22 replies to this topic

[David Birchall]

I perform classic car appraisals and my latest project is a 1937 Alvis Speed 25 Tourer that was apparently first owned by the King Ghazi 1st of Iraq. Basic research has shown that he was killed while "driving his sports car" in 1939.
What was this "sports car"?
You have two days starting now

[Wirra]

Edited by Wirra, 19 May 2011 - 03:33.

[RA Historian]

Amazing. 13 minutes after the question is posed, a video of the crashed car is posted. I have been on this forum for about five years, but the breadth of knowledge and sources of information here still amazes me.
Tom

[David Birchall]

Good grief!!
And I thought I would check back tomorrow!

The car looks to be American?

I am just relieved it isn't an Alvis...

ps Did anyone else notice the one comment that has been made on you tube?

Well done Wirra

Here is another view of the King-"setting an example to his people"
That they should all buy aeroplanes apparently.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by David Birchall, 19 May 2011 - 04:06.

[Wirra]

...Did anyone else notice the one comment that has been made on you tube?...

There was/is speculation that MI5 (or their predecessor) bumped him off - pre umbrella tip days!

Edited by Wirra, 19 May 2011 - 04:17.

[Vitesse2]

There was/is speculation that MI5 (or their predecessor) bumped him off - pre umbrella tip days!

German black propaganda at the time and repeated in the wake of the Bierkeller bomb in November 1939. Note the other alleged "crimes". Source: The Times Apr 6 & Nov 22 1939.



As Goebbels himself said: "If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes truth."

The Times also reported the accident, but didn't deem it necessary to reveal what make the car was.

[Wirra]

For crying out loud... It was a joke, Joyce. I was merely offering David an explanation for the You-Tube comment. I even left out the bit about Iraqi police at the time looking for the ruggedly handsome driver of a silver Aston Martin seen street racing with the King moments before the crash.

Interesting words by the Times correspondent, "mob psychology of primitive people" and "coolies engaged on the railway". You really wouldn't need a Masters in Propaganda to stir up anti-British feeling, in those days they could do it pretty much themselves.

An Antipodean

[Vitesse2]

For crying out loud... It was a joke, Joyce. I was merely offering David an explanation for the You-Tube comment.

Indeed.

Jokes are all very well in their place, but left uncommented on, anybody searching for information on this in years to come might not appreciate that.

As Goebbels himself said: "If you repeat a lie often enough it becomes truth."

[David Birchall]

The King died apparently when the car hit a lamp post--judging by the dent in the top of the windshield it looks like the lamp post hit back!

Can anyone identify the car the King was driving?

[antonvrs]

The King died apparently when the car hit a lamp post--judging by the dent in the top of the windshield it looks like the lamp post hit back!

Can anyone identify the car the King was driving?

It appears to be a 1939 Buick convertible sedan "sports car"
Anton

[Sharman]

It appears to be a 1939 Buick convertible sedan "sports car"
Anton

Semantics I know, but can you have a "convertible sedan"?. Maybe that is the root of the term convertible, I'd never thought about it before. A sedan or closed car which is convertible, when was the expression first used I wonder.

[David M. Woodhouse]

Semantics I know, but can you have a "convertible sedan"?. Maybe that is the root of the term convertible, I'd never thought about it before. A sedan or closed car which is convertible, when was the expression first used I wonder.

Convertible sedan is Amercan for Four Door Convertible, as opposed to to the more common two door drop top. Convertible sedans have roll up windows where phaetons usually are more spartan with side curtains.

Woody

[venator]

Claims of British involvement in the King's death would be more convincing if there were witness accounts of a white FIAT being seen just ahead of the King's car immediately before the crash.

[Frank S]

From the title of the thread, it appears Iraq had a sports car, and someone was the king of it.

I agree on the "1939 Buick" identification. There was one in our family for nearly ten years, a four-door sedan.

[David Birchall]

From the title of the thread, it appears Iraq had a sports car, and someone was the king of it.

I will have to refer that to the Standing Committee on the "Blood Pressure" thread.

[D-Type]

Convertible sedan is Amercan for Four Door Convertible, as opposed to to the more common two door drop top. Convertible sedans have roll up windows where phaetons usually are more spartan with side curtains.

Woody

Does anyone know of a site on the Internet that has a glossary of coachwork terms like these?

Edited by D-Type, 20 May 2011 - 08:47.

[David McKinney]

Possibly earlier than you want, but should apply at least in part
http://www.auto-main...es-history.html

[Sharman]

Possibly earlier than you want, but should apply at least in part
http://www.auto-main...es-history.html

....but no Sedan, which term I imagined to have been taken from Sedan Chair which was invariably closed. now why were they called "Sedan" chairs? Obviuosly nothing to do with the battle. latin SEDARE to sit or SEDES a seat.

[Tim Murray]

This website confirms what I vaguely remember learning at school, that they originated in the town of Sedan:

http://www.georgiani...n/chairmen.html

[David McKinney]

This website confirms what I vaguely remember learning at school, that they originated in the town of Sedan:

That's what I thought
By a Hackney carriage has nothing to do with Hackney

[Terry Walker]

And Hansom cabs aren't really all THAT good looking.

Did you know the last Hansom cab in London retired at last in 1935 or 1936? Last I saw, it was in Gunnersbury Park museum harnessed to a fibreglass horse.

On coachwork terms, there's a useful UK/US chart on my Rolls-Royce club website http://www.rrocwa.com somewhere in "Articles".

Edited by Terry Walker, 20 May 2011 - 13:46.

[Sharman]

This website confirms what I vaguely remember learning at school, that they originated in the town of Sedan:

http://www.georgiani...n/chairmen.html

Brewer's has it:- Sedan Chair--The covered seat so called, carried on poles by two bearers back and front, first appeared in Italy in the late 16th century, and was introduced into England by Sir S. Duncombe in 1634.
The name Sedan was first used in England; it was probably coined from sedere to sit, though it is just possible that Johnson's suggestion, viz. that it is connected with the French town, SEDAN , has something to do with it.

Definitely no relation to a four wheel, four door American convertible. Sedan as I originally commented is essentially covered. Can we therefore have a Sedan Convertible?

Edited by Sharman, 20 May 2011 - 13:53.

[Vitesse2]

I don't think you could ever compile a definitive list, simply because every company's marketing department had its own idea of what a certain style was: see for example this Wikipedia page on "Town car", which suggests that the fairly well-known style name "sedanca" or "sedanca de ville" was coined by the Spanish Count Salamanca and then goes on to further confuse with various American usages of "town car".

Researching some Malayan hillclimb results the other day I came across a driver using what was described as a "Buick Coupe" in both the touring car class and the sports car class. Helpfully, there was also a photograph, which revealed it was actually a convertible! Therefore a "drophead coupe" rather than a plain "coupe", "town coupe" or "business coupe". Nor even a little deuce coupe ;)