68 replies to this topic

[Alan Cox]

The Lindner/Nocker low-drag E Type which crashed at Montlhery in 1964 was revealed to the public last week at owner Peter Neumark's Shropshire base after a four-year restoration project by his CMC concern. I gather that it is scheduled to appear in the UK at the Festival of Speed, and also at the Cholmondeley Pageant of Power in July.
http://www.aronline....-jaguar-e-type/

[AbingdonST]

The Lindner/Nocker low-drag E Type which crashed at Montlhery in 1964 was revealed to the public last week at owner Peter Neumark's Shropshire base after a four-year restoration project by his CMC concern. I gather that it is scheduled to appear in the UK at the Festival of Speed, and also at the Cholmondeley Pageant of Power in July.
http://www.aronline....-jaguar-e-type/

Very good to hear this news, having purchased my CPOP tickets already this just makes me feel so much better, will be straying away from the Mini Cooper Register stand to have a good look at this epic restoration.

[RCH]

Bit puzzled by this, wouldn't this actually be the third rebuild? ISTR maybe 20 years ago a rebuild appeared with a strangely humped roof. When this was commented on it was spirited away and rebuilt again. Or was that merely a "replica"? I'm sure it was described as the Lindner car at the time.

Difficult to tell from the photos but are the rivets there?

[David Birchall]

Bit puzzled by this, wouldn't this actually be the third rebuild? ISTR maybe 20 years ago a rebuild appeared with a strangely humped roof. When this was commented on it was spirited away and rebuilt again. Or was that merely a "replica"? I'm sure it was described as the Lindner car at the time.

Difficult to tell from the photos but are the rivets there?

ISTR that was a Lynx replica-quite how they got it so wrong and still painted it is er, surprising.

I would think the car that is the subject of this thread is more replica than real given the horrific damage it sustained.
Nice to hear it is together though.

Edit: Well, I just read the report and it apparently has 90% of it's original parts!

Edited by David Birchall, 12 May 2011 - 19:39.

[Mistron]

one of the magazines had a few photos of the work in progress as they uncrumpled the wreckage, smoothed the alloy and reformed it. An incredible piece of craftsmanship, and a wonderful advert for the skills within both the company involved and the classic car world in general.

I'm sure the whole proccess will be fully documented and covered in the magazines in the coming months.

[Doug Nye]

Remembering the shock and horrific scenes which accompanied the original car's destruction when I first encountered the wreckage in Peter Kaus's basement, I cannot say that news of its uncrumpling exactly fill me with admiration. I recall our photographer, Peter Hulbert, still trembling the day after as he described what he had seen befall the marshals beside him. The craftsmanship is one thing - the notion to do it at all is another. Personal view...of course...

DCN

[Mistron]

A very valid point Doug. there is no doubt that there is an element of distaste inherent in such a project. It's rather akin to referring to a graveyard as "prime real estate".

Similar to the ex James Dean Spyder discussed on TNF recently, if it was 'unearthed' now, I'm sure someone would wish to rebuild it, yet it's fame (and most of it's value) is almost entirely tied up in the grizzly events all those years ago.

but sometimes values outstrip emotion, or simply some people can distance themselves from the unsavoury early events in a vehicle's life whilst others can't.

I'd struggle.

[AJB]

Which version was the one on public display at Rosso Bianco a few years ago?

[AbingdonST]

Remembering the shock and horrific scenes which accompanied the original car's destruction when I first encountered the wreckage in Peter Kaus's basement, I cannot say that news of its uncrumpling exactly fill me with admiration. I recall our photographer, Peter Hulbert, still trembling the day after as he described what he had seen befall the marshals beside him. The craftsmanship is one thing - the notion to do it at all is another. Personal view...of course...

