Jump to content


Photo

Has F1 outgrown Monaco?


  • Please log in to reply
101 replies to this topic

Poll: Has F1 outgrown Monaco? (294 member(s) have cast votes)

Has F1 outgrown Monaco?

  1. Yes (74 votes [25.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.17%

  2. No (220 votes [74.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 74.83%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 10,158 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:03

Monaco is an extreme circuit, so successful overtaking requires extremes from both drivers: the overtaker can only realistically get past by dive-bombing and the overtakee must provide more room than he would on other circuits to prevent a crash. It's a practical example of the "I'm going through or we're crashing" mentality that is often lauded on the BB.

Now that we've seen this applied practically, the board is split into the pro-Hamilton and anti-Hamilton stances regarding his moves, as well as for the drivers he was overtaking. Hamilton/Schumacher were praised for their moves on each other, only because they provided room for each other.

But it goes further: even on the Pirellis with differences of 20/40 laps in tyre wear, drivers still cannot get past others. And when they do, the odds of a successful pass is low and if it goes wrong, a penalty will be applied. So it is worth going for it?

With stewarding as it is and the total absence of the application "racing incident" in their decision-making, is there still a place for Monaco in F1?

Edited by Disgrace, 30 May 2011 - 17:18.


Advertisement

#2 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,947 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:05

before i thought yes. but after yesterday, imo no. it was the best race of the year, imo, as all the passes made were great passes that the drivers had to work for. if we werent deprived of a greta finish, maybe people would say it was as good as Shanghai.

#3 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,441 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:06

F1 outgrew Monaco over 30 years ago. Watching the cars blast round the circuit is spectacular, but is it really racing when there is no realistic overtaking oppurtunities?

#4 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:06

Definitely not. Heck, they already raced bigger, wider and more powerful turbo cars there.

#5 Reverend

Reverend
  • Member

  • 278 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:06

Put a pole. Imo it was the worst race of the season. Only in Monaco could a leader carry on for 40+ laps without being overtaken. Is this not what people complained against?

#6 RedBaron

RedBaron
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: March 01

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:08

No, amazing race, amazing place. Seeing the cars speed around the circuit rubbing up against the barrier for 78 laps battling hard is absolutely edge of the seat stuff.

#7 fastlegs

fastlegs
  • Member

  • 1,956 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:08

Has F1 outgrown Monaco?

Absolutely NOT.

If you were to ask the drivers they would tell you the same thing. They love racing here.

#8 ImDDAA

ImDDAA
  • Member

  • 3,226 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:09

Monaco doesn't support people racing each other, it's fantastic for qualifying sessions though.

#9 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Writer of 2013's Best Opening Post

  • 7,066 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:10

Not really.. I don't particularly care for Monaco as a race. It's one of those circuits, like Silverstone, that people love because it's been around for so long, but would hate if added brand new, without the history, for this season. I don't think F1's outgrown Monaco, but if it was lost and replaced, the new circuit would almost certainly provide better racing.

#10 Diablobb81

Diablobb81
  • Member

  • 3,556 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:12

Great circuit. Keep it.

#11 lewymp4

lewymp4
  • Member

  • 521 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:17

Nooooo.......Watching the cars going through the swimming pool area, is a good enough reason for the race to remain on the F1 calendar.

#12 Brandz07

Brandz07
  • Member

  • 3,192 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:17

Just do a qualifying session :p

#13 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:18

Even if we take the succesful/unsuccesful passing moves out of the equation, yesterday was still a great race.
The top three ended up on 1-stop, 2-stop and 3-stop races and finished within 2 seconds of each other.

We are not privy to what is said in the driver briefings but I fully agree that nearly all of successful passes (where there was no contact) that we did see were very much dependent on the defending driver being very cooperative and were moves that would not be tried on other circuits. Sometimes a move just isn't on and the driver who wants to overtake just has to accept that.

#14 exmayol

exmayol
  • Member

  • 554 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:19

If we had 20 Monaco GP that would be too much but single one fits into the calendar nicely. We need more tracks that are different and places like Monaco and old Hockenheimring provide exactly that.

#15 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 10,158 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:19

Poll added. :)

Absolutely NOT.

If you were to ask the drivers they would tell you the same thing. They love racing here.


