36 replies to this topic

[Flaminiasupersport]

Dear members.

What a day!!!!

I just won this picture on EBAY and I'm really excited about it. I've been collecting "Hawthorn things" since a few years now, ranging from period newspapers to models and prints and many things related, but an original autograph was THE Holy Grail I've been looking for!

Here it is!!! Can anyone shed some light on this? Where? What? Who?... As soon as I have it, I'll make a large scan of it to show the details. Maybe this will help.

Many thanks

Edited by Flaminiasupersport, 25 May 2011 - 12:32.

[alfredaustria]

Dear members.

What a day!!!!

I just won this picture on EBAY and I'm really excited about it. I've been collecting "Hawthorn things" since a few years now, ranging from period newspapers to models and prints and many things related, but an original autograph was THE Holy Grail I've been looking for!

Here it is!!! Can anyone shed some light on this? Where? What? Who?... As soon as I have it, I'll make a large scan of it to show the details. Maybe this will help.

Many thanks

Hi - What have you paid for this photo? I doubt that this is an original (genuine) signature!

[Flaminiasupersport]

Hi - What have you paid for this photo? I doubt that this is an original (genuine) signature!

One can always doubt of course... what makes you think it's not original? I think it's strange when "autographs" all look the same. please give me your thoughts about this.

[Louism]

One can always doubt of course... what makes you think it's not original?

Ebay...

[Giraffe]

I have an ex-client in Manchester who went to jail for selling faked autographed pictures. It was obviously good business judging by his Porsche Turbo and that fact that he's now back in jail once more for the same offence.
This is why I don't possess an autograph that I didn't collect myself.

[Flaminiasupersport]

As I said before, one can always doubt about anything but I don't want to start a useless discussion. "Ebay...." is not really an argument is it?

Has someone any info about this picture?

[Sharman]

Louism

We've got another thread in which a seller on ebay has had aspersions cast(he or she has also been defended) but a few weeks ago my wife sold a book of autographs on ebay. They had been collected in period, the only two of interest to anybody on this forum would, I imagine, be an undecipherable Gordini driver and Phi-Phi Etancelin. My son who sold them on my wife's behalf got an email after the auction had closed offering a considerably enhanced price for the Etancelin autograph which was refused by my son. Ethics do exist. judge not by your own standards.

Edited by Sharman, 25 May 2011 - 13:04.

[Giraffe]

I'm somewhat surprised that you don't have a letter of authenticity along with the photograph as you sound as though you made a reasonable investment in it. Or maybe you do, and you are just trying to confirm what it says?

PS It would appear that the current market price for the genuine article is between £1000 & £1,500.

Edited by Giraffe, 25 May 2011 - 13:31.

[taylov]

Dear members.

What a day!!!!

I just won this picture on EBAY and I'm really excited about it. I've been collecting "Hawthorn things" since a few years now, ranging from period newspapers to models and prints and many things related, but an original autograph was THE Holy Grail I've been looking for!

Here it is!!! Can anyone shed some light on this? Where? What? Who?... As soon as I have it, I'll make a large scan of it to show the details. Maybe this will help.

Many thanks

I share Alfred's concern over this signature - BTW he is a very experienced collector and dealer of F1 autographs.

The "M" of Mike is very atypical of Hawthorn's usual signature, as below. For other examples of Mike's autograph go to http://www.mike-hawt...memorabilia.php

Tony



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Edited by taylov, 25 May 2011 - 13:31.

[alfredaustria]

I share Alfred's concern over this signature - BTW he is a very experienced collector and dealer of F1 autographs.

The "M" of Mike is very atypical of Hawthorn's usual signature, as below.

Tony



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Yes. Thats the point. All my Mike-Hawthorn-autographs look like that above which Tony shows. The "M" is definitely the proof of the fake.

[taylov]

I'm somewhat surprised that you don't have a letter of authenticity along with the photograph as you sound as though you made a reasonable investment in it. Or maybe you do, and you are just trying to confirm what it says?

PS It would appear that the current market price for the genuine article is between £1000 & £1,500.

Giraffe makes another good point. If collectors were convinced by the signature then this photo would not have sold for only 10 - 15% of the market price.

Tony

[Giraffe]

Giraffe makes another good point. If collectors were convinced by the signature then this photo would not have sold for only 10 - 15% of the market price.

