68 replies to this topic

[xj13v12]

Yes people must be kidding if they think the restored car will lack value. Try a few million as opening bid. No relationship at all with a road E-Type. Any genuine lightweight E is highly prized.

[lanciaman]

It was not "acts" that I was alluding to-it was our admiration for mechanical objects despite their having been involved in death and destruction. There appears to be a double standard here.

Agreed. I own several old military firearms. I am fully able to admire the design genius, mechanical function, manufacturing standards and historic context without fretting about whether one or another of my pieces has been fired in anger at a human being.

[David Birchall]

As regards value of this particular car, probably the best comparison would be 49FXN, the Lumsden/Sargent car, which was developed to a possibly higher level. I would think close to 2 million pounds? It does not have the macabre history of the Lindner/Nocker car and if the fascination with "Death Cars" means anything the Lindner/Nocker car would be worth more.

[Mistron]

please tell me you aren't suggesting that you think a death in the cars histtory ADDS value????
In my experience (just one example related earlier) it certainly makes cars harder to sell .

[Philip Whiteman]

elansprint72: you mention Leitz drawing equipment - it might have been some consolation to your dad to know that prior to the war Leitz (makers also of the famous Leica camera) did their utmost to save their Jewish employees by setting up fake jobs in E. Leitz, New York and arranging transfer to North America at the company's expense.

During the war, the company was forced against its objections to use slave labour. Ellie Leitz did her utmost to ensure these people were well treated, even helping many escape. For her troubles, she was arrested by the Gestapo and severely beaten. Much more on this subject on the rangefinder forum.

Edited by Philip Whiteman, 16 May 2011 - 18:38.

[David Birchall]

please tell me you aren't suggesting that you think a death in the cars histtory ADDS value????
In my experience (just one example related earlier) it certainly makes cars harder to sell .

Well, notoriety certainly adds value to most items for sale... People talk a lot about the James Dean Porsche but since it has not been for sale since the fifties it is impossible to guess at a true value of that car if it were to be be put back together as the Lindner/Nocker car has been. I would say it is a moot point until the car under discussion is put on the market-and I am sure it will be.

[SWB]

I don't know why a car can't be remembered for what it was meant to be, that spirit as a race car, rather than the stigma attached through no fault of its own. How many cars still exist that have driven their owners or close associates to an early grave through restoration costs, or running costs, manufacturing costs, and then financial hardship? How many MG's built were the final nail in the coffin of people who never went back to work again? Yes, so its easy to over hype historical connections, but this E Type is just a beautiful car, so be thankful for what it was meant to be.

Steve

[PeteSouthan]

Hi,
First a quick introduction, I am Pete Southan I am the guy who re-built the Lindner Knocker low Drag E body while on contract to Peter Neumark.
Firstly I have to say the moral subject was taken very seriously by Peter Neumark and myself. I can vouch that Peter N did a large amount of research to try and contact family members of all involved with the car, and the accident. 
Peter Neumark's interest in this car is purely as a collector and a historian and certainly not some kind of business venture, he is quite comfortable financially I can assure you!
He has had a passion for the car for many years, I can guarantee that this car will not be on the market whilst Peter N is still breathing!
Secondly, I have some 3000+ photographs of every inch of the body through the re-build that will prove that 90% of the original material I had, was re-used.
We didn't have the passenger door or the passenger side front wing and there was about a 12" section of the front drivers side screen pillar missing, bar that everything was flattened, repaired, reshaped and refitted. There were also two small sections (about 6 inches) of the rear end of the roof missing (where it meets the rear wing) we obtained these original parts about a month before the job was completed so the decision was taken to leave them off. (I wonder if the door and the wing will ever turn up?)
Also the little vent flap that was put on the roof by the German team was left off. It has been restored. I would like to have seen it put back, however it is very crudely made and not liked by Peter N he felt as it wasn't a Jaguar mod, it should be left off.
I have absolutely nothing to hide with this job, it took just under three years of my life to complete and I have paid the price for the intensity of the project.
I had some well earned help from my colleague Luke Martin for a few weeks on the job, other than that this body is all my own work.
My part of this restoration was completed last May.
I can not comment on the originality of the mechanical components of the car as this was outside my involvement, however I think I can say that the 'majority' of the mechanical components are from the original vehicle. The parts that have been replaced are period items left over from the jaguar light weight project.
Also I must add I can not comment on any marketing statements by CMC Ltd, this is in there hands.
I am happy to answer technical questions on this project. Just don't ask me to do it again!!
I hope this gives you a little bit of 'hands on' incite into the project.

Pete Southan
Pete Southan Metalcraft Ltd.

[Alan Cox]

Welcome to TNF, Pete. And thanks for giving us your part of the inside story.

[xj13v12]

Hi,
First a quick introduction, I am Pete Southan I am the guy who re-built the Lindner Knocker low Drag E body while on contract to Peter Neumark.
Firstly I have to say the moral subject was taken very seriously by Peter Neumark and myself. I can vouch that Peter N did a large amount of research to try and contact family members of all involved with the car, and the accident. 
Peter Neumark's interest in this car is purely as a collector and a historian and certainly not some kind of business venture, he is quite comfortable financially I can assure you!
He has had a passion for the car for many years, I can guarantee that this car will not be on the market whilst Peter N is still breathing!
Secondly, I have some 3000+ photographs of every inch of the body through the re-build that will prove that 90% of the original material I had, was re-used.
We didn't have the passenger door or the passenger side front wing and there was about a 12" section of the front drivers side screen pillar missing, bar that everything was flattened, repaired, reshaped and refitted. There were also two small sections (about 6 inches) of the rear end of the roof missing (where it meets the rear wing) we obtained these original parts about a month before the job was completed so the decision was taken to leave them off. (I wonder if the door and the wing will ever turn up?)
Also the little vent flap that was put on the roof by the German team was left off. It has been restored. I would like to have seen it put back, however it is very crudely made and not liked by Peter N he felt as it wasn't a Jaguar mod, it should be left off.
I have absolutely nothing to hide with this job, it took just under three years of my life to complete and I have paid the price for the intensity of the project.
I had some well earned help from my colleague Luke Martin for a few weeks on the job, other than that this body is all my own work.
My part of this restoration was completed last May.
I can not comment on the originality of the mechanical components of the car as this was outside my involvement, however I think I can say that the 'majority' of the mechanical components are from the original vehicle. The parts that have been replaced are period items left over from the jaguar light weight project.
Also I must add I can not comment on any marketing statements by CMC Ltd, this is in there hands.
I am happy to answer technical questions on this project. Just don't ask me to do it again!!
I hope this gives you a little bit of 'hands on' incite into the project.

