1175 replies to this topic

[JamesRaynor]

Apologies if the Mods decide to merge or delete this thread, but in the old Poll/Thread on Vettel vs Hamilton & Alonso, the only options were Vettel being in the same class or not the same class, and there wasn't an option for Vettel actually being in a class of his own in respect of Hamilton & Alonso.

There was also the possibility that some people who voted that Vettel wasn't in Hamilton and Alonso's class did so because they actually thought Vettel was clearly better than both of them.

With these poll options, that matter should become quite clear.

[Atreiu]

Newey's cars have been clearly ahead of all others since mid 2009.
I can't be sure about Vettel, but I don't think he would prevail in a 2006 like title battle with Alonso or a 2008 like battle with Hamilton in comprable machinery and all.
But he is clearly, or has been been for quite a while, better than Webber.

[FlashMaster]

Race pace equal to Alonso, Qualy equal to Hamilton

[nbhb]

Where is "Vettel is a tiny step below/above Hamilton & Alonso" option?

[JamesRaynor]

Where is "Vettel is a tiny step below/above Hamilton & Alonso" option?

I didn't want to make 5 options as really, if one thinks Vettel is only a tiny step better or worse, a bit of self-doubt should direct one to go for "Vettel is at the same level as Hamilton and Alonso".

Mind you I don't think Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level, so . . . .

[joshb]

Where is "Vettel is a tiny step below/above Hamilton & Alonso" option?

same here. i wouldn't put in a mile behind the other 2 but then neither would i quite say hes on a par with them. But i'd say he's mich closer than being on a par than miles behind them.

[gillymuse]

I honestly don't know.

[abc02]

Honestly, on current form I think Vettel is the best right now. Since his horror show in Spa last year he's been more consistent than Lewis or Alonso.

[nbhb]

I didn't want to make 5 options as really, if one thinks Vettel is only a tiny step better or worse, a bit of self-doubt should direct one to go for "Vettel is at the same level as Hamilton and Alonso".

Mind you I don't think Hamilton and Alonso are at the same level, so . . . .

They are 1 level above?

[naiku]

I honestly don't know.

Same here, is he good, yes, but so far he has only really been good when putting the car on pole. Which is obviously something he is very good at, but then again he clearly has the best car out there. I believe Alonso / Hamilton could both put the Red Bull on pole multiple times should they happen to be driving it.

[Ferrari2183]

Not going to vote but right now Vettel is driving as well as anybody. He is giving his team-mate a thorough drubbing at present.

[Lights]

How can you know? No point to vote on this.

[velgajski1]

Dont we have enough of these threads?

[SK99]

In an era of minimal tyre degradation I think Hamilton is in his own class.

In an era of more delicate management on the events of so far I think Vettel is the better of the 3, great car or not it is a very complex thing to best exploit the tyres and he has done it time and time again so far - but I have the feeling that if Alonso were in that car he would do a similar job over the lap and race, question is whether slightly better or worse, and for me Hamilton is a shade behind both - however he is still in the adjustment phase the most IMO and I put money on it by the end of this season he will be able to match them, so I would put Hamilton as the clear best driver in F1 if he does so.

Edited by SK99, 10 May 2011 - 15:02.

[nbhb]

Didn't Hamilton said that Vettel is his Mansell who was no better than Prost aka Alonso or Senna aka Hamilton. So there it is...

Edited by nbhb, 10 May 2011 - 15:05.

[Stormsky68]

Very difficult to compare Vettel as the RB car has been head and shoulders above the Mclaren and Ferrari over the last 18 months, half the drivers on the grid would be comprehensively winning GP's in it

It's more interesting and realistic to compare Hamilton and Alonso 's relative performances as their cars have been much closer over the same period

Edited by Stormsky68, 10 May 2011 - 15:15.

[Group B]

I'm inclined to suggest the mods close the old thread and we can all press on with this one. The new poll is both more up to date with opinions and has better options.

[Kelateboy]

And the fact that the poll is opened after Vettel's thumping Turkish win means that more people will vote Vettel is in the same class as Hamilton/Alonso...