Tony

Er quite, my old client was knocking out Marilyn Monroe autographed photos which he told me he "obtained in good faith" for £125......

[Julian Roberts]

It was only last December, as chronicled in the Ebay finds thread, that an Ebayer successfully sold a Jim Clark book signed by Jim after his death !

With ebay I apply the rule that if it's possible to be a con/scam/knock off it very likely will be and bid (or don't) accordingly.

About 10 years ago, when I was new to Ebay and rather green, I bought for £15 (via buy it now) a Bridgestone pamphlet which the Maltese seller had had signed by about 95% of the F1 paddock. Apparently he'd gone to the Barcelona test and sought the signatures himself.

I was thrilled at this coup until a variety of people expressed their doubts - hmmmm why go to all that trouble and flog it for £15 !? It's in a drawer somewhere now with no value ( financial or sentimental) to me at all. Fortunately my Ebay lesson only cost me £15

I genuinely sympathise with the thread starter who's initial joy has very likely been dashed.

[taylov]

Whilst we all have seen some dreadful items on eBay, from time to time there are some hidden gems. However one might have to wait a long time to see another of this quality. A friend bought a stamp/postcard from the 1939 Yugoslav GP (1.9.39) - a bit like a First day Cover - from a USA stamp dealer for a few dollars. When it arrived it had Tazio Nuvolari's signature on the back !!!

Tony

[Sharman]

I'm somewhat surprised that you don't have a letter of authenticity along with the photograph as you sound as though you made a reasonable investment in it. Or maybe you do, and you are just trying to confirm what it says?

PS It would appear that the current market price for the genuine article is between £1000 & £1,500.

Tony, are you sure about those values? Reason I ask is that I have signed (in pencil) framed photographs of Fangio, Moss, Brooks & Collins(in the Mercs at Oulton), Collins, Trintignant, Rosier, Gerard, Salvadori, Schell, Behra and Fairman. All of impeccable provenance but I had never thought them to be so valuable.
John

[Julian Roberts]

Whilst we all have seen some dreadful items on eBay, from time to time there are some hidden gems. However one might have to wait a long time to see another of this quality. A friend bought a stamp/postcard from the 1939 Yugoslav GP (1.9.39) - a bit like a First day Cover - from a USA stamp dealer for a few dollars. When it arrived it had Tazio Nuvolari's signature on the back !!!

Tony

Talking of hidden gems, an Ebay buyer almost received a hidden gem from me a few years ago.

At the time I was out of work having recently been made redundant and I was trying to make a go of being a motor racing book seller. My M.O. was to I was buy 'lots' of books at auction and sell them individually on Ebay. One of the habits I got into was to study the condition of the book in some detail, as sought after book buyers are (quite rightly) incredibly fussy ! So, I had just photographed Heinz Pruller's Jochen Rindt book and was flicking through to make sure there were no tears or creases etc, when out fluttered a hand written letter from Jochen to 'Charlie' thanking him for the party and apologising for being unable to attend his forthcoming wedding as he had to go to a stock car race in America with Jimmy Clark ! The note paper was very extremely good quality, hand made with the makers watermark and the address in Paris checked out for 1967, it was definitely genuine.

I wrestled with my conscience for days, but I needed to earn some money, so I sold it. It went to an autograph collector in Sweden. At least I have a good quality scan of the letter as a momento of a great driver and an incredibly lucky find. The book sold quite sell too

Edited by Julian Roberts, 25 May 2011 - 15:12.

[tonyb]

I'd go along with this sig being very doubtful. I've access to over 25 original signed JMH items and in none does the christian name look like this. It could just be an off day of course (he did drink after all) but ..

This one shown below had a job selling a while back and was listed several times before it did - I suspect might even be signed by the same person as possibly created the one in question? Very atypical 'M' as already remarked.



Both of these have sold at prices much lower than one would expect (the one above was a signed book at UKP180 and the original poster here paid UKP165 ) - most reach UKP400-500 or higher depending on provenance and exactly what is it is you are buying. The most I ever paid was £1550 but that was exceptional and was for a multi-page personal letter to his family. There is another (160496773818) on eBay currently showing the 1955 D-type on a signed postcard and while it looks genuine, personally I think it's way over overpriced by about 300%.

People have even been known to try to sell original signed copies of 'Champion Year '. I have one here with an original signature of Mike's - but then every copy of it does as it's litho printed on the page! Plus of course, Mike died before it was published.