That's true, so why does the FIA feel the need to add neutered "street circuits" such as Valencia with endless runoff rather than slower-speed proper street circuits such as this and, for the most part, Singapore?

Edited by Disgrace, 30 May 2011 - 17:25.


#16 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 2,296 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:27

Has F1 outgrown Monaco?

As a real "racing" circuit definitely.

But the track still works as a contrived entertainment venue for the rich, which is all it really needs to be.

#17 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 14,104 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:29

Of course not. Removing it from the calendar would be senseless destruction.

#18 SCUDmissile

SCUDmissile
  • Member

  • 3,947 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:29

If we had 20 Monaco GP that would be too much but single one fits into the calendar nicely. We need more tracks that are different and places like Monaco and old Hockenheimring provide exactly that.

i agree. that along with Monza and Montreal and Melbourne bring somethign different. now all you see are these Hairpin Tilke tracks, all predictable, and where aero is needed.

#19 R2D2

R2D2
  • Member

  • 780 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:30

I think the track is fine. But perhaps certain drivers have forgotten how to do real, tight wheel-to-wheel racing because they're too used to processional races. Maybe the FIA needs a kick from FOTA (via the fans forums?) to start working out what are actually racing incidents. The possibility of punishing the defending driver wouldn't go amiss.

It's a shame that having a solitary steward with proper racing experience hasn't been a panacea -- if he's out-numbered by pen-pushers who just happen to have an FIA rubber stamp then all the common sense and integrity in the world isn't going to help.

Advertisement

#20 Augurk

Augurk
  • Member

  • 1,932 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:32

Monaco doesn't support people racing each other, it's fantastic for qualifying sessions though.

Dito. It's a very challenging track to negotiate, let alone master. That's why it's so great for time trials and drivers love it.

For racing tho it's just too tight. However with a side note: every once and again it works out for someone who normally wouldn't win. Then it's good for adding that. Yesterday however it really worked against excitement: the race itself was pretty sweet in excitement, yet it killed a race where finally the dominant guy shouldn't have won and yet let him win again. Unfortunate but true.

As you can see I'm pretty much undecided on the question :smoking:

#21 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 9,953 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:33

I'd like to see F1 at the Norisring for once.

#22 fastlegs

fastlegs
  • Member

  • 1,956 posts
  • Joined: April 02

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:38

Poll added. :)

That's true, so why does the FIA feel the need to add neutered "street circuits" such as Valencia with endless runoff rather than slower-speed proper street circuits such as this and, for the most part, Singapore?


That's not the question here.

The other street circuits are another matter entirely and should be debated separately.

#23 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:41

F1 hasn't outgrown Monaco, it's just that the talent pool is so bad that some people don't know when they must cooperate.

#24 highdownforce

highdownforce
  • Member

  • 3,678 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:45

Definitely not. Heck, they already raced bigger, wider and more powerful turbo cars there.

QFT

The day a F1 car becomes unable to race at Monaco then it's not F1 anymore.

Edited by highdownforce, 30 May 2011 - 17:50.


#25 jonnoj

jonnoj
  • Member

  • 1,114 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:46

All the time the drivers want to race there, why should F1 leave Monaco? It's the one race that every driver wants to win, they know it's track that requires 100% out of them for the whole race, it's not a gimme, like so many other tracks. If a team has a driver who's better than the car, it's an opportunity for them to shine. It also shows up the likes of Jaime Alguersuari, who's well out of his depth in F1.

The track is no more dangerous than any of the others in the season. If an accident occurs, the marshalls have shown themselves to be possibly the best in the world, not only quick to remove the cars, but brave too.



#26 Gyan

Gyan
  • Member

  • 842 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:49

No. It's a historical track and I feel the season would be incomplete if it wasn't used.

#27 Dino G

Dino G
  • Member

  • 523 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 30 May 2011 - 17:54

Yes.

They must find a way to alter the track. You want to keep the hairpin? Fine. The tunnel? Sure. Everything else has to be revisited. The Mirabeaus are fine but maybe St. devote can be widened to encourage racing. There were times where drivers had a run but Ste. Devote was impossibly tight. Get rid of the stupid hump at the first timing sector. If that section was flat there may have been a pass there. Make it straighter leading to the swimming pool and make the swimming pool tigher to encourage overtaking.