[Group B]

This is undoubtedly true, a fickleness factor I pointed out in the last thread. But on the whole the extra option and extra few months of evidence for all three should make it a bit more accurate.

[Disgrace]

He's not as good... yet, but has shown that he could be. Won't bother explaining and will not visit this flame thread again.

[Kohque]

Vettel must be up there with them, a bit below or a bit above in speed. Using my own yardstick (quite a simple one), the driver performing better so far this year is Vettel, followed by Alonso and then Hamilton. Some people will say they have different cars, Vettel is driving in front and all that, but that's motorsports. You have to perform well in every situation and Vettel is doing a great job bringing that car from pole to the finish line. As long as that is the case I don't see any reason to rate him lower than either Alonso or Hamilton. For me, he is doing better than both so far, but we'll see, there is still a long championship ahead

BTW, a bit off topic, but I have only seen Alonso once showing a good deal of respect for a driver, and that was Raikkonen. I don't know what happened to him in Ferrari, but I think we may have been discussing about four drivers, not three, if he hadn't left.

[GPmaster]

I agree with Eddie Jordan who said last sunday that Vettel is outstanding from pole, but he got his moments when he need to race and overtake. From pole he is fantastic, but with real racing i'm not so sure if he is on the same level.

[Raziel]

I agree with Eddie Jordan who said last sunday that Vettel is outstanding from pole, but he got his moments when he need to race and overtake. From pole he is fantastic, but with real racing i'm not so sure if he is on the same level.

I agree. Both Alonso and Hamilton proved that they are outstanding drivers/racers in car that is not rocketship, Vettel on the other hand, well, we have to wait and see. Time will tell

[P123]

I agree. Both Alonso and Hamilton proved that they are outstanding drivers/racers in car that is not rocketship, Vettel on the other hand, well, we have to wait and see. Time will tell

Didn't Vettel prove that in the Toro Rosso?

Anyway, I look forward to both McLaren and Ferrari closing the gap to the Redd Bull in Spain, then we can have a real heated fight for victories in the coming races.

[ImDDAA]

Vettel looked good in the other cars he's driven in F1, but not out of this world. However, there is nothing you can currently fault him for - yes he has the best car, but what is he doing with it? Consistently putting in near perfect performances, out qualifying and out racing his team mate on a race by race basis. I don't rate him as the great racers Alonso and Hamilton are, not because I'm sure that he isn't but simply because I haven't seen him prove himself there yet. That's no slight against him, just a fact - at the moment he is doing nothing wrong and there can be no criticism of his driving so far in 2011.

Edited by ImDDAA, 10 May 2011 - 18:34.

[KnucklesAgain]

Vettel looked good in the other cars he's driven in F1, but not out of this world. However, there is nothing you can currently fault him for - yes he has the best car, but what is he doing with it? Consistently putting in near perfect performances, out qualifying and out racing his team mate on a race by race basis. I don't rate him as the great racers Alonso and Hamilton are, not because I'm sure that he isn't but simply because I haven't seen him prove himself there yet. That's no slight against him, just a fact - at the moment he is doing nothing wrong and there can be no criticism of his driving so far in 2011.

End of.

[Birelman]

IMHO, as a complete driver, talentwise he is at or around their level. The commitment, and precision this kid carries through a qualifying lap is amazing, scary, and thrilling at the same time, reminds me a lot of Ayrton Senna. Though Hamilton's will and determination is more Sennalike than Vettel which has a very different attitude.

These 3 drivers have their traits, and weaknesses, but, they are a step above the rest of the current crop. Of course, we have yet to see what some other young ones that just entered can do with a few more GPs under their belt.

Whatever you think his weakness is, it must be considered that all drivers have their weaknesses, no driver is perfect. Prost had his weaknesses, and Senna had his as well, and both exploited the heck out of the other. And this new crop is no different, they all have their weaknesses, and we'll see them work through those. Of course, of these 3, Alonso is the one closest to his decline in a few years, so, I think we're seeing him in his prime, we have yet to see what the young ones can do in 5, 7 years time, remember how young these kids are, if they have Schumacher length type careers it'll be insane!

