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Why are RBR so much faster than everyone else?


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#1 Tstag

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:13

I'm amazed that Mclaren and Ferrari haven't closed the gap yet. The Mclaren looks fast, yet on todays evidence it's still 1 second slower. Why? Where else does the RBR have the speed? The front wing?

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#2 Andy865

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:17

Entire aero package being massively better. Theres no magic bullet.

#3 midgrid

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:20

In addition, this circuit magnifies Red Bull's aerodynamic advantage to perhaps the greatest extent of any on the calendar. Plus the RB7's qualifying advantage has always been greater than its race pace advantage so far this year.

#4 primer

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:22

RBR are not 1 second/lap quicker than the rest in races, though. As for their qualifying pace, I don't think they are 'cheating'. Sniveling Webber would have leaked something to his favorite journalists by now if any skullduggery was going on with the RBR car.

#5 rhukkas

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:23

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#6 F.M.

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:28

RBR are not 1 second/lap quicker than the rest in races, though. As for their qualifying pace, I don't think they are 'cheating'. Sniveling Webber would have leaked something to his favorite journalists by now if any skullduggery was going on with the RBR car.

They are not 1 second/lap quicker in the race because the tyres can't take it imo

#7 karlth

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:37

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Designed the fastest or equal fastest car in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2009, 2010 & 2011. It can't be a coincidence.

Edited by karlth, 21 May 2011 - 13:37.


#8 Andy865

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:38

Designed the fastest or equal fastest car in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 & 2011. It can't be a coincidence.



#9 krapmeister

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:39

Designed the fastest or equal fastest car in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2009, 2010 & 2011. It can't be a coincidence.


Statistical anomaly! :p

#10 spacekid

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:39

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:up:

Beat me to it!! :)

I can' really answer the question more fully than to say the Red Bulls just have more efficient aero, and are ahead of the development curve on a lot of innovations such as blown diffusers cos they invented it and so have a big head start on refining the system. If I remember they have also essentially led the way on the shape of the nose and how it guides air under the car.

Newey leads the way, the rest just try to keep up. And while they are doing that he just makes what was already great even better.

#11 Anomnader

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:40

the DRS in qualifying is certainly helping, this needs to be race only. Why have it in qualifying when its supposed to help overtaking?



#12 abc02

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:41

Designed the fastest or equal fastest car in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2009, 2010 & 2011. It can't be a coincidence.

Don't forget 2005.

It makes me wonder if we'll ever see another aero genius like Newey and Byrne again.

#13 karlth

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:41

the DRS in qualifying is certainly helping ....


Only because the rest of the car produces so much downforce.


#14 krapmeister

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:42

the DRS in qualifying is certainly helping, this needs to be race only. Why have it in qualifying when its supposed to help overtaking?


That's what Webber has been saying all year long...

#15 Professor Arturo

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:42

Designed the fastest or equal fastest car in 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2003, 2009, 2010 & 2011. It can't be a coincidence.


2003? What are you :smoking:?

#16 Anomnader

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:42

Only because the rest of the car produces so much downforce.


Yep, better downforce helps it be faster, but adding the DRS is acting like a multiplier

#17 H2H

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:43

Statistical anomaly! :p


:clap:

#18 SCUDmissile

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:43

well McLaren have had a troubled testing, while Ferrari have had a troubled start to the year. RedBull have done an amazing job, and compounded by Mac and Fer's troubles have had a 'head start' so to speak.

they can be eaten, as Ferrari showed in Hockenhein last year, and McLaren showed in Abu Dhabi 2009, and both showed it in Canada.

#19 Sausage

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:45

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So alien technology then? :)

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#20 King Six

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:45

the DRS in qualifying is certainly helping, this needs to be race only. Why have it in qualifying when its supposed to help overtaking?

Because it mixes things up regarding car setup and race setup, it's theoretically supposed to do so anyway. It also helps with the lap times, without it the qualifying times would be embarrassing and probably at the levels of 90's F1 cars. Certainly not good for image, sponsorship and all that. And for F1 that's everything.

#21 cilurnum

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:46

The worry is that the Renault engine isn't even the most powerful out there, certainly from figures in 2009 from the homologated engines then that we have now.

If Red Bull have their pick of the engines in 2013 then life is going to get even tougher.

#22 cilurnum

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:46

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Goodness knows how much Ferrari offered him. It must have been well in excess of anything Schumacher got.

#23 SCUDmissile

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:47

The worry is that the Renault engine isn't even the most powerful out there, certainly from figures in 2009 from the homologated engines then that we have now.

