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Ban DRS in Qualifying


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#1 McRules

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 10:53

Guys,
In my opinion if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking it should really be banned in qualifying.
In doing so it would also negate the advantage redbull has at the moment and open up a more level field, making qualifying interesting again.
What do you think?

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#2 trogggy

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 10:55

I think teams would gear their cars for qualifying without DRS.

#3 SCUDmissile

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 10:56

maybe in quali they should also only be allowed to use DRS in the DRS zone, just like the race.

#4 Clatter

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 10:58

Guys,
In my opinion if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking it should really be banned in qualifying.
In doing so it would also negate the advantage redbull has at the moment and open up a more level field, making qualifying interesting again.
What do you think?


And if RB are still fastest what are you going to ban next?

The playing field is already level. They are all playing to the same rules and it's for the teams to design and build competitive cars. Just because 1 team has done a better job than the others is not a good reason to start trying to hobble them.

#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 10:59

I think teams would gear their cars for qualifying without DRS.


That'd be a bad idea. So if they're dumb enough to do it I say let them.

#6 MonzaF1

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:01

What is this "equal playing field" sillimess?

This is f1 and the equal playing field are the rules. Well supposedly. There have been favors in the past and penalties, think Ferrari's veto and Renault's front wing.

But egalitarianism in f1 opposes the entire concept of f1 and it has been taken far enough.

Anyone that cannot keep up with RB7 and Vettel - and that includes Webber - well tough titties baby!

#7 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:02

What is this "equal playing field" sillimess?

This is f1 and the equal playing field are the rules. Well supposedly. There have been favors in the past and penalties, think Ferrari's veto and Renault's front wing.

But egalitarianism in f1 opposes the entire concept of f1 and it has been taken far enough.

Anyone that cannot keep up with RB7 and Vettel - and that includes Webber - well tough titties baby!

This :up:

#8 Dunder

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:03

Guys,
In my opinion if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking it should really be banned in qualifying.
In doing so it would also negate the advantage redbull has at the moment and open up a more level field, making qualifying interesting again.
What do you think?


The rules are the same for everyone so it is already a level playing field.




#9 Unbiased

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:38

I think the title of this thread (and many other similar threads) should be:

"The FIA should change the regulations to stop RBR and help my team win".

Suddenly manipulating the rules is OK if it would disadvantage the other team. How is that sport? Why not just put it in the regulations that only McLaren and Ferrari are allowed to win a race and anyone else who dares to produce a better car than these 2 teams should be disqualified?

Rather pathetic.

#10 harrows

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:40

Yeah, let's ban Red Bull alltogether...then your favourite driver might win something. :)

#11 trogggy

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:46

That'd be a bad idea. So if they're dumb enough to do it I say let them.

It wouldn't be a dumb idea for Vettel right now, for one.

#12 spacekid

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:54

Ignoring the bit about changing the rules ti try to slow Red Bull down a bit, I actually quite like DRS in qualifying. I'm not madly keen on the system anyway, but if it is going to exist I'd much rather see the drivers allowed to use it when and wherever they like, rather than only in an arbitraily designated zone an arbitrary distance away from another car, controlled by an FIA box. Ugh.

#13 McRules

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 11:58

With all due respect to redbull,
my opinion was primarily based on the fact that if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking why should they be used in qualifying?
This was definitely not intended against redbull or their fan club.
Mind you Redbull have a quicker car anyways and they dont need drs to put them in the front.

#14 Stormsky68

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:07

I also tend to think it should be banned

#15 jk

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:21

It is the same for everybody. To use DRS well (as Vettel has been the best at) is a driving skill in modern F1. I for one think that challenges where drivers can make a difference is to be encouraged.

#16 McRules

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:24

It is the same for everybody. To use DRS well (as Vettel has been the best at) is a driving skill in modern F1. I for one think that challenges where drivers can make a difference is to be encouraged.

That's a good point.

