43 replies to this topic

[Arthur]

Go to this website www.handh.co.uk and view PRIVATE SALES You will find an Ex Hailwood Honda 297cc 6 cylinder for sale reputed to be 1 of only 2 in existance the other being at Honda's museum. Any one know the history of it and how it came to be in private ownership. What value? bet its near£500k

[RS250]

Go to this website www.handh.co.uk and view PRIVATE SALES You will find an Ex Hailwood Honda 297cc 6 cylinder for sale reputed to be 1 of only 2 in existance the other being at Honda's museum. Any one know the history of it and how it came to be in private ownership. What value? bet its near£500k

Quite correct, but this is the only 'running' one. The Honda museum bike has suffered from non use and will need considerable work to make it into even a runner.
This actual bike was reverse engineered to produce a run of six officially sanctioned 'replicas' which (very) rapidly sold out - even at a price of (IIRC) £250k. It was felt at the time that a considerably higher number could have been sold.
The value of this bike? If it were £500k there would be a queue around several blocks - I would estimate the starting point to be several million. Remember it is the only one that will ever be available and has an unquestionable provenance. Think of Hailwood and you automatically think of the iconic Honda 6.
Now think what it would be worth if it were a comparable, unique F1 car; say a genuine Jim Clark Lotus 49?
Lets just hope the new owner doesn't squirrel it away and brings it to Goodwood or Mallory so we can hear it run.
No, I don't work for H&H!!

[tonyed]

Quite correct, but this is the only 'running' one. The Honda museum bike has suffered from non use and will need considerable work to make it into even a runner.
This actual bike was reverse engineered to produce a run of six officially sanctioned 'replicas' which (very) rapidly sold out - even at a price of (IIRC) £250k. It was felt at the time that a considerably higher number could have been sold.
The value of this bike? If it were £500k there would be a queue around several blocks - I would estimate the starting point to be several million. Remember it is the only one that will ever be available and has an unquestionable provenance. Think of Hailwood and you automatically think of the iconic Honda 6.
Now think what it would be worth if it were a comparable, unique F1 car; say a genuine Jim Clark Lotus 49?
Lets just hope the new owner doesn't squirrel it away and brings it to Goodwood or Mallory so we can hear it run.
No, I don't work for H&H!!

Wouln't soil the garage with a Honda ;)

[RS250]

Wouln't soil the garage with a Honda ;)

Nice one!

[Arthur]

Quite correct, but this is the only 'running' one. The Honda museum bike has suffered from non use and will need considerable work to make it into even a runner.
This actual bike was reverse engineered to produce a run of six officially sanctioned 'replicas' which (very) rapidly sold out - even at a price of (IIRC) £250k. It was felt at the time that a considerably higher number could have been sold.
The value of this bike? If it were £500k there would be a queue around several blocks - I would estimate the starting point to be several million. Remember it is the only one that will ever be available and has an unquestionable provenance. Think of Hailwood and you automatically think of the iconic Honda 6.
Now think what it would be worth if it were a comparable, unique F1 car; say a genuine Jim Clark Lotus 49?
Lets just hope the new owner doesn't squirrel it away and brings it to Goodwood or Mallory so we can hear it run.
No, I don't work for H&H!!

This one is described as a genuine factory machine raced by Mike Hailwood. The replicas referred to were done by George Beale in the early 2000 s so Mike could not have ridden one of these.Do'nt know what the present condition of the Honda owned machine but it was running ok in 2004 when Jim Redman did a parade lap on it at the Isle of Man TT.

[RS250]

This one is described as a genuine factory machine raced by Mike Hailwood. The replicas referred to were done by George Beale in the early 2000 s so Mike could not have ridden one of these.Do'nt know what the present condition of the Honda owned machine but it was running ok in 2004 when Jim Redman did a parade lap on it at the Isle of Man TT.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear - the bike for sale is the real, ex Hailwood one used by George Beale to replicate everything needed to produce the replicas.
I don't know which bike Jim Redman rode in 2004 on the Island (was it a 250, a 297, or one of the replicas?) but George Beale, as H&H's bike expert, is looking after the sale of this particular bike. It was actually George himself that told me the history of the bike.

[Rennmax]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear - the bike for sale is the real, ex Hailwood one used by George Beale to replicate everything needed to produce the replicas.
I don't know which bike Jim Redman rode in 2004 on the Island (was it a 250, a 297, or one of the replicas?) but George Beale, as H&H's bike expert, is looking after the sale of this particular bike. It was actually George himself that told me the history of the bike.

