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2011 Indy 500


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#1451 Slyder

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 22:41

"the problem is that it requires a population that isn't selfish or greedy for it to actually work"

lol......so, basically, a population wihtout humans in it then.


Actually, more like the old Native American tribes whom blossomed without any need for currency.

There was civilization before the XX century ya know... :stoned:

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#1452 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 05:17

From Curt Cavin in the Indy Star:

If it seemed JR Hildebrand came upon fellow rookie Charlie Kimball quickly on the final lap of last weekend's Indianapolis 500, he did.

Track segment times released by the Izod IndyCar Series show that Hildebrand, who crashed trying to pass the lapped car, was traveling about 94 mph faster than Kimball in the north short chute of Indianapolis Motor Speedway and still 83 mph faster in turn four.

In giving Kimball room, Hildebrand's right-side tires got into the slippery higher groove, which pushed him into the wall. Dan Wheldon passed him 900 feet from the finish to win.

Documents show that Kimball, who was low on fuel and perhaps out altogether, was going only 103.634 mph in the timing sector from the short chute to turn four. Hildebrand's speed was 186.865 mph, and that included the area at which the accident started.

In the previous sector measured from turn three to the short chute, Hildebrand was clocked at 210.564 mph to Kimball's 116.440 mph.

Kimball had been slowing for some time. His speed on lap 198 (of 200) was 192.934 mph, and he was at 166.930 mph on lap 199.

Kimball's remarkably slow speed on the final lap raises questions about why he was on the track and not in the deceleration lane. Nearly the same thing happened in last year's race when Mike Conway crashed in turn three after running over the left rear tire of Ryan Hunter-Reay, who was running out of fuel.

Chief steward Brian Barnhart was not available for comment Friday.

There also have been questions regarding Hildebrand holding onto the lead after his crash.

Based on television replays, it took about eight seconds for officials to turn on the caution light.

Hildebrand, who kept pushing the gas pedal after the wall impact, needed 11.1 seconds to travel from the measuring point in turn four to the finish line. Wheldon got there in 7.3 seconds, a difference of 3.8 seconds.

The speed numbers show Wheldon reacted to the crash by slowing. He was 11.4 mph slower from the middle of the fourth turn to the finish line than he had been on the previous lap.

What's more pathetic is that JR crashed while doing 185 mph. That's 25 mph off the pace, and yet he still slid into the wall like he was driving on ice by merely driving on the outside line. The current Indy track is a joke, they really need to repave the aprons.

#1453 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 05:24

Roll your eyes all you want, they're not the same. Conway started slowing dramatically because he ran out of fuel. Hildebrand/Kimball had a continuous closing rate so JR could take avoiding action. He took too much action, but there you go.

It doesn't matter if the closing rate was continuous. When the closing rate is a continuous 80 mph, that's a very dangerous situation. All JR did was take the tightest possible outside lane, while being 25-30 mph off the pace, and yet he still lost all control of his car. In light of this additional information, I have to say that JR was extremely unlucky and does not deserve any blame. The fault lies primarily with the track which makes taking the outside lane at any speed a guaranteed DNF, and secondarily with the unlucky circumstance of a car at pace catching a car grossly off the pace at the entry to the corner.

#1454 Bob Riebe

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:09

It really wasn't close, JRH could have slowed to a speed just higher than "scraping along the wall" speed and still beaten Wheldon. Well, just like he almost did.

I imagine when you see someone that low on the track your initial thought must be that they are at speed but low on the track to enter the pits. But at nearly 90 mph faster you don't get much chance to change that assessment.

After Hildebrand crashed Wheldon, ALSO slowed down , which is one reason he did not pass him sooner.
Do people her actuall think Wehldon kept the peddle to the metal, crashing car be damned.
Good grief!


Edited by Bob Riebe, 05 June 2011 - 07:13.


#1455 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:32

Oh come on, there was enough time to get around Kimball. Wheldon wasn't that close.

#1456 Xpat

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:10

After Hildebrand crashed Wheldon, ALSO slowed down , which is one reason he did not pass him sooner.
Do people her actuall think Wehldon kept the peddle to the metal, crashing car be damned.
Good grief!