DCN

It is with some trepedation that I follow Mr Nye on this thread, he does qualify his post with 'Personal view' and from the period should be added. I am new on the 'TNF' and respect the knowledge and wisdom that graces these electronic pages. I have previously stated that I am looking forward to viewing the restored car at the CPOP and I still am. The issue appears to be whether a car involved in a fatality should be restored. I will put my hand up here, I did not know until DCNs post that a (or multiple) marshalls were killed or injured in the incident. The permission of the drivers family has been granted to facilitate the rebuild, doubtful if the marshalls families were likewise contacted (I don't know). I wonder though how many race cars that killed or maimed marshalls or the public were rebuilt and raced again in period. I suppose the question is, just because it can be rebuilt, should it be rebuilt. Lord knows they have even buried cars on the beach only to be dug up decades later to be rebuilt.
Have just been told by the fair Rachael (Fiancee) that i'm wrong and she will not be looking at the car at CPOP, Ghoolish is the word she used. To think I was scared of upsetting Doug Nye, ah well.

Edited by AbingdonST, 12 May 2011 - 21:50.

[elansprint72]

ISTR that was a Lynx replica-quite how they got it so wrong and still painted it is er, surprising.

I would think the car that is the subject of this thread is more replica than real given the horrific damage it sustained.
Nice to hear it is together though.

Edit: Well, I just read the report and it apparently has 90% of it's original parts!

Statistics, eh! Let's say a car has 10k parts; that's lots of little bits like nuts, washers, split-pins, circlip on the end of the windscreen wiper rack ... etc. One could fit a new tub, upper body, doors, boot-lid, bonnet, sub-frame, seat, all the glass... you catch my drift, and still be way under the 10% new bits. I understand why they have done this but...

I'm with Doug.

Edited by elansprint72, 12 May 2011 - 23:11.

[Doug Nye]

First - Abingdon - have no fears about upsetting DCN, go for it, everybody else here does. I just have nasty memories about the deaths of Lindner, whom I greatly admired in period, and of Franco Patria - the top of whose Abarth was sliced off by the rolling Jaguar before - as I understand it - the car also decapitated three equally luckless commissaires standing in their marshal's point.

AJB - when I went through the Rosso Bianco Collection its 'Lindner/Nocker Lightweight E- Type' was a nicely made replica of the original, whose crushed and distorted remains were also within the Collection, out of public sight down in the basement. It was effectively a case of downstairs you see it - upstairs you don't. I am perhaps just a sensitive flower, but seeing the wreckage after all those years genuinely made my skin creep. Others - perhaps with less active imaginations - would receive no such vibes at all. Different strokes, for different folks....

DCN

[AbingdonST]

First - Abingdon - have no fears about upsetting DCN, go for it, everybody else here does. I just have nasty memories about the deaths of Lindner, whom I greatly admired in period, and of Franco Patria - the top of whose Abarth was sliced off by the rolling Jaguar before - as I understand it - the car also decapitated three equally luckless commissaires standing in their marshal's point.

AJB - when I went through the Rosso Bianco Collection its 'Lindner/Nocker Lightweight E- Type' was a nicely made replica of the original, whose crushed and distorted remains were also within the Collection, out of public sight down in the basement. It was effectively a case of downstairs you see it - upstairs you don't. I am perhaps just a sensitive flower, but seeing the wreckage after all those years genuinely made my skin creep. Others - perhaps with less active imaginations - would receive no such vibes at all. Different strokes, for different folks....

DCN

My good lady has corrected me and as more often than not, her judgement would appear to be on the money. I thank you for your grace and respect entirely your view, particularly as I was only four at the time and reading about something is entirely different to living it, something us young pups can all too easily forget.
With respect
Ade Wildsmith

[onelung]

Replica Schmeclica... it alway intrigues me that debates & airing of personal opinions re how much is the real thing and how much not, seem not to pass over from the automotive field, as here, into the warbird aviation realm. For example, if a Spitfire has to have new bits in place of the old for the sake of airworthiness there isn't the same passion over its so-called "authenticity".
Not explaining myself very well here, but hope you get the drift

[AbingdonST]

Replica Schmeclica... it alway intrigues me that debates & airing of personal opinions re how much is the real thing and how much not, seem not to pass over from the automotive field, as here, into the warbird aviation realm. For example, if a Spitfire has to have new bits in place of the old for the sake of airworthiness there isn't the same passion over its so-called "authenticity".
Not explaining myself very well here, but hope you get the drift

Unusually, on this occasion the problem is how authentic the car is, the correctness of all things at the price of sensibilities.

