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The greatest 33?


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#101 thatguy0101

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 20:01

The so-called Midget historians should really stop these childish arguments about which group was better, and dig their noses into documents to unravel those important co-op agreements.


AFAIK, the identity of sanctioning bodies is only useful in this discussion as a tool for understanding the quality of a driver's opposition and the legitimacy of the results (e.g., Schrader and Collins were the best of IMCA, but how stiff was their opposition, and how many times did they actually race each other for the win?).

Establishing the technical foundations of the sanctioning agreements for individual races for its own sake, unless it improves our understanding of the competition on the track now that the participants aren't here to help us, seems like a hobby I wouldn't want.

Edited by thatguy0101, 01 June 2011 - 20:17.


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#102 Jim Thurman

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 20:04

Again, since the 33 is supposed to be based solely on performance at IMS (I've simply mentioned some of the non-Indy racing to give some additional background), Fred Frame is still a good choice as he led three races and drove very smartly to win the '32 race. Also, as I've mentioned, Frame was considered a threat to win in races prior to '32 and often figured in pre-race previews. That wouldn't happen without reason.

#103 E1pix

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 20:06

To make the math easy, a 4 sec lead at Indy is exactly 1/4 mile at 225mph. It's 5/8 mi from the beginning of T3 to the end of T4, and 3/8 mi from T4 to the finish line.

Correct.... so if JR had slowed and averaged 170 mph for that last 3/4 mile, he would have still won by one second....

Perhaps spotters should carry calculators, and/or be good at seat-of-the-pants math.

#104 thatguy0101

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 21:14

Again, since the 33 is supposed to be based solely on performance at IMS (I've simply mentioned some of the non-Indy racing to give some additional background), Fred Frame is still a good choice as he led three races and drove very smartly to win the '32 race. Also, as I've mentioned, Frame was considered a threat to win in races prior to '32 and often figured in pre-race previews. That wouldn't happen without reason.


No worries. AFAIK, you aren't the one rating Frame ahead of Vukovich overall as a driver.

#105 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:03

As far as sanction, I was simply referring solely to the dates you listed for Fred Frame. It appears that the information from the Los Angeles Times listing some of those dates as NARA, might be incorrect...or could their have been joint sanction? (which would seem highly unusual for the era).


Can you be a bit more specific? I agree, joint sanction by AAA and NARA does not look likely, and newspapers are sometimes wrong, but I'd really like to double check.

#106 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:34

AFAIK, the identity of sanctioning bodies is only useful in this discussion as a tool for understanding the quality of a driver's opposition and the legitimacy of the results (e.g., Schrader and Collins were the best of IMCA, but how stiff was their opposition, and how many times did they actually race each other for the win?).

Establishing the technical foundations of the sanctioning agreements for individual races for its own sake, unless it improves our understanding of the competition on the track now that the participants aren't here to help us, seems like a hobby I wouldn't want.


That's the idea, yes. Agreements (and TPs, Temporary Permits) open the market, so to speak, and can make regional clubs stronger, or inject more regional class into AAA fields. They also influence the direction a group is taking, sometimes making it stronger, or in the worst case scenario, can lead to the folding up of organizations. To understand the rationale behind those agreements, one has to take a holistic view and see where promoters, track owners and spectators are headed, not to speak of car owners and drivers. It's become popular to look only at the latter, but racing is much more than just driving cars fast - just like movies are more than just actors at work. :)

Edited by Michael Ferner, 01 June 2011 - 22:36.


#107 Bob Riebe

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:52

Correct.... so if JR had slowed and averaged 170 mph for that last 3/4 mile, he would have still won by one second....

Perhaps spotters should carry calculators, and/or be good at seat-of-the-pants math.

I would bet any money on the gents at the track of being better informed as to what was going on.
Does that mean they did or could not err-- no, but they had far more intel that the fans in the stands.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 01 June 2011 - 22:53.


#108 E1pix

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:57

I would bet any money on the gents at the track of being better informed as to what was going on.
Does that mean they did or could not err-- no, but they had far more intel that the fans in the stands.

Of course.... and hindsight's always perfect.


#109 thatguy0101

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:26

It's become popular to look only at the latter, but racing is much more than just driving cars fast - just like movies are more than just actors at work.


I would assert that watching the action on the track has always been the popular part. Only an obsessive minority (you and I, for two) would ever be interested in the details of administration, and debate the merits of Sloan, Pillsbury, and Hankinson.

Again, the subject of this thread was a comparison of drivers. I hope we can agree that's mostly settled by the results on the track, leavened with our knowledge that this sport isn't as simple as lining up runners in a foot race. Unless there's evidence that a particular sanctioning body interferes with the results on the track, the value of precisely identifying the sanctioning body of these races simply escapes me for the purposes of this thread, unless it gives better information about who was in the race.