Well, he was going full speed through turn 4 and probably lifted some when he saw the crash. The point is however that if JRH had slowed considerably to get around Kimball, say to 150mph and then accelerated once past him he would have won easily. I assert this because he nearly won the race after hitting the wall and scraping along it for 1/4 of a mile.

I also imagine that Wheldon didn't slow as much as you would normally slow for a yellow flag because if he had, he might not have won.

#1457 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 12:48

Oh come on, there was enough time to get around Kimball. Wheldon wasn't that close.

At hat speed, Kimabll should have been on the apron, IIRC he was fully in the racing line, he didn't even have two wheels over the stripe.
Spilt milk anyway, the wudda cudda shudda on this could go on forever.

#1458 Lemnpiper

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 18:37

What's more pathetic is that JR crashed while doing 185 mph. That's 25 mph off the pace, and yet he still slid into the wall like he was driving on ice by merely driving on the outside line. The current Indy track is a joke, they really need to repave the aprons.




Hmmm,

(warning this post may not be well received )



1wonder if the bigger problem in fact is the cars are now and have been too fast for the speedway for at least 15 years.When folks make comments about repaving aprons ot other alterrations to the speedway itself i have to wonder.

I suspect the cars speed ability has made a start of 11 row 3 wide next to immpossible ever again. The 2 wide restarts we saw last sundey while exciting, were just one bad lane selection from taking out a bunch of the racers.

Most if not all of the cautions last sunday were for accidents not mechanical failures.


( BTW i do support the use of the SAFER walls )

It just seems to me the racing was better when the top speeds were in the 190 mph range as opposed to the laps they now turn at speeds up into the 223 speed ( within the race itself)). And the supposed new cars coming next year are supposed to have higher speed ability over this year's cars. And i exepct as a result you will see even more single file racing as the speeds go up , with the pit stops being even more important than they are now.

So an i off base thinking this?




paul



#1459 Flat Black 84

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 19:25

Seven cautions is not an inordinate amount for a 500-mile race. And I thought the racing was pretty good.

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#1460 ensign14

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 21:25

And, of course, he could easily have lost control had he dropped to Kimball's speed so quickly, and he most certainly would have surrendered the '500' to Wheldon.

He was only about 3 seconds behind Wheldon despite disintegrating across the line. I reckon he lost more than that time in crashing.

#1461 Red17

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 22:01

So it's another final lap accident related to the fuel thing again.

Has anything been done about the fuel rules since last year's accident? (I do not think so) Are the rule makers waiting for a really serious crash? Having cars running on fumes and creating that sort of problems on track is just asking for it.

#1462 Flat Black 84

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 22:54

He was only about 3 seconds behind Wheldon despite disintegrating across the line. I reckon he lost more than that time in crashing.


It would have been a close run thing. And if I'm a rookie about to pull one of the biggest upsets in the history of the Indy 500, I don't think I'm going to chance it.


#1463 Flat Black 84

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 22:56

So it's another final lap accident related to the fuel thing again.

Has anything been done about the fuel rules since last year's accident? (I do not think so) Are the rule makers waiting for a really serious crash? Having cars running on fumes and creating that sort of problems on track is just asking for it.


IMO, rules and regulations make for bad racing. Just look at F1. I think risk levels are entirely acceptable in IRL. The series does not need to be sanitized and neutered anymore than it already is.


#1464 Hippo

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 23:18

To me it looked like JRH lifted or even applied his brakes when he had to lap Kimball. I guess that is what caused the accident. When being close to the limit on a line like that you can't put additional lateral force on your car by doing this. It's a somewhat unique rule to oval racing. I kind of saw this coming when he entered the last turn with Kimball being much slower there.

It's a rookie mistake. But it also raises the question why Kimball was driving that slow in the first place. In a sport that has rules for minimum pace I wonder why Kimball was there at all. Usually the people who run IRL know their stuff and black flag drivers that are too slow. I'd assume they imply some sort of "code of conduct" to have slow drivers move out of the way by themselves. Given the post race information this whole thing is a mix up of many, many mistakes by all parties.

