Jump to content


Photo

Have all of the basic problems of overtaking been solved by this year's regulations and tyres?


  • Please log in to reply
36 replies to this topic

Poll: Have all of the basic problems of overtaking been solved by this year's regulations and tyres? (102 member(s) have cast votes)

Have all of the basic problems of overtaking been solved by this year's regulations and tyres?

  1. Yes (26 votes [25.49%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.49%

  2. No (24 votes [23.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 23.53%

  3. Partly - the FIA/Pirelli are on a right track (52 votes [50.98%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.98%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 broooz

broooz
  • Member

  • 108 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 01 June 2011 - 07:30

Naturally, a certain percentage of the people will never be satisfied.
However, this year provided us with a plenty of overtaking and even at Monaco things changed significantly (mind you, it's never been easy to overtake there).
People often forget that overtaking a healthy car in front on merit has never been easy in F1 and some of the "artificial" means were often significant contribution factors in overtaking (tyre wear and fuel levels in 1950s, boost buttons and fuel conservation in 1980s, etc.) and that we used to have processional races in all eras.

IMHO, a reduction of the aero dependency would put the whole thing on a healthier grounds, as it would diminish the influence of tyre wear. I would also like to see a completely free usage of tyre compounds and no parc fermé rules.

Edited by broooz, 01 June 2011 - 07:53.


Advertisement

#2 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,346 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 June 2011 - 07:53

Naturally, a certain percentage of the peopel will never be satisfied.
However, this year provided us with a plenty of overtaking and even at Monaco things changed significantly (mind you, it was never easy to overtake there).
People often forget that overtaking a healthy car in front on merit has never been easy in F1 and some of the "artificial" means were often significant contribution factors in overtaking (tyre wear and fuel levels in 1950s, boost buttons and fuel conservation in 1980s, etc.) and that we used to have processional races in all eras.

IMHO, a reduction of the aero dependency would put the whole thing on a healthier grounds, as it would diminish the influence of tyre wear. I would also like to see a completely free usage of tyre compounds and no parc fermé rules.


Aero still has to be sorted, period.

The boost button in the 1980's really wasn't an overtaking device as all turbo cars had them and could use at will.

#3 jee

jee
  • Member

  • 718 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 01 June 2011 - 07:57

The boost button in the 1980's really wasn't an overtaking device as all turbo cars had them and could use at will.


But with the danger of damaging the car.

#4 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,346 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:06

But with the danger of damaging the car.


Well, the bigger issue would have been when the allowable fuel load was limited. Would mean the more you'd use the button, the leaner you'd have to run the rest of the race.

#5 Dusty

Dusty
  • Member

  • 274 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:09

I have saw cars follow closely, overtaking and strategy. Barring having a perfect world I believe this has nailed as many problems as we could realistically wish for. :D

#6 ViMaMo

ViMaMo
  • Member

  • 5,030 posts
  • Joined: September 03

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:09

I think its been solved. For those who cried about a faster car being held up by slower car, now its not a problem. If they can tweak the DRS zones a bit, like they did in Catalunya, it might just settle the issue.

Ofcourse DRS is not fair, but thats another debate point which has been discussed already.

#7 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,346 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:14

I have saw cars follow closely, overtaking and strategy. Barring having a perfect world I believe this has nailed as many problems as we could realistically wish for. :D



I think its been solved. For those who cried about a faster car being held up by slower car, now its not a problem. If they can tweak the DRS zones a bit, like they did in Catalunya, it might just settle the issue.

Ofcourse DRS is not fair, but thats another debate point which has been discussed already.



This is what I fear. DRS was supposed to be a temporary fixed until the 2013 aero regulations.

The truth is that cars still can't follow through corners closely on similar tyres. It now looks like the stopgap measure is permanent and 2013 has been scrapped. Complete ****ing joke.

#8 Dusty

Dusty
  • Member

  • 274 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:23

The truth is that cars still can't follow through corners closely on similar tyres. It now looks like the stopgap measure is permanent and 2013 has been scrapped. Complete ****ing joke.


Have you been watching Hamilton follow people in various races? I think there are a number of drivers out there not exploiting what there cars can do, perhaps with the order to preserve tyres of course. The lead car will always get the throttle on first through a corner btw and that can never be changed so perhaps you are not taking that into account.

