170 replies to this topic

[Andrew Hope]

How would you answer this question? Interpret 'fearless' to mean anything you want it to mean - from courageous and ballsy to ignorant of danger to the point of stupidity, and interpret 'risks' to mean anything as well - from taking certain parts of certain tracks flat where others lifted, or driving specific cars no one else would touch, etc. That racing is dangerous is not news to anyone, but in following racing for however many years you have, who are some of the drivers you've seen that you would consider what we might call 'uncommonly fearless'? The sort of driver who takes risks above and beyond those generally taken by his contemporaries, either being much more riskier than others, or taking the same risks as them more often?

In this discussion, please let no other skills come into the equation, and let your answers be unburdened by results, statistics, and success. It does not matter if the drivers that come to mind when you read this ever won so much as a thumb war if you would consider them fearless behind the wheel of a racing car - who are some of the drivers that left your jaw dropped, or earned fame (or, perhaps, infamy) for their ability to drive without fear? I know that to some degree all drivers can be considered courageous, but are there any drivers you could nominate specifically for being comparatively fearless, seemingly immune to the effects of danger towards us mere mortals?

Any kind of racing is fair game to be discussed, and speak generally or give specific examples if you wish. Let's get a good discussion going. Who comes to mind for you? Why? How important were these abilities back in the day compared to now? Etc.

[seccotine]

What does "fearless" really mean?

James Hunt could be so stressed before a race that he used to vomit before getting in his car. Fear, obviously. But once behind the wheel, he was also known for being more daring than most of his colleagues. How to call him then?

Villeneuve was said to know nothing, absolutely nothing, about fear. It is the first name that comes to my mind.

[EvDelft]

If there is any list, you can add Kubica on it. Also a man to be known of not having any fear.

[Tmeranda]

Indianapolis' Jim Hurtubise come to mind. Herk was cars around the oval at speeds that make others pale. On the outside of his garage in gasoline alley, he hung a huge pair of brass balls. When someone asked him what they were for he replied, "I strap them on when it's time to qualify."

[plutoman]

What does "fearless" really mean?

James Hunt could be so stressed before a race that he used to vomit before getting in his car. Fear, obviously. But once behind the wheel, he was also known for being more daring than most of his colleagues. How to call him then?

Villeneuve was said to know nothing, absolutely nothing, about fear. It is the first name that comes to my mind.

I'd say Hunt was 'brave' rather than 'fearless'. He clearly had a nervous disposition, but was able to overcome his fears when in the car. Villeneuve, on the other hand, was totally calm in the face of danger. There was an occasion when he and Pironi were both wired up to heart-rate monitors over a race weekend, and I seem to recall that the results were astonishing - Gilles hardly raised a blip, whereas Didier's heart was pumping away at around 200bpm for most of the race.

[Tim Murray]

Yes indeed - it was at the 1981 Monaco GP. Villeneuve's heart rate never rose above 120-130 when out on track, whereas Pironi's stayed above 170 all the time he was on track and rose to a peak of 207 when someone spun in front of him. There was, though, a strange blip in Gilles's heart rate at a time when he was relaxing in the paddock, which no-one could understand at first until they worked out it was when he was chatting to a very attractive young woman.

[Bauble]

Willy Mairesse, Jean Behra, John Surtees, Froilian Gonzales, Vittorio Brambilla all spring to mind as proper 'racers', but Gilles for my money is the prime example of the breed. None of these would I rank among the 'crazies', whom should remain nameless to avoid litigation.

From the fifties there were two drivers who always made you worry, A P O 'Bert' Rogers and Percy Crabbe.

Edited by Bauble, 06 May 2011 - 13:37.

[Bob Riebe]

ANY- ANY-sprint car- **** box- driver!

[RStock]

ANY- ANY-sprint car- **** box- driver!

They don't call Jac Haudenschild "The Wild Child" because he was raised by wolves.

[Amphicar]

David Charles Purley GM

[Phil Rainford]

David Charles Purley GM

You beat me to it.....

PAR

[AllTwelve]

Nuvolari

[Phil Rainford]

Colin McRae



PAR

[Andrew Hope]

David Charles Purley GM

Thought he might come up. He's certainly in the discussion.