[Ted Walker]

As the owner of the Peter Hulbert photos Doug mentioned in an earlier post I can confirm the accident was not a pretty sight.

[cdrewett]

The Lindner/Nocker low-drag E Type which crashed at Montlhery in 1964 was revealed to the public last week at owner Peter Neumark's Shropshire base after a four-year restoration project by his CMC concern. I gather that it is scheduled to appear in the UK at the Festival of Speed, and also at the Cholmondeley Pageant of Power in July.
http://www.aronline....-jaguar-e-type/

You will be able to get a close look at this fabulous restoration at Shelsley Walsh on June 4/5 where we are celebrating 50years of the E-type.There will be a host of historic Jaguars there. Jaguar Heritage are bringing six cars, we hope including XJ13, and Dick Skipworth is bringing the Ecurie Ecosse transporter with three famous Ecosse Jaguars on board.
These and lots of other cars doing demo runs up the hill.
Oh and by the way, it's a British Hillclimb Championship round as well.
Not to be missed.
Chris

[RCH]

Difficult one this. I was horrified when I heard that "Babs" was to be dug up because the final wishes of those closest to Parry Thomas was that it should be buried. I remember Mike Salmon's angry letter to a magazine when a car purporting to be Brian Hetreed's Aston P214 appeared; Mike knowing he had personally cut up and disposed of the remains.

I knew the basic details of the Lindner/Patria crash but the horror was only brought home by reading Doug's post. I think there is perhaps a case for saying under such circumstances; Peter Lindner has gone and so has his car and totally disposing of the remains. In which case, since to me it will always be the ultimate E Type and should be remembered as such, a replica would be more acceptable than the real thing.

[Duc-Man]

Years ago I read an article about Peter Kaus' rebuild of the car and I understood it that way that they used the wreck.
I didn't know it was 'just' a replica. BTW: what happened to that?

To Mike Salmon: cutting a car into pieces is obviously not enough. You want it destroyed - put it in a shredder.:-(

Edited by Duc-Man, 13 May 2011 - 08:42.

[cdrewett]

Years ago I read an article about Peter Kaus' rebuild of the car and I understood it that way that they used the wreck.
I didn't know it was 'just' a replica. BTW: what happened to that?

To Mike Salmon: cutting a car into pieces is obviously not enough. You want it destroyed - put it in a shredder.:-(

As I understand it the "replica" consisted of as many useable mechanical components as possible from the wreck built into an original but unused tub from John Harper with new body parts.All done by Lynx.
They had two goes at getting the roof shape right.
Sold to Howard Cohen in the States, then to Paul Vestey, thence to Rosso Bianco via Peter Schack.
All the while the wreckage stayed with the rebuild.
After Rosso Bianco was sold to Louwman, Peter Neumark acquired the "replica" plus the wreck and determined to reunite the car.
I am not qualified to have a view on the ethics of the whole thing, but it is an incredible piece of work and a tribute to the restoration skills in this country.

[David Birchall]

Perhaps we should have a photo of the car following the wreck posted here. I know I have a copy somewhere but cannot find it. It gives an idea of the size of the task of rebuilding it.

[thatguy0101]

I wonder though how many race cars that killed or maimed marshalls or the public were rebuilt and raced again in period.

In America, many oval track cars associated with driver fatalities were rebuilt and returned to service. I don't know any stories of cars in the crowd in the 'pre-litigation' era, but I'd be surprised if a car that got in the stands but only had superficial damage was retired, unless it was impounded and confiscated by the local authorities.

Edited by thatguy0101, 13 May 2011 - 15:01.

[D-Type]

Perhaps we should have a photo of the car following the wreck posted here. I know I have a copy somewhere but cannot find it. It gives an idea of the size of the task of rebuilding it.

I've seen one and I'd rather not.

The ethics here are difficult.