If Red Bull have their pick of the engines in 2013 then life is going to get even tougher.

but Lotus Renault have very good speed trap speed. is that more down to the less drag?

#24 King Six

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:47

The worry is that the Renault engine isn't even the most powerful out there, certainly from figures in 2009 from the homologated engines then that we have now.

If Red Bull have their pick of the engines in 2013 then life is going to get even tougher.

You'd think if the rules stay as 4 cyl 1.6L Turbo's, Renault would be the manufacturer in best position for this type of engine.

#25 Anomnader

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:47

The worry is that the Renault engine isn't even the most powerful out there, certainly from figures in 2009 from the homologated engines then that we have now.

If Red Bull have their pick of the engines in 2013 then life is going to get even tougher.


Not really, if the renault is down on power it doesn't stop it having other qualities that are better

They had the choice of a more powerful engine, the ferrari one in the torro rosso, but they worked hard to swop due to the preference of the renault.

Edited by Anomnader, 21 May 2011 - 13:49.


#26 revlec

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:49

There is something fishy with their KERS/Engine mapping/suspensions connection/Nose cone/composite materials layer.. well all their car is STRANGE and i will not be surprised if they can achieve some kind of "morphing" at higher speeds... :p :drunk:

Edited by revlec, 21 May 2011 - 13:51.


#27 cilurnum

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:50

but Lotus Renault have very good speed trap speed. is that more down to the less drag?

Combination of things. Drag, running less wing, aerodynamic performance............. There is more to straight line performance than just speed trap figures.

#28 revlec

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:52

do they ever used KERS in Q3 to set the laptimes(pole)?? sorry but i have not watched all the qualy sessions..

#29 cilurnum

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:54

Not really, if the renault is down on power it doesn't stop it having other qualities that are better

All those other qualities are relative though. Uses less fuel? Well, that's because it is less powerful. No brainer there. The difference with having power is you choose when and where to use it and where to save fuel.

They had the choice of a more powerful engine, the ferrari one in the torro rosso, but they worked hard to swop due to the preference of the renault.

Using Ferrari was never going to be an option if they wanted to run at the front of the grid. Were Ferrari really going to give them the best spec engines? Non-starter. At the time Red Bull also didn't know how the homologation would work out.

#30 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 13:56

They are now the best aerodynamically AND mechanically I think. At least last year Ferrari could live with them in the slow speed stuff but this year the entire package is just a monster compared to the rest of the grid. The only reason they aren't as fast in the race is because the pace is 7+ seconds slower than quali so they can't exploit the extra downforce they have.

Edited by RockyRaccoon68, 21 May 2011 - 13:56.


#31 zapppa

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:01

They're cheating :stoned:

#32 Totza

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:02

well McLaren have had a troubled testing, while Ferrari have had a troubled start to the year. RedBull have done an amazing job, and compounded by Mac and Fer's troubles have had a 'head start' so to speak.

they can be eaten, as Ferrari showed in Hockenhein last year, and McLaren showed in Abu Dhabi 2009, and both showed it in Canada.

Mclaren have already beaten them this season :o so yes it is possible, just have to put pressure on them throughout the race and not let them cruise into the distance and be able to look after tyres and win easily, I think the first lap tomorrow is crucial to the outcome of the race.

#33 Ellios

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:05

They are now the best aerodynamically AND mechanically I think. At least last year Ferrari could live with them in the slow speed stuff but this year the entire package is just a monster compared to the rest of the grid. The only reason they aren't as fast in the race is because the pace is 7+ seconds slower than quali so they can't exploit the extra downforce they have.


agreed :up:


and it will propel young Vettel to become a double world champion - youngest ever, it maybe a little boring and even tedious if you are not a Red Bull fan, but can't really knock them for being the best, it's up to the rest to catch them up in the next couple of years

#34 cilurnum

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:05

do they ever used KERS in Q3 to set the laptimes(pole)?? sorry but i have not watched all the qualy sessions..

Vettel certainly didn't. It might have been precautionary because they are so far ahead they could play it safe.

Adding half a second to that time is a bit of an eye opener.

#35 revlec

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 14:14

Vettel certainly didn't. It might have been precautionary because they are so far ahead they could play it safe.

Adding half a second to that time is a bit of an eye opener.


and in China? Malaysia? Turkey? do you know if they were using their KERS during Q3(not the race)??

Edited by revlec, 21 May 2011 - 14:14.