So it's the RC174 of Teruhisa ‘Teri’ Murayama, which was allegedly destined for the '68 GP season and therefore never raced ? Well, the Hailwood tag will fetch an additional hefty sum I guess...
The Honda six which Jim Redman has paraded is probably the Team Obsolete RC164, a bike with an amazing history, because it was brought to Germany in the sixties for bike shows and was eventually left behind here. German privateer Gerd Heukerott was able to purchase the bike for 14000 DMK (!!) then and rode it in practice at the GP in Hockenheim in '69 were the crank broke. Eventually (rumor has it after some 'inspection' at the premises of Benelli) the bike was bought by Iannucci

Edited by Rennmax, 01 June 2011 - 20:36.

[tonyed]

Sorry if I didn't make it clear - the bike for sale is the real, ex Hailwood one used by George Beale to replicate everything needed to produce the replicas.
I don't know which bike Jim Redman rode in 2004 on the Island (was it a 250, a 297, or one of the replicas?) but George Beale, as H&H's bike expert, is looking after the sale of this particular bike. It was actually George himself that told me the history of the bike.

'A gifted metallurgist, Sochiro Honda was renowned for pushing his employees hard but also for listening to their ideas. The company's research and development department was thus a hotbed of innovation. Arguably, among the (automotive) world's most exquisite expressions of form following function, the RC174's engine was just as much a work of art as Patek Philippe's Supercomplication or one of Faberge's Imperial Eggs. Each individual component was constructed according to its intended performance capabilities with little or no margin for error. Supple enough in one plane to be deformed by hand but sufficiently strong in another to spin to 17,000rpm, the thirteen-piece crankshaft ran in seven bearings (24mm in the centre tapering out to 14mm at the ends) and played host to three different types of con-rod.

The four overhead camshafts were barrel-shaped and acted in pairs to control the twenty-four inlet and exhaust valves (a set-up which effectively altered the cam profile from one cylinder to the next). Beautifully wrought, the cylinder block, cylinder head and crankcase were formed from twenty-nine, twenty-three and fifteen interlocking sub-moulds respectively. Stocked with needle, roller and ball bearings (almost all of which are non-standard sizes), the true beauty of a Honda 'Six' is only revealed via X-ray. Indicative of the 'no compromise' approach behind its development, the unit was riddled with oil ways some of which are siamesed so as to make tiny but discernible savings in overall width / weight. The result of such painstaking attention to detail was an engine that not only developed a sensational 222bhp per litre but also dominated its class despite giving away a nigh on eighteen percent capacity advantage (can you imagine any of the contemporary F1 teams fielding a 2 litre V8 rather than a 2.4 litre unit?)'

From the H and H website.


Think of the complexity of the engineering and then think only a few years later a simple twin cylinder two stroke, not only out powered this tarts boudoir (no reference to Mike H here, but the machine) but would have left it for dead.

That is progress, but like the rotary aero engine of WW1, where in hells name did the four stroke come from and what is more frightening why is it still here?

The other dinosaurs died out millions of years ago.

We could have had an aeroplane where the engine stood still and the whole airframe rotated around it to create lift and forward motion.

To me that is what a four stroke engine is, over complication for little reward.

Ban them now and invest in the two stroke internal combustion engine.

Bury this thing, don’t stand in awe, don’t gape at an engineering anachronism, Honda live in the past, the long past, the sooner we understand this fact the sooner we’ll stop plunging of the cliff like lemmings.

I implore you to shun this sale, if it does go to some billionaire, I hope it never surfaces again to besmirch and pollute us with 17000rpm of Hieronymus Bosch level horror.

This thing had more moving parts in the cylinder head than a grid full of two strokes.

Quote:

‘Beautifully wrought, the cylinder block, cylinder head and crankcase were formed from twenty-nine, twenty-three and fifteen interlocking sub-moulds respectively. Stocked with needle, roller and ball bearings (almost all of which are non-standard sizes), the true beauty of a Honda 'Six' is only revealed via X-ray. Indicative of the 'no compromise' approach behind its development, the unit was riddled with oil ways some of which are siamesed so as to make tiny but discernible savings in overall width / weight’.

What were they making? - No compromise! - No EFFIN idea.

Wake up world. Valves are for ‘trumpets’. Megaphones for the ‘Pre War Film Directors’. Cam shafts for those wishing to be ‘shafted’.

And four strokes for those who cannot achieve ‘ULTIMATE ECSTASY’ in two strokes less.

