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Qualifying Averages Between Team Mates


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#51 Watkins74

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 14:09

Dunder - I am drawing a blank, what do you mean by the shaded "excluded results"? Thank you.

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#52 Scotracer

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 14:10

Dunder - I am drawing a blank, what do you mean by the shaded "excluded results"? Thank you.


I too don't get it. Do you have some sort of standard deviation criteria you're working to?

#53 joshb

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 14:11

I know Heidfeld hasn't spent too much time in the car but I'm surprised at the gap to Petrov in qualy. also didn't expect Nico to be 0.5 up on Schumi

#54 Dunder

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 14:14

Dunder - I am drawing a blank, what do you mean by the shaded "excluded results"? Thank you.


Post 21.
To avoid having to subjectively decide on what is a "fair result" due to different use of tyres of drivers being blocked in traffic etc etc. each drivers worst result is excluded from the average.
After 9 races, I will increase this to the worst 2 results.
After 14 races, I will increase this to the worst 3 results.


#55 Watkins74

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 14:20

Post 21.
To avoid having to subjectively decide on what is a "fair result" due to different use of tyres of drivers being blocked in traffic etc etc. each drivers worst result is excluded from the average.
After 9 races, I will increase this to the worst 2 results.
After 14 races, I will increase this to the worst 3 results.

Ohhhhhhhhhhh. Thanks, I understand now. :cool:

#56 Grenada

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 14:42

As promised, I have updated the figures according to the original methodology:

Drivers
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I realise it is early days but the biggest surprises to me are the gap between Vettel and Webber and the d'Ambrosio is matching Glock.

Cars
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Great stats. Remind me why certain results are excluded.

Edit: just saw your explanation above.

Edited by Grenada, 07 May 2011 - 14:43.


#57 Dunder

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 15:40

Fair to say that is a very positive trend for Mercedes in terms of quali pace. Williams too.
Both of them are beginning to show something like their pre-season form.

#58 NateF

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 15:44

Fair to say that is a very positive trend for Mercedes in terms of quali pace. Williams too.
Both of them are beginning to show something like their pre-season form.

Is there some correlation between the cooler temps and the difference between McLaren and RBR?

Edited by NateF, 07 May 2011 - 15:45.


#59 robefc

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 15:49

May be of interest (scroll down)

http://www.f1fanatic...fying-analysis/

Edited by robefc, 07 May 2011 - 15:49.


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#60 Dunder

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 15:52

Is there some correlation between the cooler temps and the difference between McLaren and RBR?


Not enough data to be in anyway conclusive.
The only result that stands out is, of course, Malaysia where it has been suggested that RBR had to increase cooling measures. Aside from that there is no correlation between track temperature and lap time.


#61 Dunder

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 15:57

May be of interest (scroll down)

http://www.f1fanatic...fying-analysis/


Tks.
I did actually consider increasing the scope of the comparison to include optimum laps and the 'times from same session' method but decided it would be too time consuming.
As the amount of data increases, I would fully expect, the various methods to show a very similar picture anyway.


#62 Nustang70

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 19:53

Great table, Dunder.

#63 tyker

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:36

After Turkey (Turkey difference)

1. Liuzzi 0.86s (0.872s)
2. Vettel 0.51s (0.405s)
3. Rosberg 0.44s (0.547s)
4. Alonso 0.41s (0.544s)
5. Kovalainen 0.388s (0.893s)
6. Kobayashi 0.381s (-)
7. Hamilton 0.26s (0.387s)
8. Petrov 0.23s (0.363s)
9. Barrichello 0.21s (0.472s)
10.Buemi 0.2s (0.317s)
11. Glock 0.09s (-0.368s)
12.Sutil 0.05s (0.118s)


#64 tyker

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:59

As promised, I have updated the figures according to the original methodology:

Drivers
Posted Image

I realise it is early days but the biggest surprises to me are the gap between Vettel and Webber and the d'Ambrosio is matching Glock.