#17 pdac

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:31

Yeah, let's ban Red Bull alltogether...then your favourite driver might win something. :)


No, not ban. Much better to have then severely limited and have Seb tied to the team in a totally unbreakable contract, for many years. That way every race will be and hour and a half of waved blue flags followed by the whole field overtaking them multiple times. :)

#18 joshb

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:33

Last year Red bull struggled (comparitively) at canada mainly due to the long straights and lack of high speed corners but if their DRS works much better than the others will this help them enough to secure pole position, although come the race i feel they might not quite have the pace.

#19 glorius&victorius

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:35

I like watching some of the cars become totally loose with DRS activated...
So more spectacle in qualy. For that it can stay.

Its the other teams that need to improve.

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#20 PassWind

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:37

Guys,
In my opinion if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking it should really be banned in qualifying.
In doing so it would also negate the advantage redbull has at the moment and open up a more level field, making qualifying interesting again.
What do you think?


Well..............

I think hobbling a team to make it fair isn't.


#21 Don2011

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:44

don't think they should ban it for qualifying, as mentioned earlier it is a skill that plays to the better drivers as it should be.

#22 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:48

That'd be a bad idea. So if they're dumb enough to do it I say let them.

At the time the rules were written, it was certainly a reasonable fear. Last year the teams concentrated on optimising the gear ratio for qualifying, and the laps in the clear, knowing that they'd seriously limit the ability of their driver to use a tow to overtake.

Teams are always going to perform a benefit analysis; "should we optimise the gear ratio for laps when you can deploy DRS, or laps when you can't?". Remember, they don't even necessarily use it that much during the race. Vettel in Australia probably hardly touched it, save for a lap or two around the pitstops and lapping the occasional back-marker. Ban it's use in qualifying, and you could still tip the balance back towards a too short a gear. Scenario:

Jenson runs a shorter gear ratio, Lewis runs a longer DRS-suitable gear ratio.
Jenson out-qualifies Lewis due to having the correct gear-ratio for a non-DRS qualifying season.
Jenson is able to build a lead over Lewis due to having the correct gear-ratio for the first two non-DRS laps of the race.
Lewis isn't within 1 second of Jenson so can't deploy DRS, loses a bit of time on the third lap due the non-optimum gear ratio
Repeat to the end of the race.
Jenson wins.

Edited by MrAerodynamicist, 31 May 2011 - 12:50.


#23 Jordana

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:49

Yeah, let's ban Red Bull alltogether...then your favourite driver might win something. :)


Yeah! FIA should ban RBR for, at least, the next six races and then, we'll see! :rolleyes:

#24 H2H

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:54

And if RB are still fastest what are you going to ban next?

The playing field is already level. They are all playing to the same rules and it's for the teams to design and build competitive cars. Just because 1 team has done a better job than the others is not a good reason to start trying to hobble them.


Indeed. A mid-season ban to hobble a better competitor is just poor sportsmanship.

Personally I don't understand why DRS is allowed in such a way in Quali, but a ban now would punish the teams which designed their cars/setup to go achieve a relative advantage in drag reduction due to DRS.

#25 jk

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 13:16

Do we even know that Red Bulls DRS works better than the other teams? Certainly Vettel is the most agressive user of the system, opening it sooner on exit than his competitors.
The exaust overrun system, the most effective blown diffuser thanks to Mr Newey and no worries about overheating KERS (or whatever it is that is going on in the race) means that the car has an advantage in qualifying compared to the race. I am not sure that DRS is a major part of the Red Bull qualifying advantage.

#26 faaaz

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 13:27

It would be interesting in Monza haha. Any chances of eclipsing the lap record this year in Quali?

#27 engel

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 13:42

it's getting a bit hilarious, ban RB's front wing, diffuser, overrun,DRS ... maybe they should just ask RB to not turn up for a race or two :S

The playing field is level. If RB is gaining more from their DRS in quali mode (cause for example it sheds less drag than the others) then it's losing in the race. It's a 0 sum game. Difference is you win point is the race, not quali. And if RB indeed runs a compromise DRS they will pay a heavier price in the races now there are 2 DRS zones.

Edited by engel, 31 May 2011 - 14:25.


#28 l2k2

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 14:16

It would be interesting in Monza haha. Any chances of eclipsing the lap record this year in Quali?


Not even the slightest, because at Monza one already runs rear wing at the angles DRS gives on other tracks. And Monza is all about power, which the current cars lack.