[Rennmax]

Hi Tony, I always wonder whom you try to convince....

Edited by Rennmax, 31 May 2011 - 17:51.

[picblanc]

Renn did you see on that same link that a Rennmax NSU is for sale too!?

[RS250]

Hi Tony, I always wonder whom you try to convince....

He does have a point about strokers though; I love 'em.

[Rennmax]

He does have a point about strokers though; I love 'em.

Hopefully you accept a different point of view...

[Rennmax]

Renn did you see on that same link that a Rennmax NSU is for sale too!?

Yep, another bike with a colourful history.

Edited by Rennmax, 31 May 2011 - 18:07.

[joeninety]

Good job it wasn't a 125cc five for sale I don't mind what the engine type is, I like lots of bikes for various reasons.

[Rennmax]

Good job it wasn't a 125cc five for sale I don't mind what the engine type is, I like lots of bikes for various reasons.

I think only Luigi Taveri has the only 'private' one

[rd500]

Hi Tony, I always wonder whom you try to convince....

anybody who thinks a step backwards is progress. 4 stroke machinery should have been left alone when they were completely out engineered in the 70s (or 60s or even when scotts were running rings round them)

[fil2.8]

Think you can go back a lot longer than that with Scotts ............

[rd500]

very true, i wouldn't mind them and never had a problem with them but its the way they are rammed down our throat. the honda 4s/5s/6s , mv's etc were great but lets face it they were done for when suzuki got hold of mz's secrets

[joeninety]

Can't for life in me understand all this divide between 2 & 4 strokes with some folks and in particular the dissing of Honda
Did Honda have a 50cc three in the pipeline ?

Edited by joeninety, 31 May 2011 - 18:56.

[rd500]

my divide only started when they took away my choices and replaced racing bikes with road based machinery and told me a load of incorrect facts to support it.

give me back my bikes in racing and for the road, stop the lies and i have no more devide, simples as they say

[rd500]

suzuki had a 50cc 3 that supposedly was built but was never seen, not sure about honda, i know they had a twin 50 that raced once

[joeninety]

simples as they say
Still "confused.com"
Apart from the sounds that played such a big part of my childhood. Two strokes sound good as a triple or at a pinch a four on peashooter pipes whereas a Four stroke gives out harmonics or did, to die for....

Edited by joeninety, 31 May 2011 - 19:25.

[Arthur]

Renn did you see on that same link that a Rennmax NSU is for sale too!?

The NSU Rennmax was the one of I believe only 2 in existance and was last raced in the TT by John Kidson.

[jonnoj]

Wake up world. Valves are for ‘trumpets’. Megaphones for the ‘Pre War Film Directors’. Cam shafts for those wishing to be ‘shafted’.

And four strokes for those who cannot achieve ‘ULTIMATE ECSTASY’ in two strokes less.

Four strokes - 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 8 cylinders, every capacity from 50cc to 1200cc and above. Everyone one of them sounds entirely different, you can feel them vibrate through your body.
Two stokes - they make me 'ead hurt.

[joeninety]

Four strokes - 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 8 cylinders, every capacity from 50cc to 1200cc and above. Everyone one of them sounds entirely different, you can feel them vibrate through your body.
Two stokes - they make me 'ead hurt.

Hear ear

[rd500]

yes of course apart from the sore head bit as the ol strokers as a spectator used to get my heart racing, an rg500 slipping the the clutch coming out of knockhill hairpin in the wet would get your full attention believe me, we should be all singing off the same sheet here then, as ive said before it's not about hating this or that its that the real real racing, has gone. please remember until they went 4 strokes only in moto gp you could race whatever you wanted up to that capacity, now you can only race 4 strokes. i found some pics from knockhill 80 i think when donnie and ron haslam had a battle cant remember who won, looks like donnie is on a 350 and ron is on the 750 yamahas, im sure it was this meeting when jock taylor tried to break the outright lap record on the 700, ill post up a pic as soon as i get a new scanner

[Rennmax]

Four strokes - 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 & 8 cylinders, every capacity from 50cc to 1200cc and above. Everyone one of them sounds entirely different, you can feel them vibrate through your body.
Two stokes - they make me 'ead hurt.

One of those sexy 2 strokes



Can't get enough

[fil2.8]

suzuki had a 50cc 3 that supposedly was built but was never seen, not sure about honda, i know they had a twin 50 that raced once

Think you'll find that Ralph Bryans 50cc World Championship was on the Honda Twin , I stand , of course to be corrected ...................

