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#1 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:24

...and some more if you're interested...

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12A

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DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 May 2011 - 13:30.


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#2 RA Historian

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:53

#4, Borgward RS racers, c1957?

#3 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 13:57

...and some more if you're interested...

If we had a thread for too silly question, it would be #1.



#4 Doug Nye

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:15

Thanks Arjan - I suppose I would have taken a dim view...

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 19 May 2011 - 14:15.


#5 Stephen W

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:18

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Ford Galaxie 7 litre?

#6 Paul Parker

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:23

Could no.4 be the Borgwards of Bonnier and Herrmann at the 1958 Gaisberg mountain hillclimb in Austria in 1958?

#7 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:25

Posted Image
8
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Wild guess: 1950 Spa, Ferrari 125 F1, Gigi Villoresi, H for Hors Competition? Note: on Engleberts.

#8 RTH

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:26

Delightful photographs Doug. Thank you for taking the time to post them and I know it does take a lot of time and effort.

Picture number 10 is interesting. That looks to me as if that could be an early fibreglass front panel ? Could that be right ? When did we first see GRP used in car bodies? In the early 1950s ?I think it was used in boat building in 1942 and a road sports car in the USA in 1950 Bill Tritt ?

Edited by RTH, 19 May 2011 - 17:34.


#9 Paul Parker

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:28

I've just spotted the Swiss flag so perhaps no.4 is Ollan-Villars, not Gaisberg.

#10 Paul Parker

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 14:38

No.14 is obviously a Galaxie and it looks like Pau, might be a Tour de France shot from 1964 perhaps, but beyond that I do not know without cheating.

#11 Dutchy

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 15:15

1. Riley Red Mongrel perhaps? Looks like Freddie Dixon on the left
2. Gordon Brettel's Austin 7 single seater
3. Radford's ex Pows-Lybbe 1926 GP Talbot
4. Borgward
5. MG K3s but I don't know whose. Could one of them be an early version of JHT Smith's single seater?
6. EMW
7. No real idea but there's Brooklands Outer Circuit and Bentley special come to mind - Richard Marker's?
8.
9. Heinkel engined Veritas F2
10. Reg Bicknell's Revis F3
11. An Italian FJ - Taraschi?
12. De Tomaso F1
12a. Obviously a 250F - Peter Collins? Leading an 8 cylinder Gordini

Edited by Dutchy, 19 May 2011 - 15:16.


#12 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 15:17

#9 = Formula 2 race from Avus?

Jesper


#13 David Birchall

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 17:12

1. Riley Red Mongrel perhaps? Looks like Freddie Dixon on the left
2. Gordon Brettel's Austin 7 single seater
3. Radford's ex Pows-Lybbe 1926 GP Talbot
4. Borgward
5. MG K3s but I don't know whose. Could one of them be an early version of JHT Smith's single seater?
6. EMW
7. No real idea but there's Brooklands Outer Circuit and Bentley special come to mind - Richard Marker's?
8.
9. Heinkel engined Veritas F2
10. Reg Bicknell's Revis F3
11. An Italian FJ - Taraschi?
12. De Tomaso F1
12a. Obviously a 250F - Peter Collins? Leading an 8 cylinder Gordini


With regard to #5 I don't think it is JHT Smith's K3-even in its earlier form it was more streamlined-the early body was transferred to K3006 and is/was in Vancouver. This car also has enormous front brakes. Is that Hamilton on the left?

#14 rudi

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 18:01

12A: 1956 Pau GP

During practice
#30 Lucien Barthe DNQ
#12 Anfré Guelfi or André Pilette

#15 uechtel

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 18:02

:up: :up: :up:

No. 6:
Avusrennen 1954, Sports Cars 1.5 litre
#40 Edgar Barth, EMW
#42 Bernhard Cappenberg, Glöckler-Porsche
#43 Günther Schröder, Porsche Special
#31 Kenneth McAlpine, Connaught
#33 (hidden behind Cappenberg) Charles Vögele, Glöckler-Porsche
in the background: #32 Alan Brown, Lotus

No. 9:
Avusrennen 1954, Formula 1
#24 Helmut Niedermayr, Klenk(/Veritas)-Meteor
:love: Lovely picture! :clap:

...and quicker than Rudi Ratlos this time ... :cool:


Edited by uechtel, 19 May 2011 - 18:04.