Edited by Birelman, 10 May 2011 - 18:46.

[Concorde]

I think Vettel is on his way to join Alonso in the 2 WDC category this year leaving Hamilton in his or their dust.

[Muppetmad]

The commitment, and precision this kid carries through a qualifying lap is amazing, scary, and thrilling at the same time, reminds me a lot of Ayrton Senna.

I look forward to seeing Vettel's qualifying lap at Monaco this year, because sadly last year I don't feel he extracted the most from the car - heck, I don't think Webber did either to be quite honest. If he continues in the form he is in at the moment, I feel it could be quite a special lap - no qualifying lap is quite like Monaco I think, and Kubica's lap last year took my breath away completely.

[McLarenNo1]

Newey's cars have been clearly ahead of all others since mid 2009.
I can't be sure about Vettel, but I don't think he would prevail in a 2006 like title battle with Alonso or a 2008 like battle with Hamilton in comprable machinery and all.
But he is clearly, or has been been for quite a while, better than Webber.

He has already proven that he couldn't in 2009 but he was young I suppose.

In an era of minimal tyre degradation I think Hamilton is in his own class.

In an era of more delicate management on the events of so far I think Vettel is the better of the 3, great car or not it is a very complex thing to best exploit the tyres and he has done it time and time again so far - but I have the feeling that if Alonso were in that car he would do a similar job over the lap and race, question is whether slightly better or worse, and for me Hamilton is a shade behind both - however he is still in the adjustment phase the most IMO and I put money on it by the end of this season he will be able to match them, so I would put Hamilton as the clear best driver in F1 if he does so.

I don't see how Hamilton is behind. Did you not see Chinese GP, only person to beat Vettel in a car clearly slower. He is still beating his team mate that many think is the master of delicacy and also he is beating Vettel's team mate. I don't think he needs to catch up over the course of the season as Hamilton has shown he is very good in adjusting to situations and exceeding any of his team mates which also included Alonso.

Vettel must be up there with them, a bit below or a bit above in speed. Using my own yardstick (quite a simple one), the driver performing better so far this year is Vettel, followed by Alonso and then Hamilton. Some people will say they have different cars, Vettel is driving in front and all that, but that's motorsports. You have to perform well in every situation and Vettel is doing a great job bringing that car from pole to the finish line. As long as that is the case I don't see any reason to rate him lower than either Alonso or Hamilton. For me, he is doing better than both so far, but we'll see, there is still a long championship ahead

BTW, a bit off topic, but I have only seen Alonso once showing a good deal of respect for a driver, and that was Raikkonen. I don't know what happened to him in Ferrari, but I think we may have been discussing about four drivers, not three, if he hadn't left.

I don't get how Alonso is ahead of Hamilton so far this season. Hamilton is 2nd in the championship, the only person to beat Vettel once in a race and has also the beating of Webber in qualifying and more points from races than Webber. Is it because Alonso got a podium after two races finishing behind Massa and people seem to remember only the last race to use as a yardstick?

Didn't Vettel prove that in the Toro Rosso?

Anyway, I look forward to both McLaren and Ferrari closing the gap to the Redd Bull in Spain, then we can have a real heated fight for victories in the coming races.

He didn't prove it in 2009 where his car was at least the equal of the Brawn over the whole season.

IMHO, as a complete driver, talentwise he is at or around their level. The commitment, and precision this kid carries through a qualifying lap is amazing, scary, and thrilling at the same time, reminds me a lot of Ayrton Senna. Though Hamilton's will and determination is more Sennalike than Vettel which has a very different attitude.

These 3 drivers have their traits, and weaknesses, but, they are a step above the rest of the current crop. Of course, we have yet to see what some other young ones that just entered can do with a few more GPs under their belt.

Whatever you think his weakness is, it must be considered that all drivers have their weaknesses, no driver is perfect. Prost had his weaknesses, and Senna had his as well, and both exploited the heck out of the other. And this new crop is no different, they all have their weaknesses, and we'll see them work through those. Of course, of these 3, Alonso is the one closest to his decline in a few years, so, I think we're seeing him in his prime, we have yet to see what the young ones can do in 5, 7 years time, remember how young these kids are, if they have Schumacher length type careers it'll be insane!