For example the F2004 could make 1:21:046 in the race; the F10 was the only car getting sub 1:22 (Fred 1:21:962), and it was in qualifying.
In qualifying the F2004 made a 1:20.089 with fuel onboard (for ?? laps, which we don't know, probably around ten).



#29 bourbon

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 14:47

With all due respect to redbull,
my opinion was primarily based on the fact that if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking why should they be used in qualifying?
This was definitely not intended against redbull or their fan club.
Mind you Redbull have a quicker car anyways and they dont need drs to put them in the front.


Nothing would change if you remove the DRS from use for all the teams. But that apart, qualifying is most interesting when the tyres don't come into play.

#30 korzeniow

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 15:05

Another exactly the same thread ....

#31 Dunder

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 17:22

With all due respect to redbull,
my opinion was primarily based on the fact that if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking why should they be used in qualifying?
This was definitely not intended against redbull or their fan club.
Mind you Redbull have a quicker car anyways and they dont need drs to put them in the front.


It is allowed in qualifying as a means to ensure that all the teams use it.
If it were not allowed in qualifying it might well be that some teams choose not to take the 'penalty' of less than optimal gear ratios and not fit the system at all.


#32 Dunder

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 17:24

It would be interesting in Monza haha. Any chances of eclipsing the lap record this year in Quali?


In Monza the level of drag reduction will be the lowest all season because they will already be running with very low downforce/drag wings.
Last year was an exception because they could use the f-duct at any time during the race.


#33 Andrew Hope

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 17:29

Again and again, I feel like shit for being born into the entertainment era. There are some things you simply have to hope happen, and not actively ensure they do. An extremely exciting Formula One season is something we all want, but it's absolutely worthless if we make it happen. We all want races like the kind we've got at Canada and Spa in recent years, but those races would mean sweet f all if we got them every weekend. Everyone wants to be beautiful, but if everyone's beautiful, no one's beautiful, because there's nothing to set beauty apart. You have to take the good with the bad.

I would love to have four or five teams fighting for the win and all teams fighting for points every weekend, but I want that to be achieved in the right way, by everyone just calming down for a little while and letting the racing evolve over the course of a season, not by castrating the top teams and endlessly messing with the regulations.

#34 Mc_Silver

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 17:36

I think u re right but i dont think that will happen soon!

#35 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 17:39

Again and again, I feel like shit for being born into the entertainment era. There are some things you simply have to hope happen, and not actively ensure they do. An extremely exciting Formula One season is something we all want, but it's absolutely worthless if we make it happen. We all want races like the kind we've got at Canada and Spa in recent years, but those races would mean sweet f all if we got them every weekend. Everyone wants to be beautiful, but if everyone's beautiful, no one's beautiful, because there's nothing to set beauty apart. You have to take the good with the bad.

I would love to have four or five teams fighting for the win and all teams fighting for points every weekend, but I want that to be achieved in the right way, by everyone just calming down for a little while and letting the racing evolve over the course of a season, not by castrating the top teams and endlessly messing with the regulations.


Indeed mate, like when I look outside my front window, and when I see a nice shiny new car pass, it's a nice sight, but if all the cars who passed my house were new, then the novelty would wear off quick. Yep that's why there is variety in all aspects of life. To appreciate the difference, :wave:


#36 Kubiccia

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 17:48

Name of the thread opener: McRules

Conclusion: ban whining Mclaren fans that are frustrated because Red Bull is so much better than Mclaren. :rolleyes:

#37 faaaz

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 15:59

Not even the slightest, because at Monza one already runs rear wing at the angles DRS gives on other tracks. And Monza is all about power, which the current cars lack.

For example the F2004 could make 1:21:046 in the race; the F10 was the only car getting sub 1:22 (Fred 1:21:962), and it was in qualifying.
In qualifying the F2004 made a 1:20.089 with fuel onboard (for ?? laps, which we don't know, probably around ten).



In Monza the level of drag reduction will be the lowest all season because they will already be running with very low downforce/drag wings.
Last year was an exception because they could use the f-duct at any time during the race.