I am totally opposed to putting wreckage on show anywhere: This is the car in which [any driver] was killed or even had his career-ending crash.

I am ambivalent about rebuilding a wreck. "This is the car in which [Nuvolari, Fangio, Hector or Lysander or other great driver] won a great victory. It was later destroyed in an accident by [Smith, Jones or whoever] and rebuilt/ restored/ recreated by [Lynx, Crosthwaite and Hall, or whoever]" is acceptable. But put the word "fatal" in front of accident and the whole emotional picture changes.

And if you rebuild the car in which a famous driver was killed, the picture changes again and there is a very thin line between "The only [Ferrari Dino 156] in existence rebuilt from the wreck of the car in which [Von Trips] was killed" and "The car in which [Von Trips] was killed." Especially if the late driver has now got, shall we say, cult status - Ayrton Senna and James Dean immediately spring to mind

But, at the end of the day a car is merely a collection of bits of metal, plastic, rubber etc and it doesn't really have a "soul" soit comes down to how it is described and viewed.

[Alan Cox]

Perhaps we should have a photo of the car following the wreck posted here.

Personally, I can't think why.

[T54]

I was at Linas-Montlhery that weekend with my late friend, the motorcycle racer Claude Vigreux who got later killed at Mettet in Belgium. We witnessed the aftermath of the crash and what ensued. It was pretty horrific. I am not comfortable that someone actually repaired what was basically, a destroyed automobile containing the corpse of a good racer, not to mention the other deceased people involved.
The day before the race, we were told by a track commissary and friend, Mr. Leroy (who was also a motorcycle racer on a BSA Gold Star), that someone had broken in the lockup under the banking where the British team had the car, and stole some wire wheels with mounted Dunlop tires. Great.

[SWB]

I suppose I'm in two minds about this after reading some of the comments, but then again, I have been known to traipse around the Imperal War Museum. Is that so different (machines linked with death), and much of that kit was used in anger, not killing people accidentally?

Steve

Edited by SWB, 13 May 2011 - 16:06.

[David Birchall]

Personally, I can't think why.

To demonstrate the difficulty of rebuilding the car--that is what I am under the impression this thread is about. I am not thinking of photos taken at the crash site-but I know there is a photo of the wreck taken later.

[Mistron]

it's a strange tale, but relevant to the discussions here, I think.

Several years ago I was involved in the sale of an old race car (I won't say which one, for obvious reasons) but at one time it had been involved in a fatal racing accident. We had an enquiry, and the guy raised the question over whether the driver had been killed in the car.

'Yes' we said, it was involved in a fatal accident, but was not actually that badly damaged in the crash, so was repaired and sold on to race again.

'no, no' he said, 'I heard that the guy was thrown out in the accident'

'Eh, yes, i believe that is the case' said I.

'So he didn't die IN the car?'

'Well, I supose no, not actually IN it.....'

He bought the car.

I'm sure if the poor guy had suffered the same accident and fate, but remained in the car he wouldn't have bought it. It seems people can satisfy themselves of ethical issues if they want to justify the purchase, though as I say, in this case the car was not anything like so damaged and a rebuild was 'practical '


Why the remains of the E type were not fully destroyed at the time is a mystery to me. But then, Chapman had the remains of Jimmy's 48 wreck destroyed, but Jochen's car made it's way into private hands? Looking at this and the list of owners of the Linder wreck over the years, there are clearly a lot of collectors keen / happy to own such a macabre item.

there's nought as queer as folk!

[Doug Nye]

I think these matters are very much gut reaction - you either recoil from such things or just wonder what precious flowers some blokes seem to be. I happen to be in the recoiling camp, because I recall the scene and remember Pete's profound state of shock while we processed his films in the just-equipped darkroom in the bowels of the old grandstand at Brands Hatch (our editorial office being located in a Portakabin by the old paddock gate).

Similarly, I'm not particularly religious, but I love churches because for me there's a sense of all our yesterdays, and all our ancestors, their joys, loves, fears, grief, celebration...all marinated into the buildings' fabric. You are either sympathetic to those kind of resonances, are sensitised to them and 'get' what I mean, or this will convince you that this old beardie weirdie has finally flipped and is utterly barking.