Senna was amazing because of his commitment and precision in a car with very little downforce but with a lot of power. He added so much performance to the car that he could get pole in his era with pretty much anything that could be slower by a second driven by a decent driver. He made the car make the corner, in Vettel's case he has a car that is described as being like it is on rails and very easy to drive. Obviously he has to make use of the superior downforce, otherwise he would not be qualifying on pole or ahead of many people if he had not the same commitment. His commitment on the DRS is quite impressive although the car factor again plays highly but I don't think Webber is on it as early. Vettel obviously is brimming in confidence in the car but just driving the car close to its limits. I'm sure Vettel could have probably knocked another two tenths of his qualfying time in Istanbul with another run. It is harder for drivers to stand out as much as Senna due to downforce being so great now as the commitment is expected.

I think Vettel is on his way to join Alonso in the 2 WDC category this year leaving Hamilton in his or their dust.

I think it all depends on what Red Bull have in terms of development scope. If they have a upgrade in the pipeline that is going to give them an extra second then Vettel most likely win the title but I can see Webber getting back up to scratch and challenging him in qualifying and if not in the race. Next race will be interesting to see if McLaren have closed the gap with the upgrades they have planned for that race. Mercedes might be on / near the Red Bull pace as they have I think a big update coming on the car / that is if it works and Red Bull don't heavily improve.

Edited by McLarenNo1, 10 May 2011 - 20:28.

[Smile17]

I'm not sure. The only thing I'm very sure of is the fact that Vettel's car is miles ahead of the competition. So it's hard to compare. To be honest, I think he might be as good as Hamilton or maybe even a bit better, considering his age.

Edited by Smile17, 10 May 2011 - 20:30.

[Ellios]

I think Vettel is on his way to join Alonso in the 2 WDC category this year leaving Hamilton in his or their dust.

I agree Vettel will be double world champion this year maybe by Korea or India - the car is outstanding and he drives beautifully with minimal fuss and makes very few mistakes (if any so far this year)

Hamilton is easily good enough to be a double world champion, but really McLaren haven't provided a car worthy of two decent years back to back as Red Bull have done

if there is to be a fight back from McLaren it needs to begin now

Alonso is a true champion, love him or loathe him - he is your archetypal F1 world champion, and absolutely will not stop trying to win

[DILLIGAF]

Seb is at the same level. A class act.

[Concorde]

I agree Vettel will be double world champion this year maybe by Korea or India - the car is outstanding and he drives beautifully with minimal fuss and makes very few mistakes (if any so far this year)

Hamilton is easily good enough to be a double world champion, but really McLaren haven't provided a car worthy of two decent years back to back as Red Bull have done

if there is to be a fight back from McLaren it needs to begin now

Alonso is a true champion, love him or loathe him - he is your archetypal F1 world champion, and absolutely will not stop trying to win

I think we more or less agree Ellios.

There's nothing to take away from Vettel he's inch perfect this year so far.
Hamilton is a good and spectacular driver but I'm afraid his erratic nature and error proneness will cost him, as will his liaison with Mclaren.
Alonso is the true thing I agree but he's not getting any younger, he needs to sew up 1 or 2 championships before 2014 to mark his greatness.

[rhukkas]

Only Hamilton and Alonso have had proper decent team mates. Vettel really hasn't been challenged so it's hard to calculate. Though he did come veryyyy close to losing to Mark Webber last year.

[PNSD]

We still havent seen Vettel fight for a win the way Lewis and Alonso can. Then again, he's been good enough not to have to.

Still, I rate both Lewis and Alonso a class ahead of Vettel in terms of performance over a season.

Over one lap, i think Vettel has even Lewis pegged, but over a season I still think Alonso and Lewis both would come out on top. Then again, he seems to have the Schumacher ability of staying out in front, and if that's the case then who cares about his ability to come through a pack? Unless RBR build a dud car it's unimportant.

[rhukkas]

We still havent seen Vettel fight for a win the way Lewis and Alonso can. Then again, he's been good enough not to have to.

