170 replies to this topic

[Chezrome]

I'm originally from Amsterdam,the Netherlands, the most bike-infested and most dangerous bike-city in the world (except Peking, perhaps). Almost no-one wears a helmet there. But I think that will have to change, if I see my daughter. She has the same built I had as a child, but while in my youth I tumbled of bikes, skateboards, downhill-karts and never broke as much as thumb, my daughter (and many kids of her age) broke her arm, had a concussion, shinsplints etc from minor falls.

My point: I think a lot of younger people today don't know how to fall anymore, hence they are more a danger to themselves during biking.

And about fearless: the bikers in Amsterdam are for the most death-defiant. Red lights? Pah. Red lights, Red smights!

[seccotine]

That conversation is insane. Never saw that on that forum before.
What frustrations are you sharing through this silly argument?

[thatguy0101]

That conversation is insane. Never saw that on that forum before.
What frustrations are you sharing through this silly argument?

Personally, I think it went to Bizarro World when someone said George Follmer was more a real racer than Parnelli Jones. Maybe that's when my mind snapped. I'm not sure. All I know is I saw sky, and earth, and sky, and earth....

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something like: Y'know, Parnelli was a pansy. Just didn't really want to be a racer when push came to shove. Give me George Follmer beating up on two good cars and a bunch of stockbrokers. That's a racer. That's racing.

Edited by thatguy0101, 14 May 2011 - 10:48.

[Flat Black 84]

Not that common - because most people have the sense to wear a helmet. Over time, natural selection will take care of the rest.

Thank you for sidestepping the question. I'll continue to view bicycling helmets in the same category as I do the scare over genetically modified food and minute-particulate second hand smoke.

[Flat Black 84]

If you actually think it's more dangerous to race a bicycle than to ride one on city streets, then you've evidently done neither.

Actually I've done both. And I'm still awaiting concrete evidence rather than your sweeping, unchallengeable assertion. I suspect that is because assertion and opinion are all you've got.

[Flat Black 84]

Just to show you all that I can flog a dead horse with the best of them:

According to the Chief Coroner of the Province of Ontario, 38 cyclists died in Toronto as a result of accidents with cars between 1986 and 1998. Of these, 55% died of head injuries, 37% of multiple injuries, and 8% from "other causes".

This figure is incomplete, of course, since it only looks at deaths resulting from collisions with motor vehicles. And the other thing it doesn't report is people who suffer head injuries but survive - like a friend of mine who was in a coma for months.

Yeah, I know, I'm getting tiresome, and this is way OT... but I know from experience that head injuries do happen to cyclists, and the results can be brutally tragic, and most of them can be avoided so easily, without interfering with anyone's freedom or enjoyment. Cycling without a helmet is just dumb, dumb, dumb. And while everyone has a right to be dumb, to then ridicule people who aren't being dumb steps over the line from stupid to irresponsible.

Well, at least you've tried. What you can't do, I suspect, is tell me how many serious head injuries occur per bicycling hour. One per thousand hours? One per million? Again, when you consider the number of people who bike on a given day and their total time in the seat, and then tally up the serious head injuries, I strongly suspect you'd be shocked at how rare these accidents are. If you--or anybody else--can prove otherwise, I'll change my mind. Failing that, you continue to imagine you are engaging in some deadly adventure when you get on your bikey, and I'll continue to laugh.

[Michael Ferner]

QUOTE
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember saying something like: Y'know, Parnelli was a pansy. Just didn't really want to be a racer when push came to shove. Give me George Follmer beating up on two good cars and a bunch of stockbrokers. That's a racer. That's racing.


Did I say that? Or just think it? Was I talking? Did they hear me...???

[PCC]

Failing that, you continue to imagine you are engaging in some deadly adventure when you get on your bikey, and I'll continue to laugh.

Okay.

[D-Type]

I don't have any reason to suggest that cyclists should not wear helmets, but why do commuters on upright bikes and riding at about 10 mph wear streamlined racing helmets?

And to return to a motor racing theme; was it Jean-Pierre Wimille who wore a lightweight cyclists' helmet when crash helmets became compulsory?

Back on topis: does "fearless" mean the same as "brave", "foolhardy", "lacking in imagination"?

Brave as in getting in a car and racing even when it means overcoming your fear - eg James Hunt
Foolhardy as in "trying to overtake there and "lacking in imagination" - I can think of a couple of examples but I think I'll not name them

When this thread started, the name that leapt into my mind was Gilles Villeneuve. I think that rather than overcoming fear he simply didn't experience it. he seemed to let his experience allow him to dismis it. Racing snowmobiles meant he knew he could handle lack of visibility and lack of grip so neither worried him, or if you like he no longer feared them. Likewise, once he had broken a bone the thought no longer bothered him.