#36 George Costanza

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 16:20

Same reason in 1992 of why was Williams so much faster than anyone else...



#37 SCUDmissile

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:44

Mclaren have already beaten them this season :o so yes it is possible, just have to put pressure on them throughout the race and not let them cruise into the distance and be able to look after tyres and win easily, I think the first lap tomorrow is crucial to the outcome of the race.

that was more down to one bull starting 18th and thwe other on the wrong strategy. but a deserved victory.

but i wasnt because the 26 was better than the RB7, though, but in the scenarios i mentioned, i think the competitiors were slightly better than RB.

#38 race addicted

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:48

With McLaren and Red Bull developing their car non-stop, it wasn't a huge surprise at all to see the gap at one second in Spain, when it's been five tenths previously. Dissapointed though, that McLaren's updates didn't bring them closer (which I think they would've been in reality, had they been able to sustain the four to seven tenths gap it's been before this year.)

#39 King Six

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:53

With McLaren and Red Bull developing their car non-stop, it wasn't a huge surprise at all to see the gap at one second in Spain, when it's been five tenths previously. Dissapointed though, that McLaren's updates didn't bring them closer (which I think they would've been in reality, had they been able to sustain the four to seven tenths gap it's been before this year.)

The truth is the gap never changed or changes. It's all about the track and on the rare occasion, driver errors. Updates never do as much as teams say they do, usually it's corporate talk to please the sponsors and such, maybe give the drivers more confidence.

Ferrari did well at the end of last year, but to get where they were ....Red Bull certainly helped them out with their antics.

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#40 pRy

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:55

When was the last time you saw Vettel or Webber struggling with handling issues? That's the answer.

#41 SCUDmissile

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 17:55

The truth is the gap never changed or changes. It's all about the track and on the rare occasion, driver errors. Updates never do as much as teams say they do, usually it's corporate talk to please the sponsors and such, maybe give the drivers more confidence.

Ferrari did well at the end of last year, but to get where they were ....Red Bull certainly helped them out with their antics.

im sorry but i disagree. Ferrari compare Turkey, then Hockenheim last year. And mcLaren at the start of 09 to Germany 09.

#42 mlsnoopy

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:00

I would like to see a qualifying without the DRS. Just to see how much is the DRS increasing the gap.

#43 ray b

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:14

well as nobody said yet

RED BULL GIVES THEM BETTER [FLEXING] WINGS

#44 glorius&victorius

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:54

because they have some illegal things on the car... people have fallen asleep.

back in australia 2010 we all thought something was wrong with their ride heights.... we spent 100s of post on that subject.. nobody could unravel that mystery... none of the journo's did. people just got tired of "unraveling" ....and then we all got on the "Newey-is-a-genius" train

so we gave up on explaining and resorted to blindly idolizing.

Edited by glorius&victorius, 21 May 2011 - 18:54.


#45 Kubiccia

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:56

Don't forget 2005.

It makes me wonder if we'll ever see another aero genius like Newey and Byrne again.

Byrne is not an aerodynamicist.

Mclaren have already beaten them this season :o so yes it is possible, just have to put pressure on them throughout the race and not let them cruise into the distance and be able to look after tyres and win easily, I think the first lap tomorrow is crucial to the outcome of the race.

pure fluke. Red Bull was faster in qualifying and race and only lost because Mclaren were holding Vettel in first stint and RBR went for the wrong strategy.


As someone else said, Mercedes engine is not only the most powerfull but the best in all other aspects and, with it, the gap to the second team would be even bigger.

RBR is so much better because Neweys is inovative and know why he's doing what he's doing to the car unlike the others who copy separate elements from him.

#46 undersquare

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 18:59

The rake must have something to do with it. That much rake without stalling the flow under the floor.

Also when they did that kerb comparison yesterday it was striking how all the front wings bounced simply up and down except the Red Bull's, which rotated as it bounced.

#47 pingu666

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 19:45

it probably is the underside aero and beam wing (perhaps) as its not the rear wing being better, with drs they have and how early seb can use it

#48 Apollonius

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 20:01

Cheating. Occam's Razor.

Couple that with the FIA's reluctance in enforcing certain rules and it explains the dominance.

#49 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 20:02

the DRS in qualifying is certainly helping, this needs to be race only. Why have it in qualifying when its supposed to help overtaking?


http://forums.autosp...p;#entry5013510

#50 Anomnader

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 20:08

well, I don't think thats much of an explanation, they have 3 testing periods to work out the best gearing and after that like every other part of setup it be down to the teams preferences.