#16 David McKinney

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 19:09

12A Lucien Barthe in the 250F

And I'm afraid I did think 8 looked very much like Nuvolari - but surely not in a Ferrari of that year?

#17 r.atlos

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 20:59

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One of the lesser known 1957 events: Lenzerheide on 25/08/1957. # 136 is clearly Hans Herrmann, # 137 Giulio Cabianca. With # 139 behind we have Willy Peter Daetwyler in his Maserati 200 SI.

#18 LittleChris

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 21:05

11 looks like Oporto

#19 r.atlos

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 21:10

Posted Image
11

Porto, 24/08/1958, the first FJ race outside Italy at a point in time when the formula was still not officially FIA / CSI approved (this only happened at their October 1958 convention in Paris). Driver is José Manuel Simões but no marque of car has been given in the results I have access to. The car is so bulky that I would suspect an old converted sports car under that body.

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#20 LittleChris

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 21:20

No.14 is obviously a Galaxie and it looks like Pau, might be a Tour de France shot from 1964 perhaps, but beyond that I do not know without cheating.



Definitely Pau, it's the left hander before the right onto the start finish straight - confirmed by looking at Google streetview :D

#21 r.atlos

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 21:20

...and quicker than Rudi Ratlos this time ... :cool:

Just concentrating on my core areas, this time ... :lol: :lol:

#22 ensign14

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 21:26

8 looks like an Alfetta with a weird tail. Is that Farina at the wheel? Seems to be leaning forward though.

#23 RStock

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 21:51

8 looks like an Alfetta with a weird tail. Is that Farina at the wheel? Seems to be leaning forward though.


I think it's a Ferrari 275. Looks like Spa. Don't know who's driving.

#24 uechtel

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 22:07

Just concentrating on my core areas, this time ... :lol: :lol:

Sometimes I think you have core areas everywhere.

#25 LittleChris

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 23:14

8 - I think it's either La Source or perhaps Paradis hairpin leading onto the start finish straight at the original Rouen

#26 T54

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Posted 19 May 2011 - 23:24

Is that not Pat Driscoll in the Austin on picture # 2? :well:

#27 rudi

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 04:51

I think it's a Ferrari 275. Looks like Spa. Don't know who's driving.



Yes, Villoresi during practice, Spa 1950

#28 rudi

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 05:15

Definitely Pau, it's the left hander before the right onto the start finish straight - confirmed by looking at Google streetview :D


Yes. Tour de France 1963.

#29 Paul Parker

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 07:16

Posted Image
4

One of the lesser known 1957 events: Lenzerheide on 25/08/1957. # 136 is clearly Hans Herrmann, # 137 Giulio Cabianca. With # 139 behind we have Willy Peter Daetwyler in his Maserati 200 SI.


Good to know this r.atlos, after my posting I tried looking for some detailed info on mountain hillclimbs of the period but could find very little, indeed being a Brit I had no idea that Lenzerheide had such an event, I always think of it as a holiday destination.

Has anybody written a definitive book on these fascinating events, presumably they have in German and/or French, they really do deserve proper coverage both photographically and textually.

#30 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 08:51

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The style and pullover are similar to Nuvolari. However Nivola didn't race this Ferrari. Its the Double Stage compressor 125 GP. Ascari raced the experimental 275 at Spa.
First I thought it was Dorino Serafini due to the pully, but Villoresi had similar lanky build like Nuvolari. Never seen the H though.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 20 May 2011 - 08:53.


#31 David McKinney

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 09:21

It was the helmet and goggle as much as anything that made me think Nuvolari :)

#32 austinharris

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 09:55

I don't think number 2 is the Brettell car.