#9 joshb

joshb
  • Member

  • 3,285 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 01 June 2011 - 08:47

I'd still like them to focus more on mechanical grip as opposed to aerodynamics because if we can maintain grip levels whilst reducing the aero a bit, we'd get a lot of overaking without the tyres,KERS and DRS

#10 Henrytheeigth

Henrytheeigth
  • Member

  • 4,655 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:03

I'd still like them to focus more on mechanical grip as opposed to aerodynamics because if we can maintain grip levels whilst reducing the aero a bit, we'd get a lot of overaking without the tyres,KERS and DRS


That has been said time and again mate, it's actually been written in stone as well. The problem is that the powers that be are waiting for that stone to bleed, instead of taking head of what's been written in it lol.

#11 Dusty

Dusty
  • Member

  • 274 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:15

I'd still like them to focus more on mechanical grip as opposed to aerodynamics because if we can maintain grip levels whilst reducing the aero a bit, we'd get a lot of overaking without the tyres,KERS and DRS


Aero goes hand in hand with racing so the current rules seem to be be bringing aero and mechanical into balance.

#12 FA and RK fan

FA and RK fan
  • Member

  • 255 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:16

A lot has been fixed, but there is still a lot of things to do. I was surprised when i saw cars coming out of Turn 8 at Turkey and passing a car infront at following straight (with out DRS) or right at the exit of a turn 8.

To me, that showed, aero wasn't the main factor but one of two factors, with tires being a huge problem too in the last years.

I think major tweaks might not be needed, but some minor aero tweaks are welcomed before 2013 season.

#13 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 3,069 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:28

I think new rules (DRS, KERS as push-to-pass) are nothing but quick fix, but I'm all for their effort of trying whatever possible and seeking solution. Keep going.

The last thing I do is a hasty witch hunting. Quite a few people still naively think Bridgestone has been (by far the) big(gest) issue, but last year, time difference between fresh sets and old sets, and option and prime was huge. I'm not insisting Bridgestone couldnt do better, but saying Bridgestone was major issue is naive.


#14 sharo

sharo
  • Member

  • 1,772 posts
  • Joined: April 11

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:30

I'd still like them to focus more on mechanical grip as opposed to aerodynamics because if we can maintain grip levels whilst reducing the aero a bit, we'd get a lot of overaking without the tyres,KERS and DRS

I support the same view.

#15 Marbles

Marbles
  • Member

  • 550 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 09:57

I voted that the rules are are on the right track and I agree with joshb and company that physical grip should be enhanced.


Now that the drivers *can* pass with some regularity, it seems to me that the paltry rules describing a legitimate pass could also use an overhaul and clarification. During the past 10-15 years of difficult passing conditions the drivers were forced to resort to aggressive, even questionable passing tactics. Now that the drivers can pass again, it seems only fair to give them better guidance regarding what constitutes a legal pass, how the legacy of aggressive passing tactics will be treated now, and which actions will draw sanction from the stewards.

I think a clarification of overtaking rules will better serve the drivers, the fans, the stewards, and ultimately the FIA itself.

#16 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 01 June 2011 - 14:01

The tyres have undoubtedly changed the nature of the races (for the better).

DRS should be seen as a 'stop gap' to actually tackling the issue of aero wake.

So, on the right track, but I am concerned that DRS might become a permanent feature which I fundamentally disagree with.

#17 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,743 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 01 June 2011 - 14:16

nah, similer performing cars on similer age tyres still struggle to pass :/

#18 Afterburner

Afterburner
  • In the running for best OP of 2014

  • 3,372 posts
  • Joined: January 11

Posted 01 June 2011 - 14:32

I chose "partly", because I believe the Pirellis have served to eliminate the boredom of the races by allowing varying strategies to help influence the results of the race, but also because I don't think we need "overtaking zones".

Overtaking is no longer impossible and is helped by wearing tyres, but the strategy aspect behind the sport makes it so that overtaking isn't necessarily the most important aspect of the racing. Should you rely on a "faster" strategy at the cost of track position, perhaps risking the chance that you'll be unable to pass a slower car? Or should you stick it out on a slower strategy to keep track position and try to keep the faster cars behind you? These two choices have led to a disparity in pace between the lead cars in the final laps of the last two races--and have led to some of the most intense finishes in recent memory. Because of this, I believe that Pirelli is on the right track with their tyre design and what it's done for the racing. I feel that F1 is more about racing again and less about driving quickly. Endless hotlaps will no longer guarantee a win--you need to be smart as well as quick, and I think that enhances the value of victories in F1.