Yeah completely forgot about that, so the DRS would be pretty redundant? But i could be interesting to see what the rear wing angles some teams would go for I remember last year Button opted for more downforce and less straight line speed. With DRS you could easily afford more downforce through lismos , ascari et al and still manage good top speed.

#38 Clatter

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 16:17

Yeah completely forgot about that, so the DRS would be pretty redundant? But i could be interesting to see what the rear wing angles some teams would go for I remember last year Button opted for more downforce and less straight line speed. With DRS you could easily afford more downforce through lismos , ascari et al and still manage good top speed.


Last year JB went for more downforce because they were able to stall the rear wing on the straights, that's not available to them this year so expect a conventional setup.

#39 faaaz

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 16:44

What exactly is the difference between the DRS and F-Duct?

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#40 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 16:48

What exactly is the difference between the DRS and F-Duct?

DRS is easy to operate and a straight forward way of reducing downforce.
edit. F-Duct could be used anywhere in the race, qualy etc.
drs can be used fully in qualy but in the race only in the specified zone and under the specified conditions.

with f-duct they were always running more rear wing knowing you could always stall it. with DRS if you do that you'll end up slow as a snail during the race

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 01 June 2011 - 16:49.


#41 faaaz

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 16:55

DRS is easy to operate and a straight forward way of reducing downforce.
edit. F-Duct could be used anywhere in the race, qualy etc.
drs can be used fully in qualy but in the race only in the specified zone and under the specified conditions.

with f-duct they were always running more rear wing knowing you could always stall it. with DRS if you do that you'll end up slow as a snail during the race



So you cant change the amount of rear wing you are running from quali to race? Since DRS can be used anywhere during quali.

#42 jonnoj

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 16:55

If there was a valid reason to stop the teams using special tyres in qualifying - what is the excuse for allowing something that is controlled during a race?

People can say what they like, but being No1 on the grid is important - allowing the free use of DRS in qualifying, but not in the race does benefit any car that's setup mainly for qualifying. If Toyota were still racing, I'd expect them to doing just that.





#43 mlsnoopy

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 17:27

Limit it only to the DRS zone.

#44 Clatter

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 17:50

So you cant change the amount of rear wing you are running from quali to race? Since DRS can be used anywhere during quali.


Nope, once Q starts they are under Parc Ferme conditions.

Edited by Clatter, 01 June 2011 - 17:51.


#45 F1Champion

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 18:47

I would ban it purely because it isn't needed in qualifying. Its main aim is to help overtaking in the race. Remove it and keep for the race.

#46 McRules

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 21:04

I would ban it purely because it isn't needed in qualifying. Its main aim is to help overtaking in the race. Remove it and keep for the race.

I kept reiteraing this twice, but i guess people see it as a conspiracy against redbull. Having said that a few good points were said about the challenges it throws to drivers.

#47 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:37

How many threads do we need about this anyway?
http://forums.autosp...w...5672&hl=DRS

With all due respect to redbull,
my opinion was primarily based on the fact that if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking why should they be used in qualifying?
This was definitely not intended against redbull or their fan club.
Mind you Redbull have a quicker car anyways and they dont need drs to put them in the front.


Because

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 01 June 2011 - 22:41.


#48 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:59

So you cant change the amount of rear wing you are running from quali to race? Since DRS can be used anywhere during quali.

exactly.....

#49 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:02

I would ban it purely because it isn't needed in qualifying. Its main aim is to help overtaking in the race. Remove it and keep for the race.

it's difficult to use, it leads to driver mistakes and generally to the same you would get from 80hp added to your engine just for qualy.

we moan cars are too slow and easy to drive yet we want a device that makes them quicker without any extra cost banned for no reason

#50 SpaMaster

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Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:12

Guys,
In my opinion if DRS was introduced to aid overtaking it should really be banned in qualifying.
In doing so it would also negate the advantage redbull has at the moment and open up a more level field, making qualifying interesting again.
What do you think?

When DRS was set to be used in qualy earlier, people said that other teams have an easier system, hence Red Bull would struggle. Then we see Vettel using the DRS in turn 8, Barcelona final corner, etc. where other teams can only dream of using.