[rd500]

i always thoght robb done suzuka on the 50 twin, 63? i struggle to remember what i done last week, i blame the drink

[rd500]

or mabye thats the 3, anyhoo a bigger brother of the sexy 2 stroke forementioned, turn it up



oh yeah

[jonnoj]

Think you'll find that Ralph Bryans 50cc World Championship was on the Honda Twin , I stand , of course to be corrected ...................

Certainly was a twin

RC113/114

50 cc RC113 and RC114

The RC113, introduced during the Japanese GP of 1963, is a twin with the same bore and stroke as the previous RC112, 33 x 29 mm for a total capacity of 49.6 cc, but now with four valves per cylinder. Total valve angle is 72 degrees, symmetrical: both inlet and exhaust valves are under an angle of 36 degrees. Ignition is by a transistorised breakerless system, with 8 mm spark plugs.

The carburettors are again the flat-slided type. This carburettor type builds shorter than the round slided type, and the very high engine speeds necessitate a very short inlet and exhaust length to achieve optimum wave tuning. Lubrication is by wet sump, and there are nine speeds in the gearbox. Power output is 13 bhp at 18,500 rpm; the red line on the rev counter is at 19,000 rpm, and short excursions to 20,000 rpm are allowed. Dry weight of the bike is 53 kg, lower than its predecessor through extensive use of magnesium, and a curious front brake.

The latter is the same as used on a normal bicycle, with two brake pads being clamped on to the rim. This saves total weight and unsprung weight, which improves handling. Two large, light alloy discs are mounted on the front wheel to give some streamlining. See pics RC113-1 and –2. The RC114 is practically identical with the RC113, with the gear train to the camshafts on the right-hand side of the engine and a bore and stroke of 33 x 29 mm for a toatal capacity of 49.6 cc. Valve angle is also the same with 36 degrees for both inlet and exhaust valves.Power output is 14 bhp at 19,000 rpm, red line is at 20,500 rpm and short time excursions to 23,000 rpm are permitted. There is a nine speed gearbox. Top speed is well over 170 km/h.

"Only 9 gears". Didn't Suzuki come up with a 17 speed gearbox for one of their buzzboxes?

[jonnoj]

One of those sexy 2 strokes



Can't get enough

Sounds like it's gonna stop any second. Funny video, where's the cloud of blue smoke??

[fil2.8]

"Only 9 gears". Didn't Suzuki come up with a 17 speed gearbox for one of their buzzboxes?

Thought that was the Kriedler , I was corrected on that ..............................

[rd500]

a few more to show they all have their place

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[rd500]

and this one

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[jonnoj]

or mabye thats the 3, anyhoo a bigger brother of the sexy 2 stroke forementioned, turn it up



oh yeah

Onboard sound is nothing like how a bike sounds to those beside the tracks.

[rd500]

Sounds like it's gonna stop any second. Funny video, where's the cloud of blue smoke??

shes a classic though, the only thing i cant see is the traction control and the pr bull, oh i forgot its a real bike

[rd500]

Thought that was the Kriedler , I was corrected on that ..............................

i think it was the suzuki 50 3 cyl that had 17 gears and was never raced, apparently ir done 118 mph at suzukis test track?

[rd500]

i think it was onboard sounds

[jonnoj]

i think it was the suzuki 50 3 cyl that had 17 gears and was never raced, apparently ir done 118 mph at suzukis test track?

Found this

Suzuki RC165 '64Suzuki RC 165 1964 ???
Engine type: Water-cooled 50 cc parallel twin 2-stroke. Maximum 17.500 rpm, 170 kph.
Gears: 14

14 not 17

Going up and down that all race must have felt like the rider had run the race.

[rd500]

when you look at katoh (RIP) bike being wheeled ourt it looks awsome and then they start it properly, awsome

Edited by rd500, 31 May 2011 - 21:49.

[T54]

The Suzuki 3-cylinder 50cc engine was never completed.
neither was the Honda 3-cylinder engine.
Both were being developed when the FIM established new regulations that limited the 50cc class to ONE cylinder, for the 1969 season.
The Japanese saw no reason to pursue and both projects were abandoned.
There are plenty of good books to tell you the correct story...

[Classicpics]

What was the Hailwood Honda that Rodney Gould sold to someone in Holland and where is it now?

[joeninety]

http://www.youtube.c...be_gdata_player

Bet he was Has it de-valued the motorcycle ?

Can't understand for the life in me what are classified as replicas. how many exist and of what

Edited by joeninety, 17 June 2011 - 20:29.