And no - don't take a vote on it.

DCN

[AJB]

When I visited Rosso Bianco some years ago and saw the "Lindner/Nocker E-Type" and the "original" black/silver "works" McLaren M1A, it spoilt it for me because I then began to question how many of the other exhibits were really what they purported to be.
Perhaps this aspect would be better on another thread.

Alan

[David Birchall]

I suppose I'm in two minds about this after reading some of the comments, but then again, I have been known to traipse around the Imperal War Museum. Is that so different (machines linked with death), and much of that kit was used in anger, not killing people accidentally?

Steve

I think this is an interesting take on it. DCN has a personal connection, if I may put it that way, to the accident involving the car in question, that makes his point of view different to most of us. We have threads running on TNF about the Spitfire and the Dambusters Raid. Many, including me, have eulogised the Lancaster bomber. Lets put that in perspective: In one raid on Germany by the combined RAF/USAF 130,000 German civilians were killed; almost three times the the total number of English civilian casualties in WW2 (source: The Secret War). Yet we still revere the Lancaster.
The Lindner/Nocker E Type was arguably the most significant E type-isn't it better that the original survive rather than yet one more replica?

[Pullman99]

The Lindner/Nocker E Type was arguably the most significant E type-isn't it better that the original survive rather than yet one more replica?

I have posted the news of the restoration of the Lindner / Nocker E Type on The Bluebird Project Forum. As a supporter of the rebuilding of Donald Campbell's Bluebird K7 I was struck by the obvious connection. There have been similar arguments that have ensued from both projects and, as has been pointed out in this thread, there are other potential and actual restorations in the motorsport - and aviation - fields where this debate has continued and, no doubt, will never be concluded.

I would suggest, however, that technical challenges associated with, and successfully achieved, during the rebuild of K7 have had a significant influence on the viability and acceptanility of such schemes. Whether or not this trend will continue in connection with other well-known vehicles only time will tell.

[AbingdonST]

I do not think that drawing comparison between the deliberate acts and consequence of war and loss of life (not pre-planned) in pursuit of sporting activities can reasonably come to any useful conclusion, the two are truly as chalk and cheese.

Edited by AbingdonST, 13 May 2011 - 22:21.

[David Birchall]

I do not think that drawing comparison between the deliberate acts and consequence of war and loss of life (not pre-planned) in pursuit of sporting acvtivities can reasonably come to any useful conclusion, the two are truly as chalk and cheese.

It was not "acts" that I was alluding to-it was our admiration for mechanical objects despite their having been involved in death and destruction. There appears to be a double standard here.

[Doug Nye]

Perhaps an engine of war operated within a hostile environment is a very, very different proposition to a peacetime competition machine run for fun, potential profit and personal joy and satisfaction, which in a split second became an instrument of traumatic destruction for five men and five families.

War resides on one shelf - motor sport, even at a professional level, and volunteer duties bred of enthusiasm surely occupy another?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 13 May 2011 - 21:51.

[AbingdonST]

It was not "acts" that I was alluding to-it was our admiration for mechanical objects despite their having been involved in death and destruction. There appears to be a double standard here.

Hello David, there did seem to be some connection made between the 130,000 and the E-Type incident, I realise that was probably a mis-read on my part. The admiration of the Lancaster and Spitfire and Destroyer Escort ships and other adapted weapons of war is understandable, either out of respect for the skill behind the design or out of gratitude to their part in our enduring freedom. I get a warm buzz each time the BBMF fly over Lincoln and it is largely for the 'Sight and Sound' but also for the people who did whatever they had to do to PROTECT and SURVIVE. I still believe that to connect a Racing death on any level with those lives lost in defence of whatever country you were fighting for is to diminish both.
Sorry keep forgetting to sign
Ade

Edited by AbingdonST, 13 May 2011 - 22:00.