The pics below are the Brettell in 1937;
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And as it is now;
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#33 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:12

You're all doing very well so far - some have been nailed - particularly impressed by accurate ID of Lucien Barthe - perhaps the most obscure of contemporary 250F drivers? - and of Simoes in the experimental FJ race at Oporto. The Ferrari shot is indeed rounding La Source at Spa, Ascari's sister car wore the practice ID letter 'G'. I believe the driver is in fact Villoresi - but the image resemblance to Nuvolari is indeed quite striking. The accurate AVUS and Tiefencastel IDs also impress. The Galaxie is indeed in the Pau epreuve of the Tour de France Automobile - what a fabulous event that was! No suggestions for 3 or the driver of 12 then?

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 20 May 2011 - 10:15.


#34 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:41

...or the driver of 12 then?

DCN


Giorgio Scarlatti

#35 Arjan de Roos

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 10:45

Giorgio Scarlatti

Correction: Roberto Lippi at Monza in 1961

#36 David McKinney

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 12:36

You're all doing very well so far - some have been nailed - particularly impressed by accurate ID of Lucien Barthe - perhaps the most obscure of contemporary 250F drivers?

In which case I have to come clean and admit he was identified for us by Barrie Hobkirk ;)


#37 austinharris

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 13:16

More info on number 2 from the Austin 7 friends forum;

HI all! The car was build by Peter Almack for George Abacassis. ( Sorry about spelling of names)

The car as shown was in its final form used Q type MG backplates etc grafted onto austin rear axle and Ballamy split front axle.

Engine was an Ulsterised* Mag engine with Bronze cylinder head similar in shape to the high capacity austin head.

Hopefully the car will be in once piece again soon!



*As in Austin 7 Ulster.

Edited by austinharris, 20 May 2011 - 13:17.


#38 Dutchy

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 13:17

You're all doing very well so far - some have been nailed - particularly impressed by accurate ID of Lucien Barthe - perhaps the most obscure of contemporary 250F drivers? - and of Simoes in the experimental FJ race at Oporto. The Ferrari shot is indeed rounding La Source at Spa, Ascari's sister car wore the practice ID letter 'G'. I believe the driver is in fact Villoresi - but the image resemblance to Nuvolari is indeed quite striking. The accurate AVUS and Tiefencastel IDs also impress. The Galaxie is indeed in the Pau epreuve of the Tour de France Automobile - what a fabulous event that was! No suggestions for 3 or the driver of 12 then?

DCN


Looking at picture 3 again it was clearly taken at Brooklands so I'd suggest it is Anthony Powy-Lybbe in the Talbot


#39 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 14:11

...and some more if you're interested...

Posted Image
9

All Photos Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN


Just learned that there were no such thing as Formula 2 for 1954! Stefan Örnerdal provides the results at http://www.formula2.net/F154_42.htm
A straight 6-BMW would suggest a 2 litre and a Ferrari 500 would be an F2 too, though. Otherwise the race seems to have been a Mercedes-Benz walk-over. The race is named the first Berlin Grand Prix and would likely tell why Avus was selected for the German GP in the future. All of this is speculation, but can anybody confirm this or tell the tale?

Jesper


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#40 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 14:45

2-litre Formula 2 certainly expired at the end of the 1953 season - being replaced at premier-league level by 2 1/2-litre Formula 1. For the Berlin Grand Prix at AVUS in September that year the Klenk-Meteor was confronted by three of these...the result being as close as motor racing may get to being a foregone conclusion. Fangio here finished second to team-mate Karl Kling, a proud German winning on German soil. At Aintree, Fangio had similarly finished second to Moss, a proud Englishman winning on British soil.

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I love this shot by Fred Taylor - that critical moment as the fuel-injected engine has just caught and fired, blasting oil smoke from those cacophonous side exhausts.... As Mr Toad exclaimed: "Oh poop poop!"

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DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 20 May 2011 - 14:47.


#41 rudi

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 17:41

In which case I have to come clean and admit he was identified for us by Barrie Hobkirk ;)


Not at all.

#42 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 18:00

Indeed - Rudi got the edge on Dave/Barrie on this one.

DCN

#43 fbarrett

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 18:43

Number 6 fascinates me: two of the six Gloeckler-Porsches in one photo!

The "coupe" seems to be chassis 10447, the third G-P, which still exists (rebodied), but by 1954 that chassis was already a year into its U.S. sojourn (courtesy of Max Hoffman, John von Neumann, Fred Proctor, et al), so it can't be, can it?