People want this processional race and I understand the history, beleive me, I do. But the track has been altered in the past and it is time to do it again.

#28 Hippo

Hippo
  • Member

  • 2,378 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 30 May 2011 - 18:02

It depends on what you want to see.

The racing is as boring as watching Singapore is. Maybe even worse. The cars are too fast, the track too narrow and most drivers, stewards and viewers don't know what proper racing is anymore.

If you like to see celebrities, royals, boats and spectacular crashes, then Monaco is irreplaceable.

#29 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 14,104 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 May 2011 - 18:06

People want this processional race and I understand the history, beleive me, I do. But the track has been altered in the past and it is time to do it again.


Other than the new chicane in 1986, weren't most of the other track alterations to do with reacting to property developments, and building a separate pitlane?

Incidentally, here's some Youtube footage (at 0.40) of the one-off 'backwards' chicane used for the 1972 race. Don't think I've ever seen it before. Certainly Perez's accident wouldn't have been so nasty if it still went like this, no idea if the roads still allow it.

Edited by Risil, 30 May 2011 - 18:07.


#30 F1Champion

F1Champion
  • Member

  • 2,925 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 30 May 2011 - 18:24

I think that they should get rid of the T1 kerb and open up the T1 entry to allow a little more attacking up the line, it poses an issue for the pit exit though.

#31 wingwalker

wingwalker
  • Member

  • 6,332 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 30 May 2011 - 18:27

Yes, dozens of years ago. Not a reason to ditch the track, though.

#32 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 11,663 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:06

Yes, dozens of years ago. Not a reason to ditch the track, though.

Agreed, except I would have ditched it years ago. It is a joke. Why don't they just have a schmoozing weekend in Monte Carlo for all the sponsors and hangers-on wothout the distraction of a motor race?

#33 mlsnoopy

mlsnoopy
  • Member

  • 2,356 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:14

Maybe Monaco should reclaim some land and add a straight or 2 somewhere.

#34 King Six

King Six
  • Member

  • 3,230 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:16

F1 is much slower than it was before, and will only continue to get slower. They're just freak accidents, F1 has been faster and more dangerous than it is right now but nobody complained then.

#35 John Player

John Player
  • Member

  • 445 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:17

No.

F1 without Monaco is not F1

#36 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 14,104 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:20

F1 is much slower than it was before, and will only continue to get slower. They're just freak accidents, F1 has been faster and more dangerous than it is right now but nobody complained then.


Quite. Well, except for your statement that no one complained. ;)

Edited by Risil, 30 May 2011 - 19:20.


#37 olliek88

olliek88
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:20

No, its unique, one of a kind and to sit and watch the cars at track side is amazing, its a real challenge for the drivers, if they make a mistake, bam, game over.

Being able to get so close to these cars is a rare thing, as much as i love going to silverstone on my yearly pilgrimage, going to monaco and the whole experience is incredible. Some of the incidents that happened yesterday were simply down to faster and slower cars being out of place because of safety cars and penalties.

#38 rabbitleader

rabbitleader
  • Member

  • 1,032 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:22

Unsafe,

Processional race even with DRS and flakey tyres unless cars are allowed to have a go at overtaking without fear of FIA penalties.

Random wins when safety car is deployed....Button deserved to win that race!

Perhaps a race but not WITH any WDC/WCC points????

Edited by rabbitleader, 30 May 2011 - 19:27.


#39 rr0cket

rr0cket
  • Member

  • 75 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:24

Not really, to me Monaco is a different game all together, it's purely a war of attrition. I find it plenty exciting once things loosen up and the visuals speak for themselves. Some people just don't have the patience.

Advertisement

#40 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 961 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:26

The cars outgrew the streets years ago, but the track should be absolutely kept on the calendar - there've been races here, on the same route, since 1929. Brings a history to the calendar that no other circuit can match, so the cars still racing there despite having outgrown the track is part of the charm. There is also the fantastic challenge if racing inches from the barriers for almost two hours; F1 is supposed to be difficult, and at Monte Carlo it is difficult. Best race on the calendar imo.

#41 Hippo

Hippo
  • Member

  • 2,378 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:38

F1 is much slower than it was before, and will only continue to get slower.