Pete Southan
Pete Southan Metalcraft Ltd.

Hooray! The person who actually knows what he is talking about. Well done.

[David Birchall]

Welcome to TNF, Pete. And thanks for giving us your part of the inside story.

Absolutely agree!
This car is one of the cars I, like others, hold in very high regard. It looked right and it went very well indeed! The last generation of the big front engined GT racers.

I and I am sure others, would love to see some photographs of the rebuilding process-is that possible? Posting photos on this site is a PITA so you might want to email them to somebody who is familiar with the process to keep from generating any more stress than the rebuild caused you. Great to have your input and happy to hear it will not be a "fix it and flog it" scenario.

[elansprint72]

elansprint72: you mention Leitz drawing equipment - it might have been some consolation to your dad to know that prior to the war Leitz (makers also of the famous Leica camera) did their utmost to save their Jewish employees by setting up fake jobs in E. Leitz, New York and arranging transfer to North America at the company's expense.

During the war, the company was forced against its objections to use slave labour. Ellie Leitz did her utmost to ensure these people were well treated, even helping many escape. For her troubles, she was arrested by the Gestapo and severely beaten. Much more on this subject on the rangefinder forum.

I know the story well; many folks were packed off to the US and elsewhere as "salesesmen" taking a new camera with them.

Edited by elansprint72, 17 May 2011 - 11:15.

[Pullman99]

...I have some 3000+ photographs of every inch of the body through the re-build that will prove that 90% of the original material I had, was re-used.Pete Southan Pete Southan Metalcraft Ltd.

May I echo the recent posts on this thread and congratulate Pete Southan and everyone who has been involved with this work. It would be truly wonderful to see some of the photographs of the work in progress on this Forum. Was a video of this project ever considered by Mr Neumark? I most certainly look forward to seeing the car at events during the year.

Edited by Pullman99, 03 December 2011 - 16:09.

[Alan Cox]

I and I am sure others, would love to see some photographs of the rebuilding process-is that possible?

It would be truly wonderful to see some of the photographs of the work in progress on this Forum.

In the meantime, you might find CMC's own website of interest, with a series of photos showing 'work in progress'. http://www.classic-m...ner_nocker.html
It is an excellent site, and also shows details of work being undertaken on other cars, including 'Lofty' England's E Type, the Daily Mail competition-prize E Type and a Coombs Mk2
http://www.classic-m...co.uk/news.html

[Pullman99]

It is an excellent site, and also shows details of work being undertaken on other cars, including 'Lofty' England's E Type, the Daily Mail competition-prize E Type and a Coombs Mk2

Thanks Alan. I had looked at the CMC site previously, but if Mr Southan can contribute some more, that would be fantastic.

The ex-Lofty England E Type was on show at Race Retro this year was it not? The car was on the Classic Cars magazine stand. Truly superb craftsmanship.

Found some pics.

Edited by Pullman99, 17 May 2011 - 19:54.

[john ruston]

I would confirm that Peter Neumark is one of the very good guys.

This car will be part of what is a superb collection.

No financial gain.

[Wouter Melissen]

Here are some more shots from the car at Villa d'Este last month: http://www.ultimatec...Drag-Coupe.html

It did look absolutely fantastic and it was hard to fathom how CMC's workers pulled this off, preserving 90% of the original metal. The car should be back out at the Festival of Speed next week.

[Doug Nye]

I would like to go on record to congratulate Pete Southan most sincerely for his dedication and craftsmanship in this rebuild Just because I find the project distasteful is irrelevant when it comes to a demonstration of such skill.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 22 June 2011 - 17:50.

[Jagjon]

I would like to go on record to congratulate Pete Southan most sincerely for his dedication and craftsmanship in this rebuild Just because I find the project distasteful is irrelevant when it comes to a demonstration of such skill.

DCN

Anyone viewing this rebuild might spare a thought for the unfortunate Lindner, the talented young Franco Patria and the three officials, Jean Pairard, a former sports car racer, Rene Dumoulin and Roger Millot who all died in this accident.
As the car was retained for an official investigation, was the outcome of any fault/blame ever published? What was it about broken engine mountings?
Cars don't have the mind to kill people, that's usually the human element unless mechanical failure is to blame.
Regarding rebuilds apart from Lynx, I recall a Simon Dunford built replica, and one suppose to be in USA?
Man can rebuild anything given the time, and many a guy from a crash repair bodyshop can work apparent miracles if the end result is worth it, more than a few Ferraris & Miuras
have been rebuilt after fatal accidents, and later owners probably don't know it!
If it is a vehicle from an accident where death is the result then it is up to personal conscience and perhaps taste how you view it.
Not for me!
Nothing to do with this but the ex Lindner/Nocker Ferrari 250GT Berlinetta used to be housed within a few miles of Bridgenorth, & later owned by Frank Wall.