Cars
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Just 0.095s averaged difference between us Dunder

#65 tyker

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:51

After Barcelona (Barcelona difference)

1. Liuzzi 0.71s (0.099s)
2. Alonso 0.5136s (0.924s)
3. Vettel 0.5135s (-)
4. Kovalainen 0.44s (0.647s)
5. Rosberg 0.37s (0.102s)
6. Glock 0.32s (1.241s)
7. Buemi 0.25s (0.463s)
8. Petrov 0.23s (-)
9. Hamilton 0.22s (0.035s)
10.Kobayashi 0.213s (-0.289s)
11. Barrichello 0.2057s (-)
10.Buemi 0.2s (0.317s)
12.Di Resta 0.02s (0.316s)

#66 Brandz07

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:57

After Barcelona (Barcelona difference)

1. Liuzzi 0.71s (0.099s)
2. Alonso 0.5136s (0.924s)
3. Vettel 0.5135s (-)
4. Kovalainen 0.44s (0.647s)
5. Rosberg 0.37s (0.102s)
6. Glock 0.32s (1.241s)
7. Buemi 0.25s (0.463s)
8. Petrov 0.23s (-)
9. Hamilton 0.22s (0.035s)
10.Kobayashi 0.213s (-0.289s)
11. Barrichello 0.2057s (-)
10.Buemi 0.2s (0.317s)
12.Di Resta 0.02s (0.316s)


why no difference between Webber and Vettel this session?

edit: oh kers

Edited by Brandz07, 21 May 2011 - 14:58.


#67 tyker

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:59

why no difference between Webber and Vettel this session?

edit: oh kers

Yes

#68 rog

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 15:11

After Barcelona (Barcelona difference)

1. Liuzzi 0.71s (0.099s)
2. Alonso 0.5136s (0.924s)
3. Vettel 0.5135s (-)
4. Kovalainen 0.44s (0.647s)
5. Rosberg 0.37s (0.102s)
6. Glock 0.32s (1.241s)
7. Buemi 0.25s (0.463s)
8. Petrov 0.23s (-)
9. Hamilton 0.22s (0.035s)
10.Kobayashi 0.213s (-0.289s)
11. Barrichello 0.2057s (-)
10.Buemi 0.2s (0.317s)
12.Di Resta 0.02s (0.316s)



Vettels Barcelona time is missing. KERS issue or any other issues are irrelevant. If you count it out you should do the same for all other drivers who suffered issues. That's impossible to do every time without insider infos. For example Barrichello had a gearbox issue this Qualifying and you didn't count him out.

Edited by rog, 21 May 2011 - 15:11.


#69 tyker

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 16:25

Vettels Barcelona time is missing. KERS issue or any other issues are irrelevant. If you count it out you should do the same for all other drivers who suffered issues. That's impossible to do every time without insider infos. For example Barrichello had a gearbox issue this Qualifying and you didn't count him out.

Yes i did exclude Barrichello

#70 Dunder

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 16:43

Updated after Barcelona

Drivers
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Although he did set a time, I have excluded Barrichello from this session.

Cars
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Interesting that Williams were the fastest of the midfield 4 for the second race running.
Obviously it could just be the nature of the track but it would appear that RBR took the biggest step forward here.

Edited by Dunder, 21 May 2011 - 16:48.


#71 H2H

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:04


Well done. Do you take one result out of five out? Basically 4 in 19/20 races?

Thanks

#72 Dunder

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:07

Well done. Do you take one result out of five out? Basically 4 in 19/20 races?

Thanks


The idea is to take out each driver's and car's worst result after the 4th, 9th and 14th races, so 6 races excluded in the driver's calculation and 3 for the cars.


#73 Brandz07

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:09

Schumacher had a KERS issue :p

#74 H2H

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:12

The idea is to take out each driver's and car's worst result after the 4th, 9th and 14th races, so 6 races excluded in the driver's calculation and 3 for the cars.


3-4 is pretty much ideal, at least my data about last season smoothened out with 4 IIRC on each side, it depends a bit on circumstances. With a bit more races you can test that pretty easily.

Edited by H2H, 21 May 2011 - 17:13.