[Rob Miller]

Ex motorcycle champions like Nuvolari, Behra and Surtees must have regarded most of the other drivers as sissies.

Masten Gregory was fairly fearless.

[Phil Rainford]

Ex motorcycle champions like Nuvolari, Behra and Surtees must have regarded most of the other drivers as sissies.

And Hailwood?


PAR

[Ray Bell]

Did anyone here ever read Buford's posts?

Especially about the fire...

[E1pix]

Yes indeed - it was at the 1981 Monaco GP. Villeneuve's heart rate never rose above 120-130 when out on track, whereas Pironi's stayed above 170 all the time he was on track and rose to a peak of 207 when someone spun in front of him. There was, though, a strange blip in Gilles's heart rate at a time when he was relaxing in the paddock, which no-one could understand at first until they worked out it was when he was chatting to a very attractive young woman.

I love this! Gilles was my first choice....

Perhaps once one throws a snowmobile around at 120 mph, being strapped into a Formula One cars feels rather safe.

Seeing Jody Scheckter in F5000 also comes to mind.... sideways at any speed, any corner, anytime, anywhere.

[Andrew Hope]

Did anyone here ever read Buford's posts?

Especially about the fire...

I remember that story (the sprint car crash and fire). Buford talking about how annoyed he was that he was rescued. Amazing story.

[stevewf1]

Villeneuve was said to know nothing, absolutely nothing, about fear. It is the first name that comes to my mind.

I'm personally not so sure... I think there's a difference between fearless and reckless. Somewhere around here, I have an issue of MotorSport with an article about Villeneuve. In that article, there is a quote from Derek Warwick that went something like this "The journalists who fell in love with Villeneuve didn't see the nutcase we saw on the track"...

[E1pix]

"The journalists who fell in love with Villeneuve didn't see the nutcase we saw on the track"...

Hey, Hey, Hey!

I like Warwick.... but Derek could only wish to drive like Gilles!

One man's "ragged edge" ability is another man's "nutcase."

The Records:
Villeneuve - 6 wins in 67 starts (9%)
Warwick - 0 wins in 162 starts (0%)

Edited by E1pix, 07 May 2011 - 01:06.

[SJ Lambert]

Alessandro Nannini was displaying a set of big ones whilst pushing his Benneton through the esses lap after lap one year at Adelaide.

[Lola5000]

K.Bartlett in the wet at Bathurst in the big Chev.

[SJ Lambert]

K.Bartlett in the wet at Bathurst in the big Chev.

Didn't he drive one of them upside down at one stage (at Bathurst even)?

[cheapracer]

I'm personally not so sure... I think there's a difference between fearless and reckless. Somewhere around here, I have an issue of MotorSport with an article about Villeneuve. In that article, there is a quote from Derek Warwick that went something like this "The journalists who fell in love with Villeneuve didn't see the nutcase we saw on the track"...

Yup, people often make the mistake of calling reckless and oversteer drivers "fearless".

I actually think fast drivers who prefer a slightly understeering car are braver because all they can do is go wide or back off when passing the limit and staring at everything on the outside of the corner or the grass on the wrong side of the curbing approaching rapidly and of course the brave ones don't lift. Of course they mistakingly earn the "smooth driver" tag.

Edited by cheapracer, 07 May 2011 - 03:26.

[cheapracer]

K.Bartlett in the wet at Bathurst in the big Chev.

Do the forum a favour please and link Glen Seton Nissan RB30 incar in the wet at Bathurst going down Conrod stright, it is one of the most ass cheek tightning moments in motorsports history on video IMO. For him to continue after that in those conditions in that POS deserves the tag "fearless". (I can't get Youtube sorry).

Might be one of these http://www.google.co...w...sa=N&tab=wv

Didn't he drive one of them upside down at one stage (at Bathurst even)?

Thats harsh

Edited by cheapracer, 07 May 2011 - 03:33.