I think if anyone else is at all doubtful, they ought to post here and get some opinions.

[Giraffe]

Tony, are you sure about those values?

They are not a KVI (known value item), but pics with good provenance & historical interest have sold at auction in that range. If someone's in the house that desperately wants them.....

[Flaminiasupersport]

I guess it's impossible to know if original or not. Even my own signature differs a lot from time to time.

There must be many "butchered" autographs of Hawthorn around when he signed them quickly alongside the race track for his fans or afterwards when he had a few pints of beer!

Whatever the "story that comes with it" might be or even if it's accompanied by a "letter of authenticity" (who wrote it?) ... it's only there to "blow some of the mist away" as the only proof that a signature is a genuine one would be if signed in front of you!

So this discussion is endless... The "auction price" was not astronomical either and I asked the seller for "info" ( for whatever that's worth something )

But the real question remains unanswered! Where was this picture taken? What event? Who's the man handing over the prize to Hawthorn? etc etc...

Edited by Flaminiasupersport, 25 May 2011 - 16:35.

[JtP1]

I have a gallon fuel can somewhere in the back of the garage. It was given to a friend, a young attractive blonde lady at the time, back in the 50s after she ran out of petrol. He stopped and gave her the can full of petrol. The can and story obviously cannot be verified. So that's life.

[D-Type]

Let's ignore the provenance question for a while and try to answer the original question:

Who? What? When? Where?

[tonyb]

Let's ignore the provenance question for a while and try to answer the original question:

Who? What? When? Where?

I've had a trawl though the 1800+ photos of Mike that I've accumulated but can't find anything that matches the people other than Mike in this photo. The trophy also fails to appear in any of the photo records I have but since many of his trophies were destroyed by Mrs Hawthorn after Mike's death they have been lost forever (although since Golden Boy was published I've discovered from one who was involved that not all the trophies and other items being transported from the garage and elsewhere actually got to Mrs Hawthorn at Green Fields in Farnham! Some were 'rescued' en-route and are now in the museum. I'll have a look in the Mike Hawthorn Museum next week while doing some photography just to see if there's anything there that I don't have at home here that could help.



One could reasonably surmise that since the back of the photo says 'Hawthorn (Ferrari)' that this relates to a win for Mike while driving a Ferrari and that the people there look typically British (well, to me anyway). Mike also looks on the younger side. Don't know what the 'Hawthorn (Li?)' indicates.

I've tried to match the elderly gentleman (a club/organiser official?) shaking hands with Mike to other similar photos but no luck. Maybe if Doug Nye is around he might recognise him?

Another signed JMH photo has just appeared on eBay - the seller must have read Tony's post since he's asking £1,890 !! I'd personally need a cast-iron provenance letter signed by Mike himself stating it's genuine at that price.



The sig looks okay to me (but that's no guarantee).

Edited by tonyb, 26 May 2011 - 10:00.

[Flaminiasupersport]

Well dear members, the seller was very friendly. He cancelled the transaction, made a full refund and I can only appreciate his gesture. Even if I have a mixed feeling...

I'm convinced it could have sold for a lot more if it ended on a sunday evening instead of somewhere around noon in a working week. When I saw that auction ending, the 11 bidders, the silly hour the auction was ending, I made a bid, convinced I'd be outbid in the last seconds when the battle brakes loose. He sold a Peter Collins autograph for double the price I payed for the Hawthorn signature. So everything looked right and the seller is also, as his reaction shows, very serious and reliable. I guess someone else will make a deal on this picture... Are all his autographs "fakes"? I doubt it.

This particular picture was part of a collection that was bought in Germany a few years ago. One can always doubt about everything... but signatures that all look "the same" in a certain way are also very strange isn't it?

Edited by Flaminiasupersport, 26 May 2011 - 09:54.

[tonyb]

Having mentioned the Mike Hawthorn Museum, some of you may a chance to visit this in July.

The museum is a private venture but there are two invitation-only open days coming up soon specifically for members of two Clubs:

Sat 9th July: Brooklands Trust Members - Mike Hawthorn Run
Details and a booking form here.

Sun 10th July: Goodwood Road Racing Club visit
I am a GRRC member but haven't seen any details yet from them so I guess they'll be sending something soon. Make sure you see their info before attempting a visit as there are likely to be conditions (like a limit on visitor numbers!).