Still, I rate both Lewis and Alonso a class ahead of Vettel in terms of performance over a season.

Over one lap, i think Vettel has even Lewis pegged, but over a season I still think Alonso and Lewis both would come out on top. Then again, he seems to have the Schumacher ability of staying out in front, and if that's the case then who cares about his ability to come through a pack? Unless RBR build a dud car it's unimportant.

I am not sure how you can qualify this statement. At the start of 2009 Button had Vettel 'pegged'. Vettel has the best car on the grid.

comparing drivers in different cars is really impossible. In terms of beating top class drivers in the same car only 1 driver out of the three suggested has beaten the reigning world champion... in the same car.

[PNSD]

I am not sure how you can qualify this statement. At the start of 2009 Button had Vettel 'pegged'. Vettel has the best car on the grid.

comparing drivers in different cars is really impossible. In terms of beating top class drivers in the same car only 1 driver out of the three suggested has beaten the reigning world champion... in the same car.

Vettel has pretty much destroyed Webber over one lap, a guy we thought was a qualifying hero.

Vettel has done more sensational laps than I can remember Lewis doing when he had top machinery... As I said in a race I would put Lewis ahead but Vettel seems to be able to get the most from a car, even if it is the best car. His pole laps at Australia this year, and last year were something else to watch.

[SK99]

I am not sure how you can qualify this statement. At the start of 2009 Button had Vettel 'pegged'. Vettel has the best car on the grid.

comparing drivers in different cars is really impossible. In terms of beating top class drivers in the same car only 1 driver out of the three suggested has beaten the reigning world champion... in the same car.

When Alonso wasn't at the top of his game - he was psycholigically all over the place.

You put Alonso in a car of the same quality as Hamilton in this type of era but working with a different employer where he is in his most comfortable position of being the leader and you have an entirely different season.

Edited by SK99, 10 May 2011 - 22:37.

[Concorde]

Vettel has done more sensational laps than I can remember Lewis doing when he had top machinery... As I said in a race I would put Lewis ahead but Vettel seems to be able to get the most from a car, even if it is the best car. His pole laps at Australia this year, and last year were something else to watch.

[pingu666]

his qualy form is amazing, hes probably doing the best q3 laps.
in the races hes been as good as he needs tobe

[Seanspeed]

Though he did come veryyyy close to losing to Mark Webber last year.

In points, maybe. But if you looked at their performances, Vettel still had the beating of Webber pretty clearly. I'm saying this as a Webber fan, as well.

Vettel had quite a bit of bad luck that Webber didn't throughout the season, and much of Vettel's bad luck happened to occur when he was leading a race. This skewed the importance of using the points system as a reliable indicator of relative importance. Webber experienced something similar in 2007 when he thoroughly trashed Coulthard pretty much everywhere, yet Coulthard came out ahead on points still because of Webber's bad luck when running in good points positions.

Just like the last thread, I refuse to actually cast a vote, cuz I dont know and I feel the options are too absolute and lack the 'degree' variation that I'd look for(define a step?). I'd be very surprised to find out that either Lewis or Alonso were that much better than him, though.

[McLarenNo1]

We still havent seen Vettel fight for a win the way Lewis and Alonso can. Then again, he's been good enough not to have to.

Still, I rate both Lewis and Alonso a class ahead of Vettel in terms of performance over a season.

Over one lap, i think Vettel has even Lewis pegged, but over a season I still think Alonso and Lewis both would come out on top. Then again, he seems to have the Schumacher ability of staying out in front, and if that's the case then who cares about his ability to come through a pack? Unless RBR build a dud car it's unimportant.

I think he has not been good enough to show it. He has still yet to win a race not leading into the first corner (Apart from Abu Dhabi 2009 where Lewis had a mechanical failure) and you can't say he didn't have the opportunities to in 2009 and 2010 to show that even with a dominant car for the most part.

Vettel has pretty much destroyed Webber over one lap, a guy we thought was a qualifying hero.