I still don't agree with the way the DRS is being implemented in races. As I've said many times before, I think the drivers should be allowed infinite use of DRS during the race, anywhere they want. We obviously don't need overtaking zones with the pace differential this year's tyres have created--Monaco partially proved that with perhaps the smallest number of DRS passes in any race thus far, with most of the overtaking going on outside of the overtaking zone. The overtaking zone is reminiscint of a gimmick used in an arcade game, and though I love the idea of the DRS, I hate the idea of the overtaking zones. Either let them use it all the time or take it off the car--and though I think it'll be more likely that they just remove it altogether, I would really miss watching the wing flaps on the cars open and close repeatedly during qualifying. Movable aero is a tech F1 should've tapped into ages ago. It's a shame that they've chosen such a poor way to execute it during the races.

Edited by Afterburner, 01 June 2011 - 14:35.


#19 Disgrace

Disgrace
  • RC Forum Host

  • 9,924 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 14:37

Everything is fine apart from draconian stewarding should overtaking go wrong.

Advertisement

#20 broooz

broooz
  • Member

  • 108 posts
  • Joined: May 11

Posted 01 June 2011 - 15:02

Everything is fine apart from draconian stewarding should overtaking go wrong.

In a Keke Rosberg thread somewhere on this forum someone, after watching video clips of Keke's overtakings, posted something like "they didn't block much back then".
That's part of the answer - 20 or 30 years ago (when passing was easier than up to this year but it was also easier partly because blocking was scarce), it was not a big deal to leave enough room and step aside from the racing line even if still ahead. Driving ethics was different, overtaking attempts were honoured and passes were clean and easy.

And then Senna appeared and turned it all upside down with his "give it up or we crash" attitude (yes, we had bastards on track before but Senna was the first one to apply that attitude consistently and successfully).

Edited by broooz, 01 June 2011 - 20:37.


#21 smitten

smitten
  • Member

  • 1,442 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 15:33

I voted that the rules are are on the right track and I agree with joshb and company that physical grip should be enhanced.


Nah - motorsport always seems a lot more fun when there's waaay more power than grip. Cut down on aero AND mechanical grip: sort the men from the boys.

#22 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,918 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 June 2011 - 19:38

Nah - motorsport always seems a lot more fun when there's waaay more power than grip. Cut down on aero AND mechanical grip: sort the men from the boys.


Yes. If we've decided that F1 no longer cares about the teams being able to buy the best possible tyre technology, why not go for all out fun and make a super hard, super slippery tyre that has cars wheelspinning out of every corner 1970s-style?

Edited by Risil, 01 June 2011 - 19:39.


#23 Palmero

Palmero
  • Member

  • 296 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 19:41

Yes

Only thing I would tweak is longer/shorter DRS zones where applicable, and I don't like lead lap cars being able to DRS off of backmarkers in front of them, kind of ruins the purpose.

Agree with above on stewarding also, its too harsh on 'causing a collision' right now.

Edited by Palmero, 01 June 2011 - 19:42.


#24 DarthWillie

DarthWillie
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 01 June 2011 - 19:45

I really like the way we are going. Turkey DRS zone was to long, Spain was good. DRS shouldn't garantue a pass, it should make it possible.

Tyres nee some tweaking, but also on the rigth track. The difference between soft and hard needs some work but we are getting there.

#25 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,822 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:29

nah, similer performing cars on similer age tyres still struggle to pass :/


Well of course, never been different, and how could it be? (Or why should it be?)


#26 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,346 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:49

Have you been watching Hamilton follow people in various races? I think there are a number of drivers out there not exploiting what there cars can do, perhaps with the order to preserve tyres of course.


Not close enough for my liking. We wouldn't need the DRS system if cars could following closely enough.


The lead car will always get the throttle on first through a corner btw and that can never be changed so perhaps you are not taking that into account.


I'm one of the few posters on here who are constantly complaining of having hairpins and chicanes leading onto straights. The reason for no passing at Barcelona wasn't the final corner, it was that bloody chicane before if. The slower the corner, the more the yo-yo effect of getting on the throttle earlier is magnified. Ideally we'd have perfect aero and very faster corners leading onto straights to keep the racing close.

Here's a whole thread I did about it.

http://forums.autosp...w...3&hl=effect

#27 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 22:53

Believe it or not, the ban of the DDD is the biggest reason why cars can follow each other so closely. The 2009 regulation changes are finally working!

#28 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,918 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:03

I'm one of the few posters on here who are constantly complaining of having hairpins and chicanes leading onto straights. The reason for no passing at Barcelona wasn't the final corner, it was that bloody chicane before if. The slower the corner, the more the yo-yo effect of getting on the throttle earlier is magnified. Ideally we'd have perfect aero and very faster corners leading onto straights to keep the racing close.