[Lola5000]

Do the forum a favour please and link Glen Seton Nissan RB30 incar in the wet at Bathurst going down Conrod stright, it is one of the most ass cheek tightning moments in motorsports history on video IMO. For him to continue after that in those conditions in that POS deserves the tag "fearless". (I can't get Youtube sorry).

Might be one of these http://www.google.co...w...sa=N&tab=wv



Thats harsh

That was a fearless drive.

[Paul Hurdsfield]

As others have said earlier, Purley and Hailwood spring to mind.

Edited by Paul Hurdsfield, 07 May 2011 - 06:59.

[Jesper O. Hansen]

Dale Earnhardt senior and Ayrton Senna comes to mind as "fearless" drivers. They were hard racers, who used the tricks of the book and those they invented along, but I have a sence that both of them knew they were great at handling a racecar at speed and thus pushed the envelope a bit further. Jeff Gordon said that Earnhardt could "see" air at Talladega and Daytona - the restrictorplated tracks on the NASCAR circuit - and the tunnel vision of Senna at Monaco 1988, which finally brought him 1.427 seconds ahead of teammate Alain Prost during qualifying, are my defining points. Then, what about Carlos Sainz?

Gilles Villeneuve has been brought up; his son rates his own crashes.

Jesper

Edited by Jesper O. Hansen, 07 May 2011 - 07:33.

[Eric Dunsdon]

An unlikely candidate perhaps, but Jack Fairman was actually known as 'Fearless Jack' after his drive in the 1957 'Two Worlds' race at Monza in which he was classified 4th with an Ecurie Eccosse D Type Jaguar. .

[SJ Lambert]

Thats harsh

Don't get me wrong, KB is allright! He is about the only driver who's autograph I sought out as as a teenager, and it just so happens that he's also the only driver still alive who had a pedal of our Elfin 300 in period!!

Not to mention his Gold Stars and from the footage I've seen of him driving open wheelers around Bathurst he'd have qualified for overalls with extra ball room any time!!

Edited by SJ Lambert, 07 May 2011 - 12:27.

[arttidesco]

Gilles Villeneuve defined fearless in my book though I remember several thought he was wreckless.

Another not so popular driver who earned his fearless cojones reputation was Mansell blowing his 3 time champ team mate into the weeds at Brands in 1985 and Silverstone in 1986 was one thing but that move he pulled on Senna in 1992 in Barcelona was priceless IMHO :-)

Edited by arttidesco, 07 May 2011 - 08:23.

[pilota]

Srefan Bellof? Pedro Rodriguez?
Definitely Gilles! Not just on the track - also on the road (according to Scheckter) and in his helicopter.
Nathan

Edited by pilota, 07 May 2011 - 08:54.

[Sharman]

Gilles Villeneuve defined fearless in my book though I remember several thought he was wreckless.

Another not so popular driver who earned his fearless cojones reputation was Mansell blowing his 3 time champ team mate into the weeds at Brands in 1985 and Silverstone in 1986 was one thing but that move he pulled on Senna in 1992 in Barcelona was priceless IMHO :-)

Definitely not wreckless but I will allow reckless

[brucemoxon]

Didn't he drive one of them upside down at one stage (at Bathurst even)?

All the wonderful things Kevin did, and that's what folks remember? That makes me sad. I suspect he feels a bit the same; word is that mention of the 'Channel Six' Camaro (he was actually sponsored by Channel Nine) can bring about a failure of his sense of humour.

Fearless? Let me add my vote to Colin McRae. Aussie rally driver Ross Dunkerton might also be called fearless. I remember with fondness Ross's man-handling of a recalcitrant and overweight VR4 at Perth in 1990.






Bruce Moxon

[hogstar]

Two words - Keke Rosberg.

[Bauble]

To be honest I think we are all talking 'brave', 'fearless' rather than plain crazy.

Off hand I cannot recall anyone I would label as such, but they must have existed, or even exist.

Any takers?

NB; I know a lot of passengers who have considerd me pretty crazy.

[indybail]

Indianapolis' Jim Hurtubise come to mind. Herk was cars around the oval at speeds that make others pale. On the outside of his garage in gasoline alley, he hung a huge pair of brass balls. When someone asked him what they were for he replied, "I strap them on when it's time to qualify."