Hm, on German TV the commentators claimed that Vettel's qualifying lap was the second fastest that ever was achieved in Monaco (the fastest one being by Räikkönnen in 2005 I guess). I didn't bother to check if that is true. Yet the cars are bloody fast, especially in the turns.

#42 Jamiednm

Jamiednm
  • Member

  • 1,626 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:49


Qualifying at Monaco is brilliant but I'm always glad when the race is done because it isn't a place to race. It doesn't allow proper F1 racing, the circuit is too small and tight for the worlds fastest circuit cars.

Ideally, I would have Monaco as a special stage qualy/time trial sort of event. I wouldn't miss the actual race but it is an integral part of Formula 1.

#43 sephiroth

sephiroth
  • Member

  • 461 posts
  • Joined: March 04

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:56

IMO completely. Monaco needs revision not because of the spectacle but because of safety. Perez and Petrov in the hospital says it a lot more than any amount of exciting racing.

#44 skid solo

skid solo
  • Member

  • 2,208 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 30 May 2011 - 19:57

I think the track is fine. But perhaps certain drivers have forgotten how to do real, tight wheel-to-wheel racing because they're too used to processional races. Maybe the FIA needs a kick from FOTA (via the fans forums?) to start working out what are actually racing incidents. The possibility of punishing the defending driver wouldn't go amiss.

It's a shame that having a solitary steward with proper racing experience hasn't been a panacea -- if he's out-numbered by pen-pushers who just happen to have an FIA rubber stamp then all the common sense and integrity in the world isn't going to help.


+ 1 :up:

#45 SeanValen

SeanValen
  • Member

  • 16,933 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 30 May 2011 - 20:03

It's the constant precision and cost of a mistake, especially before qualifying or friday,, knowing there is no T car, the driver and team are preying together to keep it all together in the lead up to the race. It's quite a suspenseful race, when you got all those gizmos, and car acceleration in small confines, it is absolutely a unique challenge, a f1 season needs different challenges.


Qualifying at Monaco is brilliant but I'm always glad when the race is done because it isn't a place to race. It doesn't allow proper F1 racing, the circuit is too small and tight for the worlds fastest circuit cars.


But that's what others love about it,

The Barcelona track rarely allowed chances for races with aero ridden cars over the years, this year a improvement, but Monaco is such, with such low speeds in certain corners, it actually takes away the aero need in certain corners and it becomes about merchanical grip also, with drivers trying to find the smallest of gaps. Once a year is enough, but without it, you lose a unique challenge and something fans and causal viewers tune into, it's box office for all concerned.

Edited by SeanValen, 30 May 2011 - 20:08.


#46 F1 Tor.

F1 Tor.
  • Member

  • 2,832 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 30 May 2011 - 20:34

Bring back the lamp posts and we're good.  ;) It's incredibly unique and that stands for a lot these days.

#47 midgrid

midgrid
  • Member

  • 4,790 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 30 May 2011 - 22:07

A prize for the person who can find the earliest reference to "the cars have outgrown the circuit" at Monaco. I have seen this phrase used in 1970s reports, but I suspect the attitude may have existed even earlier.

#48 Fastcake

Fastcake
  • Member

  • 6,250 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 22:55

Oh god yes F1 outgrew Monaco decades back. However that's why we love it. An almost impossible mix of tight corners, the hardest hairpin you can find, no real straights, the whole tunnel challenge and barriers fractions away from the cars. It's insane and would be laughed out of the world if someone proposed it today, but no only is it a fantastic link to the past but amazing viewing :)

#49 Lee Nicolle

Lee Nicolle
  • Member

  • 6,024 posts
  • Joined: July 08

Posted 30 May 2011 - 23:10

F1 outgrew Monaco with the advent of rear engine cars.
Really the place should not have a track liscence for karts yet alone F1. To narrow, no run off, no service access PLUS the stupid 20 lap tyres makes the place a 1 line groove. That is how Massa got into the tunnel wall, Hamilton pushed him out there[after driving off track to go inside and through him] and the marbles took him out.
Really lets have Motor sport on proper venues instead of these half assed street circuits. And Monaco is by far the worst.

#50 tremolo

tremolo
  • Member

  • 86 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 30 May 2011 - 23:27

The fact that it's possibly the most inappropriate & ill-suited stretch of road on earth for hurling a 750hp racing car is the very reason it's so awesome & should never be removed.