Vettel has done more sensational laps than I can remember Lewis doing when he had top machinery... As I said in a race I would put Lewis ahead but Vettel seems to be able to get the most from a car, even if it is the best car. His pole laps at Australia this year, and last year were something else to watch.

He only started doing that in his 3rd season as team mate with Webber. Hamilton has been doing this against World Champions (Alonso, Button) and beat Alonso, Heikki and Button in qualifying. Heikki like Mark is known as a fast qualifier but look how he destroyed him in 2008. Hamilton won the WDC while Heikki finshed 7th the biggest victory over a team mate for a WDC for at least a decade and they both got equal treatment that season. I think Lewis was doing sensational laps in 2008 Silverstone race. Also was Vettel making the most of his car in 2009 and 2010 in your eyes? Hamiltons pole on Montreal must of been something else to watch too. Don't forget Lewis is also beating Vettel's team mate over one lap this year, 3-1 in a slower car.

When Alonso wasn't at the top of his game - he was psycholigically all over the place.

You put Alonso in a car of the same quality as Hamilton in this type of era but working with a different employer where he is in his most comfortable position of being the leader and you have an entirely different season.

So being the defending double world champion is a case of Alonso not being at the top of his game. OK... Obviously Alonso will come out on top if he is put into the place of leader, Hamilton did it on merit, something Alonso could not live with especially him being the rookie and that destroyed Alonso mentally. I wonder what Briatore would have done, make Hamilton's car slower or force him to drive only behind Alonso. Alonso was playing catch-up to Hamilton in 2007 in the WDC. We have seen what happens when Alonso is leader such as crash-gate and team orders. Hamilton I like the most as he is a true racer, you won't see him going on the radio to tell his team to tell his team mate to move out the way or swerve towards the pit buildings showing his fists to get past. He gets past them such as on Button in China to go and win the race. No wonder why Frank Williams thinks he's got it more than others and is magic. It is clear to see he can make things happen on the track where others fail. He has dominated a driver who beat Vettel to the title winning the first 6 out of 7 races.

Edited by McLarenNo1, 10 May 2011 - 23:29.

[Totza]

Until Vettel can do what he is doing in a less superior car then we'll never know lol but he is driving great at the moment, but lets see how he does when Newey produces a dog (which i highly doubt will happen anytime soon)

[DILLIGAF]

Until Vettel can do what he is doing in a less superior car then we'll never know lol but he is driving great at the moment, but lets see how he does when Newey produces a dog (which i highly doubt will happen anytime soon)

Just out of interest, who exactly has done what Seb is doing now, but in a less superior car?

[McLarenNo1]

Just out of interest, who exactly has done what Seb is doing now, but in a less superior car?

Button has and the RB5 had taken until only the third race to take pole.

[DILLIGAF]

Button has and the RB5 had taken until only the third race to take pole.

That is funny. The Brawn wasn't a superior car early in '09....pfft!!

[McLarenNo1]

That is funny. The Brawn wasn't a superior car early in '09....pfft!!

You said less superior car and the Brawn was. it had already been out qualified by the third race, the RB7 has yet to plus the qualifying margins is bigger than what the Brawn car had over its rivals

[DILLIGAF]

You said less superior car and the Brawn was. it had already been out qualified by the third race, the RB7 has yet to plus the qualifying margins is bigger than what the Brawn car had over its rivals

Surely you know what i mean?

Let's try this from a different angle. When has Hamilton or Alonso done what Seb is doing now, but in a less superior car?

[Birelman]

You said less superior car and the Brawn was. it had already been out qualified by the third race, the RB7 has yet to plus the qualifying margins is bigger than what the Brawn car had over its rivals

lol is that how it's measured? Actually the RBR has been outqualified since the first race of the year, as Webber wasn't on Pole, or Off Pole, so, yea, the only RBR that hasn't been outqualified is Vettel's, that's only because Vettel extracts the maximum out of the car 99% of the time in qualifying, when you have the best car, and can consistently put the car where it's potential is, it's pretty difficult for anyone else to take advantage, not the case with Button, Button might be fairly quick, but not the quickest in F1, and he's never been one to extract the max in Qualifying as consistently race, after race either.