#75 rog

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:13

Yes i did exclude Barrichello


And did you exclude Webber for China? His KERS wasn't working as well. Sorry you cannot consider all issues for all drivers as you can see. It didn't work this way.

#76 rog

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:37

Updated after Barcelona



+0,072 between Rosberg and Schumacher, how is that possible? Schumacher did not made a lap in Q3, so you can either use Q2 laps from both or the best laps overall, that would be Q2 times as well. +0,102 is the right difference.

#77 Dunder

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:42

+0,072 between Rosberg and Schumacher, how is that possible? Schumacher did not made a lap in Q3, so you can either use Q2 laps from both or the best laps overall, that would be Q2 times as well. +0,102 is the right difference.


Yeah, I made a mistake with Rosberg's time (it should have been his Q2 time).
I won't repost that above table but have updated it my 'master' record.
Thanks.


#78 tyker

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 23:56

And did you exclude Webber for China? His KERS wasn't working as well. Sorry you cannot consider all issues for all drivers as you can see. It didn't work this way.

I gave Webber the benefit of 3 tenths i didnt want to discount the fact that Vettel outqualified him quite comfortably

#79 Dunder

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 21:11

Updated after Monaco

Drivers
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nb. Just spotted a small aesthetic error. For the Louts drivers, the shaded result from Australia is not excluded from the average, whereas the result from Barcelona (correctly) is.

Cars
Posted Image

Edited by Dunder, 28 May 2011 - 21:16.


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#80 Zava

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 21:23

RBR, Barcelona, why -0.283 for Webber?

Pos No Driver Team Q3
1 2 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 1:20.981
2 1 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 1:21.181

that looks like -0.200 to me. :drunk:

#81 Dunder

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 21:30

RBR, Barcelona, why -0.283 for Webber?

Pos No Driver Team Q3
1 2 Mark Webber RBR-Renault 1:20.981
2 1 Sebastian Vettel RBR-Renault 1:21.181

that looks like -0.200 to me. :drunk:


I have updated my record but will not repost because the result is excluded from the average anyway.



#82 Ricardo F1

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 21:34

How can you have a time for the McLaren drivers in Monaco? :confused:

#83 Totza

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 21:50

How can you do it for Mclaren? Hamilton was clearly the faster of the 2 this weekend...

#84 Dunder

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 21:51

How can you have a time for the McLaren drivers in Monaco? :confused:


It is the fastest lap regardless of which session it is set. Hami's lap from Q2 is used.
The result for Monaco is currently excluded from the average anyway.

Methodology is in post #21.

Edited by Dunder, 28 May 2011 - 21:52.


#85 Nustang70

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 00:09

Great work, Dunder. This is the first thread I look for after qualifying. :up:

#86 H2H

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 18:47


tyker and Dunder, much appreciated.

:up:

#87 olliek88

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Posted 29 May 2011 - 19:09

Great work but i was wondering why the Force Inida drivers results were excluded at the Spanish GP?

#88 Dunder

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 15:29

Great work but i was wondering why the Force Inida drivers results were excluded at the Spanish GP?


Each driver's best and worst result is excluded from the average.
I find it easier to have fixed number of exclusions (there will be three for each driver by the end of the season) as opposed to having to subjectively decide what is or is not a 'fair' result.

#89 marcoferrari

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 11:18

Updated after Monaco

Drivers
Posted Image

nb. Just spotted a small aesthetic error. For the Louts drivers, the shaded result from Australia is not excluded from the average, whereas the result from Barcelona (correctly) is.

Cars
Posted Image


Sorry, but have you realised that Alguersuari set 1:16,617 in FP3, which clearly shows he had a traffic problem in qualifying?  ;)
http://www.f1.sk/vys...e=2011.MCO.fp21

You were speaking about counting fastest times of the weekend, if I remember it properly, so that time was his fastest in this year s Monaco...  ;) Its a bit ridiculous to think he was 1,5 seconds slower... :)



#90 Dunder

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 12:49

Sorry, but have you realised that Alguersuari set 1:16,617 in FP3, which clearly shows he had a traffic problem in qualifying? ;)
http://www.f1.sk/vys...e=2011.MCO.fp21

You were speaking about counting fastest times of the weekend, if I remember it properly, so that time was his fastest in this year s Monaco... ;) Its a bit ridiculous to think he was 1,5 seconds slower... :)


It is based on best time from qualifying only.
FP times are not used.