[cooper997]

In the June 2009 issue of Classic & Sports Car (page 140) is the feature of this car in its 'uncrumpling' stage. Given the bent and twisted remains shown and the emotional comments here, one could simply ask, "Why?" It's clearly not an economic one, with 2500 hours quoted as having been spent on the project at that stage and the likelyhood of that again to complete.

It you dig out the article I suspect that you'll have to ignore the headline of "Revival of the fittest". An editorial oversight perhaps.

Stephen

Edited by cooper997, 14 May 2011 - 00:13.

[thatguy0101]

In the June 2009 issue of Classic & Sports Car (page 140) is the feature of this car in its 'uncrumpling' stage. Given the bent and twisted remains shown and the emotional comments here, one could simply ask, "Why?" It's clearly not an economic one, with 2500 hours quoted as having been spent on the project at that stage and the likelyhood of that again to complete.

The economics of the rebuild are the least of their worries. Assuming that its heritage isn't offputting for potential owners, it's a 7-figure car in dollars, pounds, and euro.

As a floor, it must be worth more than a Sanction II DB4GT Zagato. Where it fits in the pecking order of collectible Jaguars below the XJ13 and the Le Mans winners is up for grabs, but if two people want a complete collection of E-types, they'll both probably be trying to buy this car.

Edited by thatguy0101, 14 May 2011 - 03:12.

[john ruston]

Knowing Peter Neumark the rebuild is not being done for financial gain but as an addition to his very fine collection.

I think Mr Nye's take on the subject is correct but that is from someone who knew those involved and was closely involved in the racing scene when it happened rather than read about it in a book.

The Berha 550 rebuild is another that should be questioned especially by those who saw the Autosport photo(Francis Penn?)

[Duc-Man]

The admiration of the Lancaster and Spitfire and Destroyer Escort ships and other adapted weapons of war is understandable, either out of respect for the skill behind the design or out of gratitude to their part in our enduring freedom. I get a warm buzz each time the BBMF fly over Lincoln and it is largely for the 'Sight and Sound' but also for the people who did whatever they had to do to PROTECT and SURVIVE.
Sorry keep forgetting to sign
Ade

My mother grew up in a town that was bombed 3 times during WW2. Twice by the US and once by the RAF. Tha americans aimed at industrial areas and main roads and railways both times.
The brits aimed striktly at residential areas. Also think about Dresden. Enduring freedom is one thing...massmurder is another.
Sorry for going OT but we should not have a Spitfire or Dambuster thread here in the first place.

[terry mcgrath]

The history and photos of this car and the other 11 Lightweight E types is superbly covered in this new book by Philip Porter -
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Publication: Mid April

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This book is packed full of material to fascinate and inform E-type and motor-racing enthusiasts...

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[David Birchall]

Darn! And I had decided not to buy any more books!

[RCH]

My mother grew up in a town that was bombed 3 times during WW2. Twice by the US and once by the RAF. Tha americans aimed at industrial areas and main roads and railways both times.
The brits aimed striktly at residential areas. Also think about Dresden. Enduring freedom is one thing...massmurder is another.
Sorry for going OT but we should not have a Spitfire or Dambuster thread here in the first place.

I agree this is really not the place to discuss such things but if you must mention "mass murder" and Dresden then perhaps I should mention the city where the Jaguar originated from?

[David McKinney]

...also other British cities such as Liverpool and especially London

[D-Type]

My mother grew up in a town that was bombed 3 times during WW2. Twice by the US and once by the RAF. Tha americans aimed at industrial areas and main roads and railways both times.
The brits aimed striktly at residential areas. Also think about Dresden. Enduring freedom is one thing...massmurder is another.
Sorry for going OT but we should not have a Spitfire or Dambuster thread here in the first place.

I'll echo the statement that this isn't the place to discuss these issues, but I can't leave this without responding.

It's curious how viewpoints differ. I always understood that it was the Americans and the Luftwaffe that practiced carpet bombing and the RAF that targeted industrial areas.

Guernica? Rotterdam? Nanking? Hiroshima? Nobody is blameless - war is war.

Edited by D-Type, 14 May 2011 - 20:43.