#1465 Bob Riebe

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 02:36

Well, he was going full speed through turn 4 and probably lifted some when he saw the crash. The point is however that if JRH had slowed considerably to get around Kimball, say to 150mph and then accelerated once past him he would have won easily. I assert this because he nearly won the race after hitting the wall and scraping along it for 1/4 of a mile.

I also imagine that Wheldon didn't slow as much as you would normally slow for a yellow flag because if he had, he might not have won.

And if he had done that Wheldon would still have had full momentum and passed him anyway.

#1466 Bob Riebe

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 02:40

To me it looked like JRH lifted or even applied his brakes when he had to lap Kimball. I guess that is what caused the accident. When being close to the limit on a line like that you can't put additional lateral force on your car by doing this. It's a somewhat unique rule to oval racing. I kind of saw this coming when he entered the last turn with Kimball being much slower there.

It's a rookie mistake. But it also raises the question why Kimball was driving that slow in the first place. In a sport that has rules for minimum pace I wonder why Kimball was there at all. Usually the people who run IRL know their stuff and black flag drivers that are too slow. I'd assume they imply some sort of "code of conduct" to have slow drivers move out of the way by themselves. Given the post race information this whole thing is a mix up of many, many mistakes by all parties.

Kimball was still on the lead lap till Hildebrand passed him.

#1467 pingu666

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 02:47

minium speed on ovals doesnt depend on what lap your on, but just pure speed a car has or not. with the average speed so high on ovals a slower car is just asking for a acciedent :x

ofcourse theres normaly a couple of laps grace period for a driver to get upto speed.

#1468 DEVO

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 14:24

What was Kimbill's excuse for not being on the apron at those speeds? Need a lap traffic rule to remove everybody x many laps down from final 10 laps of a race. :)

#1469 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 14:33

He wasn't a lap down at that point.

#1470 Xpat

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 14:47

What was Kimbill's excuse for not being on the apron at those speeds? Need a lap traffic rule to remove everybody x many laps down from final 10 laps of a race. :)


There are no aprons at IMS. They took them out a while ago and there's been a movement to have them put back in.

#1471 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 15:13

They've got the warmup lanes, but they only seem to use those at pit exit now.

#1472 Xpat

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 15:22

They've got the warmup lanes, but they only seem to use those at pit exit now.


I think they took the apron out because it was initially used as a lane to exit and enter the pits, to give them room to get up to speed but a lot of drivers were using them to pass at speed, "going below the white line". So, when they got rid of the apron they put in the warmup lanes in.

Robin Miller go on about them putting them back.

#1473 vapaokie

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 20:52

I also dont recall any other cars in the deceleration lane at the time that may have prevented Kimball from goin there.If there had been i could see why he did stay on the track .



Just watched my personal video from the North Vista of the crash- deceleration lane was wide open in 3 and 4. Kimball should have been down there considering he was only doing 116 in three.

#1474 Lemnpiper

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 16:03

Just watched my personal video from the North Vista of the crash- deceleration lane was wide open in 3 and 4. Kimball should have been down there considering he was only doing 116 in three.



I'm pretty sure now Kimball would have gone there if it hadnt been the last lap of the race and he was hoping he could reachhis last lap before being lapped (which he didnt) so he could claim of doin the fill 200 laps

#1475 Bob Riebe

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 22:19

I'm pretty sure now Kimball would have gone there if it hadnt been the last lap of the race and he was hoping he could reachhis last lap before being lapped (which he didnt) so he could claim of doin the fill 200 laps

BRAVO-BRAVO!


#1476 john glenn printz

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Posted 23 June 2011 - 19:41

If anyone needs a good laugh, I would advise going into GOOGLE and typing in "2011 Indianapolis 500 Hitler". Thereby you can watch "2011 Indy 500 finish makes Hitler very upset" This is actually a film clip from the 2004 German movie about Hilter entitled DOWNFALL. Hitler here is played by Bruno Ganz.

J.G. Printz