1.5 seconds, of course, was not representative but, again, it is currently excluded from the average (all shaded results are).


#91 marcoferrari

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 12:56

It is based on best time from qualifying only.
FP times are not used.

1.5 seconds, of course, was not representative but, again, it is currently excluded from the average (all shaded results are).


Ok then, that makes sense... :)

#92 Dunder

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 21:55

Updated after Canada.

Drivers
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Cars
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#93 joshb

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 22:45

will you e omitting Webbers one as he didn't have KERS. or is it just the 2 biggest swings either way

#94 Dunder

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Posted 11 June 2011 - 22:50

will you e omitting Webbers one as he didn't have KERS. or is it just the 2 biggest swings either way


Methodology is as follows:

Each driver is credited with his fastest time regardless of whether it was set in Q1, Q2 or Q3.
No results are amended.

I would intend to account for anomalies as follows:
After 4 races the worst result for each driver will be excluded from the mean average (which will therefore be the average of 3 sessions at that stage)
After 9 races the worst 2 results for each driver will be excluded from the mean average (which will therefore be the average of 6 sessions at that stage)
After 14 races the worst 3 results for each driver will be excluded from the mean average (which will therefore be the average of 9 sessions at that stage).

I think it is necessary to have the fairly large number of excluded results and to take the best result regardless of session simply due to tyre availability (or lack thereof), KERS failures, traffic, red flags and the like.





#95 Kohque

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 03:10

Updated after Canada.

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Great tables, thanks!

It is easy to see why it is likely that Buemi will replace Webber next year. I suppose Toro Rosso will keep Alguersuari one more year to gauge Riccardio against him. It is unlikely they will leave two seats available for new drivers.

Wow, watch out for Di Resta... What an incredible performance for a rookie driver... and against Sutil. I hope McLaren or Ferrari can snatch him from Force India before Mercedes does, though watching him against Rosberg would be quite interesting too.

#96 carlb5253

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 03:21

Would be better if you only compared times when team mates both had unaffected runs.

I.e - Webber not making it out of Q1 and Hamiltons problems in Monaco, as well as many more...

Doesn't seem correct to compare these times to there team mates.

#97 Dunder

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 11:43

Would be better if you only compared times when team mates both had unaffected runs.

I.e - Webber not making it out of Q1 and Hamiltons problems in Monaco, as well as many more...

Doesn't seem correct to compare these times to there team mates.


The red shaded figures (like Webber in China) are not included in the average.

Define an "unaffected run".


#98 rommel

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 11:57

I think lap times should only be used from sessions both drivers competed in because track conditions and other things can change in later sessions. Also i'm not sure if excluding so many bad results is representative, as it can really affect the average for no reason at all. For example Spain is excluded for Massa, but why should it be?

Results should only be excluded if there were mitigating circumstances, like car trouble, traffic, weather. One arbitary exclusion over a season might be ok though.

#99 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 13:47

I think lap times should only be used from sessions both drivers competed in because track conditions and other things can change in later sessions. Also i'm not sure if excluding so many bad results is representative, as it can really affect the average for no reason at all. For example Spain is excluded for Massa, but why should it be?

Results should only be excluded if there were mitigating circumstances, like car trouble, traffic, weather. One arbitary exclusion over a season might be ok though.

One bad result is affecting the average an it's not representative.

For instance if you suck at one race (1 sec off pace) and you are faster with 0.005 in the others.. The average using the 1 sec gap is not representative at all.

On the other hand if that 1sec is not an accident-> removing it won't affect anything

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#100 Dunder

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 14:02

Updated after Valencia.
After Silverstone the second 'tier' of exclusions will be applied.

Drivers
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Cars
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