After his horrendous fiery crash at Milwuakee in 1964 he had the his doctors permanently fuse his burned hands into a position that he hold a steering wheel and and continue to race. Not only did he continue to compete at Indianapolis, he won a Nascar Cup race at Atlanta in 1966.

[indybail]

Ex motorcycle champions like Nuvolari, Behra and Surtees must have regarded most of the other drivers as sissies.

Masten Gregory was fairly fearless.

Don't forget Mike Hailwood.

[Amphicar]

To be honest I think we are all talking 'brave', 'fearless' rather than plain crazy.

Off hand I cannot recall anyone I would label as such, but they must have existed, or even exist.

Any takers?

NB; I know a lot of passengers who have considerd me pretty crazy.

If plumb crazy is the criterion, I nominate the Brambilla brothers.

[rallen]

I know everyone seems to hate him now but Nigel Mansell....

[rallen]

Also I would put Graham Hill in there no question! esp after pitting because he was soaked in fuel, stripping of Surtees overalls and going straight out again!

[grimeheel]

Not my favorite driver, but I have to add Andrea de Cesaris (aka de Crasheris).

[Duc-Man]

No names, just in general: everybody who drove any kind of racecar before WWII was fearless compared to today.
Imagine doing almost 150mph on the Nürburgring with a Mercedes SSKL in the early 30's...with mechanical brakes. Not talking about the tires!

Fearless, brave or crazy is very much a matter of perspective.

[kayemod]

Also I would put Graham Hill in there no question! esp after pitting because he was soaked in fuel, stripping of Surtees overalls and going straight out again!

You're right, but that wasn't fearlessness, that was bravery. One of the bravest men I've known was Denny Hulme, after Bruce McLaren died in 1970, Denny held the team together by continuing to drive with hands so badly burned from a methanol fire at Indianapolis, that I turned away the first time I saw them, they were just scar tissue, I just couldn't look. Almost any other driver would have taken the rest of the season off, but Denny drove an almost full season in F1 and CanAm, though he suffered quite dreadfully in the first months. If he'd done something like that in wartime, a grateful country would have given him a medal, just as they did to Denny's father, Clive Hulme VC, so like father like son. I'm not going to single anyone out, but in my opinion, some who have been mentioned in this thread were only regarded as being fearless because they drove closer to the edge than some others, they had to in attempting to beat drivers who they couldn't quite match for talent. Has the word fearless ever been applied to the likes of Alain Prost, Fangio or Sir Stirling? I suspect all would have been quite offended if it was, they knew their limits, and they almost always drove within them, still managing to beat almost everyone they came up against.

[ensign14]

Jimmy Caruthers.

[kayemod]

Jimmy Caruthers.

Undoubtedly, when he won the 1975 USAC Silver Crown Series championship, Jimmy was suffering from terminal cancer. He finished third at the Hoosier 100 a few weeks before he died, clinching the championship. He succumbed just over one month later, not living long enough to be presented with his championship trophy.

[Tom Glowacki]

Undoubtedly, when he won the 1975 USAC Silver Crown Series championship, Jimmy was suffering from terminal cancer. He finished third at the Hoosier 100 a few weeks before he died, clinching the championship. He succumbed just over one month later, not living long enough to be presented with his championship trophy.

You have to admire his spirit, he's famous for explaining his success by saying, "No one out-brakes a cancer patient."

[ensign14]

Add to that setting his fastest ever laps around the Brickyard minutes after seeing his team-mate Art Pollard killed, and continuing to race after brother Danny's death.

Life's so bloody unfair at times.

[Michael Ferner]

Not from my own experience seeing them race, but I'd like to nominate Sprint Car drivers Doc MacKenzie and Mike Nazaruk. Also, both Mauri Rose and Troy Ruttman jumped out of burning cars in the pits at Indy, waited for the flames to die down and then jumped right back in - wearing T-shirts!!! Then take a minute and consider riding mechanics on those insanely fast board tracks of the teens and twenties: having no input in your own fate for two or three hours, while a speed crazy nutcase beside you is hunting for gold and glory - the ultimate definition of "fearless"???