist or mugger.
5.A puncture.
6.A compulsory ‘pick nick’ stop where a flask of tea and two peanut butter sandwiches have to be consumed.
7.A stop for a ‘call of nature’ in front of the main grandstand.

Also the track, not unlike Super Motard tracks, should have a section only used by the ‘Proddies’ that has to be negotiated each lap that is full of, cones, potholes, small children wandering about unregulated by their parents and of course a section that is constantly being resurfaced but moves about during the race, with temporary traffic lights so timed that it gives a quadriplegic tortoise time to cross.

Now that to me is production based racing, please don’t confuse it with real GP bikes, and please don’t introduce it into MotoGP as a cheap class for the boys.

Edited by tonyed, 05 May 2011 - 16:52.

[joeninety]

I don't understand all the fuss over twostroke V's fourstroke. I have ridden many bikes since the age of ten It never bothered me what engine type as long as it did the job. Times change for the better or worse so we live with the current or ignore it, reminisce and indulge in events with past machinery and riders. Honda seem to get some stick on this forum why ? They are the worlds largest producer of specialist engines two and fourstroke. I would like to add all but one of my racing bikes was a two stroke, simple and easy to re-build and for those who know how easier to tune on a shoestring budget.
I would be interested in Rod's opinion, after all he raced a 125 Honda fourstroke in the sixties and a 125 Honda twostroke in the late seventies early eighties. The obvious points of interest would be costs of maintenance and technical problems if any.
I think a debate rather than triviality would be more interesting....
Furthermore I would like to add the last time I was involved in racing in the early nineties I was concerned at the number of "Road Bikes" supersport etc. competing, most of the riders if not all couldn't have even started a TD1c.
Just a few thoughts

Edited by joeninety, 05 May 2011 - 18:53.

[rd500]

well we all know that for a given capacity a 2 stroke is more powerful, lighter, and costs less to run and maintain. so the real question is not about 2 v 4, its the fact we have our grand prix grids full of 4 stroke engined, electronic motorcycles that are not the fastest or the lightest bikes they have the ability to produce.

statements like the ones being given out by our dorna friend there are the most ridiculous things ive ever read, now this is where the marketing bit comes in, outrageous quotes like these are meant to justfy why they have made these changes, the big 4 seem obsessed with this bigger is better which is why the 4 strokes you will see in the showroom are 600s and 1000s, ring any bells?

now the other side of these quotes is to mislead the customer into thinking that this is the best and only option for them, there has been no effort made by the manufacturer's to stop this forcing onto these types of bikes even for inexperienced riders as the marketing game has pushed this into the biking community worldwide.

also these type of comments are basically to steer unknowing and inexperienced riders away from two strokes, and by dorna/fim and ama basically trying to get rid of them from racing and succeeding, this in turn ensures that the manufacturer's can gain full mark up by monopolising the whole industry and leaving riders who ride or even enjoy these engines confined to the few, whos voices will slowly disappear as they are forced out in the cold.. as a motorcyclist do we think this is the way it should be?

there is so much to this thats its actually very worrying where this is all going, the cost of these bikes is madness, its all electronics. theres nothing new about the engines, hence when i used to hear toby moody in 2002 saying things like "the 4stroke revolution" i cringed.

what revolution, great, so what actually happened was they built something twice the capacity with an extra cylinder, genius, and it could only beat an "outdated" nsr in a straight line. thats meant to be progress?

they are lying to us and hoping the people that have found them out arent listened to by average joe who has been brainwashed into thinking its all good.
i just cant see where people cant see it if you get my meaning.

cheers ian

[exclubracer]

Tony and Ian both on the mark.

But... what do I know, eh? I was just a stinkwheel plodder who went out and enjoyed the tracks and the paddock. Try that now at a British national meeting, if you don't have a PR rep or management consultant in tow, see how far you you will progress...

[fil2.8]

Tony and Ian both on the mark.

But... what do I know, eh? I was just a stinkwheel plodder who went out and enjoyed the tracks and the paddock. Try that now at a British national meeting, if you don't have a PR rep or management consultant in tow, see how far you you will progress...

Well said , Mick , that's why the classic scene is so good ..........................

[joeninety]

"that's why the classic scene is so good"
I agree but it's a different kettle of fish compared to sport as it is now. I love the old fashioned values of sportmanship but sadly money and image has taken over. I disagree with the pet hate of the forum that Honda only participate for the ultimate goal of sales, maybe they did, or do, so why did Norton, Velocette, Scott etc. compete?
I must add for the Honda loathing amongst the ranks I would like to say this, I know someone who was closely involved in the development of the NR, this person was very good at two stroke tuning, Honda had an RG 500 engine on a dyno, his simple tuning was stopped after a short while when BHP started to rise alarmingly with minimal ajustments ie. to jetting, he never got round to squish bands....