Frank

Edited by fbarrett, 20 May 2011 - 18:44.


#44 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 18:50

2-litre Formula 2 certainly expired at the end of the 1953 season - being replaced at premier-league level by 2 1/2-litre Formula 1. For the Berlin Grand Prix at AVUS in September that year the Klenk-Meteor was confronted by three of these...the result being as close as motor racing may get to being a foregone conclusion. Fangio here finished second to team-mate Karl Kling, a proud German winning on German soil. At Aintree, Fangio had similarly finished second to Moss, a proud Englishman winning on British soil.

Posted Image

I love this shot by Fred Taylor - that critical moment as the fuel-injected engine has just caught and fired, blasting oil smoke from those cacophonous side exhausts.... As Mr Toad exclaimed: "Oh poop poop!"

Photo Strictly Copyright: The GP Library

DCN


Lovely picture there, Doug. Thank you. It depicts the back side of the final banked curve of AVUS, I presume. Heard the sound of a 1930s Alfa Romeo Monza and it's straight 8 at the Classic Race Aarhus in Denmark, and hope your memories of a straight eight Benz are as fond as mine!

Jesper

#45 David McKinney

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 21:20

Indeed - Rudi got the edge on Dave/Barrie on this one.
DCN

Apologies Rudi - I must have missed that somehow :blush:


#46 r.atlos

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 21:46

Has anybody written a definitive book on these fascinating events, presumably they have in German and/or French, they really do deserve proper coverage both photographically and textually.

I agree with you, Paul, the story of the European Hill Climb Championship is a fascinating one but nobody has ever had the idea (or passion) to write up something about its "Golden Years".

#47 Doug Nye

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 21:48

Errr - Frank, I think that what you say is quite possibly probable? :confused:


DCN

#48 r.atlos

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 22:31

Number 6 fascinates me: two of the six Gloeckler-Porsches in one photo!

The "coupe" seems to be chassis 10447, the third G-P, which still exists (rebodied), but by 1954 that chassis was already a year into its U.S. sojourn (courtesy of Max Hoffman, John von Neumann, Fred Proctor, et al), so it can't be, can it?

Frank

No, this "coupé" is not #10447, it is what I would call the "Glöckner N°1": 1950 in the hands of Walter Glöckler, 1951 raced by Kathrein, 1952 by Brendel, 1953 by both Cappenberg and Höftmann and in 1954 mainly by Cappenberg and Niedermayr.

Let's for clarity's sake just quickly recap in the seven Glöcklers:

# 1 - "the Hanomag Special"
# 2 - "Glöckler N° 1" (seen here)
# 3 - "Göckler N° 2" (the 1951 car which went to the US in December 1951)
# 4 - #10447 (the 1952 coupé on a 356 platform, in the US from 1953 onwards)
# 5 - "the Trenkel car" (1952 registered but raced only from 1953 onwards)
# 6 - "the Stanek car" (1953 built and by 1954 in the hands of Charles Vögele - seen here, as well)
# 7 - "the Liège - Rome - Liège car" (1954)

Edited by r.atlos, 20 May 2011 - 22:32.


#49 RStock

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 23:04

Posted Image
8



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That doesn't look like Ascari or Villoresi to me. I can't find any records of him driving that car, but could it be Giovanni Bracco?

and in this one, from the 1951 Targa Florio he seems to be wearing that same type helmet

http://img693.images...951marioraf.jpg

Edited by REDARMYSOJA, 21 May 2011 - 00:21.


#50 LittleChris

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Posted 20 May 2011 - 23:59

That doesn't look like Ascari or Villoresi to me. I can't find any records of him driving that car, but could it be Giovanni Bracco? Here are a couple of photo's of him, in this first one you can see him wearing the same sort of vest as in the photo in question

http://storage.canal...07/18846690.jpg

and in this one, from the 1951 Targa Florio he seems to be wearing that same type helmet

http://img12.imagesh...51scuderiay.jpg



I am unable to see any resemblance to Nuvolari, Ascari or Villoresi and think that , based on the 2nd photo, you may be right Robby ( nose in the first photo differs in my mind from the second so are both pictures of Bracco ?)