Other candidates include Nuvolari, but how much of his reputation can be put down to the style of journalism in his time in his country.

In a different way David Purley, Arturo Merzario and others who went into the fire to extricate a driver also qualify as fearless.

[Flat Black 84]

Merging helmets with auto racing bravery, I recently read that American racing helmets in the early/mid-50s were made of compressed cardboard. Bloody hell. Whether it be the high hills are far more sedate circuits, it took two-ton balls to race the midgets, sprints and big cars of that era with nothing more than cardboard and borax for protection. And prior to 1959, not so much as a roll-bar either.

[seccotine]

- J'y trouve un goût de pomme..."
- "Y'en a!"

[Bob Riebe]

My point: I think a lot of younger people today don't know how to fall anymore, hence they are more a danger to themselves during biking.

Nothing but gut instinct but damn, I think you are dead-on with that statement.

I do not know why, my friends and I did very dangerous things, because we could, as youts into our young adulthood, and no one ever broke anything. Nasty cuts and scrapes for sure, but that is all.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 15 May 2011 - 05:25.

[Bob Riebe]

, to then ridicule people who aren't being dumb steps over the line from stupid to irresponsible.

I agree, but so is the opposite.

[fuzzi]

You're telling us that you actually believe what Neubauer wrote in his book...?

Surely it's been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the primary cause of Rosemeyer's crash was a sheet metal fairing between the wheels coming adrift in the slipsteam, causing the car to lift.

Can you tell me where the proof lies in this case?

According to Chris Nixon in "Racing the Silver Arrows" Prof Eberan Eberhorst rejected the claim that the bodywork had been destroyed by the wind rather that, ".. a strong gust of wind had blown the car off track and moved the car onto the grass strip between the carriageways before Rosemeyer's instantaneous correction had brought the car back onto the track. The correction, however had clearly been too much, for tyre marks on the concrete shoed where the car had skidded as Rosemeyer lost control and the Auto Union had launched itself onto the wooded banking beside the autobahn."

Eberhorst was so angered by the accusations that the bodywork had failed that he had another car built to the exact specification and then photographed by the press at the same oblique angle in similar cloudy conditions to a shot of the original car, which gave the same impression of dents on the highly polished flat aluminium.

Edited by fuzzi, 15 May 2011 - 08:44.

[Tim Murray]

Have you read the Aldo Zana document that I linked to in post 88? It's not proof, I agree, but Aldo's theory based on the available evidence is very compelling. As I mentioned, it also shows that the car started to skid before it reached the Morfelden clearing where it would have encountered the gust of wind.

[fuzzi]

Tim, Many thanks for the link to the document, which makes chilling reading.

The conclusions drawn seem to be the only ones possible.

[Michael Ferner]

This exchange on the advisability of today's cyclists donning head protection before venturing outside, is actually more entertaining than was most of the earlier discussion on 'Fearless Drivers'.

Getting back to the entertaining part, today I just did it. Many, many times when a car drives by me inches away, I think about hitting or kicking it, but always I'm too startled to react quickly enough. Just a few minutes ago, while riding back from work, I was on the ball. The car went by so close, I just thought "You bloody idiot" and ** bang ** hit its roof while it sped past. The driver just slowed, checked his mirror in puzzlement, and drove on. Heck, I don't even think he understood what he did. I don't know what they learn in driving schools these days, but it's certainly not conducting a car. I almost caught the car again at the next roundabout and would have happily continued the pounding, but sadly the road went uphill, and I just failed. That's another gripe I have with car drivers, they think they are alone on the streets. How often do I get overtaken just before a roundabout, and then blocked from entering by these lumbersome vehicles with their dumb "conductors".

And then I get told on this forum to ride more cautiously, and I wouldn't need to wear a helmut! Oh yeah, just another car "driver", blubbering through his nose...

[kayemod]

And then I get told on this forum to ride more cautiously, and I wouldn't need to wear a helmut!

Would that be a Kohl Helmut by any chance ?

[PCC]

Just a few minutes ago, while riding back from work, I was on the ball. The car went by so close, I just thought "You bloody idiot" and ** bang ** hit its roof while it sped past.

Bravo! I can't tell you how many times I've wished I'd done the same thing!

And Kayemod, I doubt it was Kohl Helmut - Michael's a racer at heart, so it was probably a Berger Helmut...

[Jim Thurman]

How about a Kelleners Helmut?

Getting back to something I wanted to mention earlier, REDARMYSOJA, I figured you were aware of Ron Hughes Jr. and realize that after I'd worded it

And, FB, don't be so sure about today's drivers. This past week, Tomas Scheckter drove Ken Schrader's modified at speed around a very dry, dusty Indiana State Fairgrounds mile and was practically hyperventilating when he got out. He said he loved it and wants to do more.

[Flat Black 84]

I've always like Tomas. His old man, too.