[tonyed]

"that's why the classic scene is so good"
I agree but it's a different kettle of fish compared to sport as it is now. I love the old fashioned values of sportmanship but sadly money and image has taken over. I disagree with the pet hate of the forum that Honda only participate for the ultimate goal of sales, maybe they did, or do, so why did Norton, Velocette, Scott etc. compete?
I must add for the Honda loathing amongst the ranks I would like to say this, I know someone who was closely involved in the development of the NR, this person was very good at two stroke tuning, Honda had an RG 500 engine on a dyno, his simple tuning was stopped after a short while when BHP started to rise alarmingly with minimal ajustments ie. to jetting, he never got round to squish bands....

That is what every govenment in the world, every advertising agency and many other rely on. It's easy to sell the gullible crap

I go to my supermarket and buy goods at 'half price' never seen them at full price in years so who are they trying to kid

Save £10 grand on this car -hang on - if you could shift it for 10grand more you would.

It's all BULLSHIT, FLIMFLAM or whatever.

Problem is they get away with it, the peddlars of this ****.

The only recourse is to stop buying, stop watching, stop supporting MOTOBANAL and its' Casey Stonebrains and Dani Pedantics.

Buy better, buy anything Bye Bye for now

[joeninety]

That is what every govenment in the world, every advertising agency and many other rely on. It's easy to sell the gullible crap

I go to my supermarket and buy goods at 'half price' never seen them at full price in years so who are they trying to kid

Save £10 grand on this car -hang on you could shift it for 10grand more you would.

It's all BULLSHIT, FLIMFLAM or whatever.

Problem is they get away with it, the peddlars of this ****.

The only recourse is to stop buying, stop watching, stop supporting MOTOBANAL and its' Casey Stonebrains and Dani Pedantics.

Buy better, buy anything Bye Bye for now

I don't quite get this, fact is Motorcycle manufactures compete to show off their supremacy and entice us to buy their product, after all we have a choice and always have. What your saying is some are influencing the rules to suit their products by fostering their ideals. The MotoGP racing world is an open market ie to Aprilia etc, even Suzuki and Kawasaki have problems competing with Honda and Yamaha. I think Moto2 should be more open engine wise but does produce some good racing. Moto3 should be geared to entice the likes of smaller teams-companies such as Aprilia,Gilera etc.
Anyway off now to consume more of my usuall tipple of Carlsberg Special Brew mixed with Brasso and indulge in my favourite DVD "The very best of Pathe news" Not quite YET !

Edited by joeninety, 07 May 2011 - 19:53.

[tonyed]

I don't quite get this, fact is Motorcycle manufactures compete to show off their supremacy and entice us to buy their product, after all we have a choice and always have. What your saying is some are influencing the rules to suit their products by fostering their ideals. The MotoGP racing world is an open market ie to Aprilia etc, even Suzuki and Kawasaki have problems competing with Honda and Yamaha. I think Moto2 should be more open engine wise but does produce some good racing. Moto3 should be geared to entice the likes of smaller teams-companies such as Aprilia,Gilera etc.
Anyway off now to consume more of my usuall tipple of Carlsberg Special Brew mixed with Brasso and indulge in my favourite DVD "The very best of Pathe news" Not quite YET !

I agree - MotoX is Dornas product, thetv are in it to make money and have apart form WSBK retain a world wide monopoly, so you get what they want. If you don't want it there is no compulsion to buy.

However it is the sales pitch that annoys me.

How has intoducing a four stroke series:

1. Reduced costs?

2. Added spectacle (apart from Moto2 bikes being thrown into the kitty litter at an alarming rate, the 'Dorna Crash' series)?

3. Improved the sports 'green' credentials?

4. Improved the image of the sport (as grids melt away)?

Perhaps that is what I am failing to see, it is not a sport, it is not a service to the spectator it is a product to be sold and there is nothing as effective as a disinformation campaign (WHICH ALL COMMERCIAL ADVERTISING IS)

To cut costs, cut all the corporate F1 style crap, all the merchanding of cheap Chinese made tat, the pampering to Hollywood (soon I gather to be Bollywood) stars who make equally as worthless films.

I know it won't happen, GP racing is too far round Formula One bend to save.

So switch on the box, get out the Special Brew and Brasso and watch as GP racing goes down the pan.

PS - Any report of the 1949 TT on 'Best of the Pathe News' last night?

[rd500]

"What your saying is some are influencing the rules to suit their products by fostering their ideals"

youre starting to get it now hence why all classes from showroom to club to international level are 600/1000, who benefits, us or them?

Edited by rd500, 08 May 2011 - 23:08.

[llmaurice]

And the scrap man benefits from the Ducati 848 series ?
Someone mentioned he didn't see what all the fuss was regards 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
Try a 350lc with Lomas pipes on the road pal ! Nowhere near as fast as modern 4 strokes but oh,that powerband ,whilst it lasted or the fule tap could no longer pass enough fuel and you had to knock it off.
I've just "retired" from the BSB paddock ,mainly because a few weeks ago I went to Cadwell to help a friend with his TZ in the North Gloucester ACU series.
The reason I've packed it in ? The involvement in optimizing the old two stroke day by day brought back so much enjoyment that there is no point in doing BSB anymore .
Thats the difference !