[Duc-Man]

I always understood that it was the Americans and the Luftwaffe that practiced carpet bombing and the RAF that targeted industrial areas.

I just know for sure in the case of my mothers hometown. For other cities it might have been different.
As a german I didn't learn the history of WW2 in school in all its details. Actually we didn't learn any details. We just learned what led up to it and that we are the evil ones because of the cruelties we did to the jews.
Why I put Dresden and mass murder together is because the city was full with refugees at the time. There were far more people in town than its actual population. And 'Bomber' Harris knew about that.

Can we go back to the original subject now?

[doc knutsen]

I'll echo the statement that this isn't the place to discuss these issues, but I can't leave this without responding.

It's curious how viewpoints differ. I always understood that it was the Americans and the Luftwaffe that practiced carpet bombing and the RAF that targeted industrial areas.

Guernica? Rotterdam? Nanking? Hiroshima? Nobody is blameless - war is war.

The allied bombing of Germany differed up until the campaign against Berlin, late in the war. Until then, the US priority was strategically significant industrial targets, while Harris' Bomber Command targeted all the major German cities. In February 1942, the directors of Bomber Operations issued a directive, approved by the Cabinet, initiating the era of carped bombing. This directive was interpreted by Harris in a manner which may have strayed somewhat from the intentions of those responsible for it, in that Harris used it to "focus attacks on the morale of the enemy civilian population and, in particular, on the industrial workers " whereas it seems to have been intended as a temporary measure, to be pursued until other alternatives, such as precision strategic bombing, would become available.

The US effort, targeting oil supplies, ball bearing supplies, transportation and the Luftwaffe itself, was, with hindsight, probably more significant in bringing the Nazi war efforts to its knees. But with the controversial decision on bombing Berlin, the US priorities shifted and Hiroshima and Nagasaki are testimonials to that.

Post-war Britain did not treat Harris very well, it seems, and his policies have been harshly criticized over the years. However, it is wrong, in my opinion, to view the bombing campaing through contemporary glasses. Carpet bombing was, after all, initiated by the Luftwaffe in 1940. Had they had long-distance bombers and aircraft carriers available to hit the cities on east coast of the US after Pearl Harbour, the US bombing priorities might have been very different. As you say,nobody is blameless in a war.
A good friend, a Professor of History (and a US citizen) likes to say that the WWII was the only conflict, in the history of mankind, that had to be fought - and won. There is certainly some truth in that. For me, the Lancasters, the Spitfires and the Mosquitoes that I admire so much, were significant tools in our struggle to rid the World of facism.

Edited by doc knutsen, 15 May 2011 - 09:12.

[D-Type]

~ significant tools ~

Along with the Liberty ship, the Jeep and the Dakota

[404KF2]

Peugeot had Ari Vatanen's Argentine crashed Group 205 Turbo 16 wreckage, in which Vatanen very nearly died, on display at the Paris headquarters of Peugeot a short while after the crash, but the French have never been terribly politically correct, which is one reason I why I love that country so much. They did not rebuild it though....insert Gallic shrug here.

This Jaguar is interesting but I'm thinking that despite the enormous effort and cost of remaking the car, it should not really have much value over an ordinary E-Type.

[elansprint72]

Can we go back to the original subject now?

Indeed, perhaps we should.

However, I would just like to say that, as an engineer, I greatly admire the detail work in the Tiger tank, (a pity that Dr Porsche did not really understand the finances and probable useful life-span of it) the engine in the Me 109 was truly a beautiful piece of work; as were some of the BMW radial designs.

My Father arrived at Bergen-Belsen four days after the "liberation" (having spent some of his war fighting Rommel, "a professional soldier" he said). He could not believe that the sights he saw were created by the same modern-world nation which made the beautiful Leitz map-drawing equipment he used in his battle against its creators. The few days he spent there made him realise why he had been away from home for the best part of six years.

So, back to the replicar and its grisly history...

[David Birchall]

This Jaguar is interesting but I'm thinking that despite the enormous effort and cost of remaking the car, it should not really have much value over an ordinary E-Type.