Both events run from ca 11:30 - 14:30. I believe Neville Hay is giving a talk on at least one day. Mike Hawthorn's former girlfriend from the mid-1950s, Dorrie Aldred Parker, will be there (she is the one who regularly leaves flowers on Mike's grave signed by 'D'! Brian Taylor who worked at the TT Garage back in the 1950s will also be there and he knew and saw Mike most days, plus loads of Hawthorn fans including Nigel Webb who created and runs the museum, myself and Paul Skilleter. There is a presentation that runs most of the day on a large screen with every piece of film we've managed to trace of Mike. Plus of course, all the cars and exhibits. Plenty of free car parking available (Jaguars are preferred but other marques will be tolerated!).

There is info and pics on the Mike Hawthorn Museum here

[tonyb]

Well dear members, the seller was very friendly. He cancelled the transaction, made a full refund and I can only appreciate his gesture. Even if I have a mixed feeling...

I'm convinced it could have sold for a lot more if it ended on a sunday evening instead of somewhere around noon in a working week. When I saw that auction ending, the 11 bidders, the silly hour the auction was ending, I made a bid, convinced I'd be outbid in the last seconds when the battle brakes loose. He sold a Peter Collins autograph for double the price I payed for the Hawthorn signature. So everything looked right and the seller is also, as his reaction shows, very serious and reliable. I guess someone else will make a deal on this picture... Are all his autographs "fakes"? I doubt it.

This particular picture was part of a collection that was bought in Germany a few years ago. One can always doubt about everything... but signatures that all look "the same" in a certain way are also very strange isn't it?

I think that was a very sensible thing to do - in view of the doubts cast here and those you must have been having as a result, you won't have to worry about it now. Other opportunities will arise.

[alfredaustria]

Well dear members, the seller was very friendly. He cancelled the transaction, made a full refund and I can only appreciate his gesture. Even if I have a mixed feeling...

I'm convinced it could have sold for a lot more if it ended on a sunday evening instead of somewhere around noon in a working week. When I saw that auction ending, the 11 bidders, the silly hour the auction was ending, I made a bid, convinced I'd be outbid in the last seconds when the battle brakes loose. He sold a Peter Collins autograph for double the price I payed for the Hawthorn signature. So everything looked right and the seller is also, as his reaction shows, very serious and reliable. I guess someone else will make a deal on this picture... Are all his autographs "fakes"? I doubt it.

This particular picture was part of a collection that was bought in Germany a few years ago. One can always doubt about everything... but signatures that all look "the same" in a certain way are also very strange isn't it?

Fair enough.
Each signature looks a bit different. But some very important things must always be equal. For example: Where do you start your signature? The first line is always in the same direction. And not once up and then down. But this is the case in the Hawthorn-signature which you bought on ebay. And therefore I have no doubt that this is a fake.
For sure you have to be very careful buying autographs on ebay. It is always important to know the history of the autograph: Who got it where?
I wish you all the best and good luck in autograph-collecting.
Alfred

[Paul Parker]

Well dear members, the seller was very friendly. He cancelled the transaction, made a full refund and I can only appreciate his gesture. Even if I have a mixed feeling...

I'm convinced it could have sold for a lot more if it ended on a sunday evening instead of somewhere around noon in a working week. When I saw that auction ending, the 11 bidders, the silly hour the auction was ending, I made a bid, convinced I'd be outbid in the last seconds when the battle brakes loose. He sold a Peter Collins autograph for double the price I payed for the Hawthorn signature. So everything looked right and the seller is also, as his reaction shows, very serious and reliable. I guess someone else will make a deal on this picture... Are all his autographs "fakes"? I doubt it.

This particular picture was part of a collection that was bought in Germany a few years ago. One can always doubt about everything... but signatures that all look "the same" in a certain way are also very strange isn't it?

Nevertheless it's a disappointment for you which is a pity.

As an aside I knew somebody decades ago who was adept at forging signatures and she told me that the best way of doing it freehand was to turn a sample signature upside down then draw the shape on the photo/document/letter you wanted to pass off. This was apparently so that your brain, which will automatically write letters in the way it has become used to even when you are trying to copy somebody else's writing, is no longer in writing mode rather you are simply copying a shape.