[fil2.8]

And the scrap man benefits from the Ducati 848 series ?
Someone mentioned he didn't see what all the fuss was regards 2 stroke vs 4 stroke
Try a 350lc with Lomas pipes on the road pal ! Nowhere near as fast as modern 4 strokes but oh,that powerband ,whilst it lasted or the fule tap could no longer pass enough fuel and you had to knock it off.
I've just "retired" from the BSB paddock ,mainly because a few weeks ago I went to Cadwell to help a friend with his TZ in the North Gloucester ACU series.
The reason I've packed it in ? The involvement in optimizing the old two stroke day by day brought back so much enjoyment that there is no point in doing BSB anymore .
Thats the difference !

Well said

[joeninety]

With all the ins and outs of late regarding two strokes that are still very prominent in 50cc road bikes should there be a world class series for them to showcase their brands. I always keep an eye on the 50's via this forum by the way. It's a fantastic way for the smaller companies to compete with the Japanese or even an idividual to produce innovative ideas engine and frame wise. My only restriction would be of a single cylinder format. Now Honda could prove their fourstroke technology with an oval pistoned fuel injected four spark plug 28 valve gem......What about a rotary 50cc cum 150cc just to get the boffings amongst the rule makers scratching their heads....With this in mind the British empire could re-establish its former glory....Perhaps then the New Imperial brand name could be resurrected with an engine that runs backwards ! The QUB concept should be in the mix somewhere.
Just a thought ;)

Edited by joeninety, 12 May 2011 - 20:09.

[Herr Wankel]

With all the ins and outs of late regarding two strokes that are still very prominent in 50cc road bikes should there be a world class series for them to showcase their brands. I always keep an eye on the 50's via this forum by the way. It's a fantastic way for the smaller companies to compete with the Japanese or even an idividual to produce innovative ideas engine and frame wise. My only restriction would be of a single cylinder format. Now Honda could prove their fourstroke technology with an oval pistoned fuel injected four spark plug 28 valve gem......What about a rotary 50cc cum 150cc just to get the boffings amongst the rule makers scratching their heads....With this in mind the British empire could re-establish it's former glory....Perhaps then the New Imperial brand name could be resurrected with an engine that runs backwards ! The QUB concept should be in the mix somewhere.
Just a thought ;)

Hey Joe don't you ressurect that old 3 X chestnut !! Its not us Wankelers fault you piston engined boys can't keep up

Atb HW

[joeninety]

Hey Joe don't you ressurect that old 3 X chestnut !! Its not us Wankelers fault you piston engined boys can't keep up

Atb HW

Interesting thought though and would qualify for "my" new class Even Suzuki failed with the Wankel engine, sales wise. I understand the Norton rotary was a hit within the light aircraft engine fraternaty

Edited by joeninety, 12 May 2011 - 20:24.

[Herr Wankel]

Interesting thought though and would qualify for "my" new class Even Suzuki failed with the Wankel engine, sales wise. I understand the Norton rotary was a hit within the light aircraft engine fratenaty

In the Kart world too at the moment AIXRO AR50 (google it) same capacity as mine but with about 40% more neddies.

HW

[rd500]

just to let you know

http://motogpbrits.c...for-five-years/

that will warm your hearts no question

well i wonder over the years to come how much more development can be lost.

just to note i saw a picture the other day of a moriwaki moto 2 with no fairing and man that frame looks outdated, on a 250 it was neat and compact but this, it reminded me of a fzr1000 genesis frame.

the 250s were forced to be an extinct species for these, it still had the hole marked for the horn and its heavier than a bike with 75bhp more than it 10 years ago

roll out the moto 3 they might as well complete the wipeout patting themselves on the back for a job well done.

this isnt about 2 v 4 stroke this is just wrong full stop.

when it was the original classes you could race whatever you wanted up to that class cc limit -rotary, 2/4 stroke whatever. why are these guys at dorna so frightened of anything other than an exact cc 4 stroke (all production based from next year)

wait a minute i know its all coming back to me, now which of the force fed lies they have given me will restore my faith in this, not one them.

can you tell this subject gets me a little agitated about the forced extinction of an engine at current levels that has so many advantages.

rant over (again)

[Herr Wankel]

I just heaved a comment up on their web thingy,but I doubt if it will get past the moderators.Its not what they want to hear

HW (AKA Grumpy Git)

[rd500]

brilliant HW, they wont like that one "for sure"

[Herr Wankel]

brilliant HW, they wont like that one "for sure"

Hey they put it on.Now 'I ham veery appy'

HW

[fil2.8]

Hey they put it on.Now 'I ham veery appy'

HW

Errrrrr , could you steer me in the right direction ( thread wise ), please , old chap