[David McKinney]

Thanks for the tip, Paul

[tonyb]

Thanks for the tip, Paul

Yep, expect to see dozens of hard to spot forgeries on eBay now as result of this expert public tip!

[Flaminiasupersport]

Having mentioned the Mike Hawthorn Museum, some of you may a chance to visit this in July.

The museum is a private venture but there are two invitation-only open days coming up soon specifically for members of two Clubs:

Sat 9th July: Brooklands Trust Members - Mike Hawthorn Run
Details and a booking form here.

Sun 10th July: Goodwood Road Racing Club visit
I am a GRRC member but haven't seen any details yet from them so I guess they'll be sending something soon. Make sure you see their info before attempting a visit as there are likely to be conditions (like a limit on visitor numbers!).

Both events run from ca 11:30 - 14:30. I believe Neville Hay is giving a talk on at least one day. Mike Hawthorn's former girlfriend from the mid-1950s, Dorrie Aldred Parker, will be there (she is the one who regularly leaves flowers on Mike's grave signed by 'D'! Brian Taylor who worked at the TT Garage back in the 1950s will also be there and he knew and saw Mike most days, plus loads of Hawthorn fans including Nigel Webb who created and runs the museum, myself and Paul Skilleter. There is a presentation that runs most of the day on a large screen with every piece of film we've managed to trace of Mike. Plus of course, all the cars and exhibits. Plenty of free car parking available (Jaguars are preferred but other marques will be tolerated!).

There is info and pics on the Mike Hawthorn Museum here

Thanks for your message. Maybe one day I'll find a "better" signature!

On your phrase here above "(Jaguars are preferred but other marques will be tolerated!)" my Lancia passion forces me to react most vividly...

LANCIA, and especially the Aurelia, must be preferred above all others, as both father and son owned these cars privately. Will the lightning kill me if I say that Jags were (if I add "merely" I'll be killed for sure) "company cars" and the Lancia the car of his personal choice? Considering the fact his father killed himself in a B20, the Hawthorn's and Mike particularly REALLY must have loved these cars.. (The Museum should have a B20! Mike loved the B20 for obvious reasons because the B20... oh my God... the sky is darkening.. and I feel suddenly very lonely with my little Lancia-spear surrounded by big fat Jaguars...) (just a tease from a Lancia-man... )
"

Edited by Flaminiasupersport, 26 May 2011 - 12:35.

[Flaminiasupersport]

Yep, expect to see dozens of hard to spot forgeries on eBay now as result of this expert public tip!

haha...;) and there are already some on Ebay at the moment we're writing this!

I hope to visit the Museum soon with some carfreak friends during summer!

Edited by Flaminiasupersport, 26 May 2011 - 12:32.

[Allan Lupton]

Anent Lancia as the car of choice, I think remember someone telling me of driving home from Goodwood in the early 1950s having difficulty keeping up with an enthusiastically-driven Aprilia. Eventually saw it was Mike H. at the wheel as he turned into the family home at Farnham, so felt less embarrassed about not keeping up.
Might just have read it somewhere of course.

[tonyb]

my Lancia passion forces me to react most vividly. The Museum should have a B20! ...

Thank you - donations of other relevant marques from fans are always welcome and the Museum accepts your kind and benevolent offer and awaits your gift of a suitably connected Lancia with much anticipation.

Edited by tonyb, 26 May 2011 - 13:39.

[Paul Parker]

Yep, expect to see dozens of hard to spot forgeries on eBay now as result of this expert public tip!

I've always thought that it is adviseable for everyone to know the tricks, a little bit of caution goes a long way, so caveat emptor.

[Tuboscocca]

One could reasonably surmise that since the back of the photo says 'Hawthorn (Ferrari)' that this relates to a win for Mike while driving a Ferrari and that the people there look typically British (well, to me anyway). Mike also looks on the younger side. Don't know what the 'Hawthorn (Li?)' indicates.

tonyb,

as the photo comes from Germany, Li is LINKS (left). Hawthorn in the picture is on the left...

Regards Michael

[taylov]

Here's another "Mike Hawthorn" signed photo that sold on eBay in the last few days - same seller as the one discussed above. Perhaps not so clear cut.

Tony


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[taylov]

This autograph is up for sale on the Bay

 

http://www.ebay.co.u...AMAAOSwEK9T4X3h

 

I have my doubts - not typical.  I'd welome any other collectors' views.

 

Tony