Here's a whole thread I did about it.

http://forums.autosp...w...3&hl=effect


If you'd put it up after Abu Dhabi in 2010 it'd have got about 10 pages. Ahead of your time. :p

Istanbul of course has some monstrously fast corners (is that kink just before the DRS zone that the MotoGP guys raved about a fast corner in the F1 sense? They don't lift, but that's not the same thing...), and certainly there the overtaking was thought to be 'too easy'. It'll be interesting to see what the racing's like when we get to the proper circuits like Silverstone, Spa and Interlagos. I thought there would be more but it seems every track is a bloody hairpin-straight-hairpin one these days. :o

#29 Risil

Risil
  • Member

  • 13,918 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:06

Believe it or not, the ban of the DDD is the biggest reason why cars can follow each other so closely. The 2009 regulation changes are finally working!


Is that true? Do you have any links to technical data or analysis?

Not saying it's bollocks, and obviously something more than DRS has changed, but I haven't read anything conclusive one way or the other yet. KERS must help but theoretically everyone has it. We see a lot of passes outside DRS zones these days. From what I can tell most people seem to be pointing towards the Pirellis as the main factor (Canada 2010 wasn't short of overtaking, was it), but again, some sensible laptime analyses would help.

#30 BigCHrome

BigCHrome
  • Member

  • 4,049 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:23

Is that true? Do you have any links to technical data or analysis?

Not saying it's bollocks, and obviously something more than DRS has changed, but I haven't read anything conclusive one way or the other yet. KERS must help but theoretically everyone has it. We see a lot of passes outside DRS zones these days. From what I can tell most people seem to be pointing towards the Pirellis as the main factor (Canada 2010 wasn't short of overtaking, was it), but again, some sensible laptime analyses would help.


I don't have any links but I vividly recall some drivers saying that it was much easier to follow cars that didn't have a DDD in 2009.

DRS hasn't made that much of a difference for me, because top drivers rarely overtake each other with it, most of the time it's used to pass midfielders or backmarkers.

The Pirelli's have made the races more interesting as a whole, but they wouldn't make a difference for what I'm talking about. For example in China when Button, Hamilton and Vettel were all within a second of each other, they all had the same tires and grip levels - doesn't matter whether they are on Pirelli's, Bridgestones or grooved tires. Another example was Barcelona when Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton had a very good battle.

#31 Ali_G

Ali_G
  • Member

  • 18,346 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:40

If you'd put it up after Abu Dhabi in 2010 it'd have got about 10 pages. Ahead of your time. :p

Istanbul of course has some monstrously fast corners (is that kink just before the DRS zone that the MotoGP guys raved about a fast corner in the F1 sense? They don't lift, but that's not the same thing...), and certainly there the overtaking was thought to be 'too easy'. It'll be interesting to see what the racing's like when we get to the proper circuits like Silverstone, Spa and Interlagos. I thought there would be more but it seems every track is a bloody hairpin-straight-hairpin one these days. :o


That's not even close to my first thread on the subject which I wrote circa 2001.

We'll see some incredible amounts of passing down the Kemmel straight this year I predict. DRS or no DRS.

#32 oetzi

oetzi
  • Member

  • 2,987 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 01 June 2011 - 23:47

Is that true? Do you have any links to technical data or analysis?

Not saying it's bollocks, and obviously something more than DRS has changed, but I haven't read anything conclusive one way or the other yet. KERS must help but theoretically everyone has it. We see a lot of passes outside DRS zones these days. From what I can tell most people seem to be pointing towards the Pirellis as the main factor (Canada 2010 wasn't short of overtaking, was it), but again, some sensible laptime analyses would help.


Wouldn't drivers using KERS to defend against the DRS make them more vulnerable to cars which are allowed to deploy DRS but don't necessarily use their KERS at the same time, and the foloowing car could therefore use KERS elsewhere on the circuit to gain an advantage. Which would mean that the DRS zone also promotes passing outside the DRS zone.

Outside of the tyres, which are clearly a huge factor.


#33 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,743 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:33

Well of course, never been different, and how could it be? (Or why should it be?)


well if we look at spain, alonso and then vettel didnt really have to actully defend much did they?, so on that track not much happened still (better than bridgestone era atleast), id much rather a lack of overtaking from driver skill ( clever positioning and driving) than some invisible wall, or at x pace im pretty much untouchable.
more glocklike driving rather than the petrov/alonso follow the leader we had at abu dabi last year where petrov didnt really fight off alonso, he just drove around in front of him.


i think the last turn at borcalona was the issue, its flat in clean air, but not in dirty air, so despite the 800metre drs zone or whatever it didnt make much difference, they couldnt catch up in time, but nearly could sometimes... probably old tyre vs new tyre would help you get past by quite abit though, but for same age tyres it wasnt enough.




#34 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,743 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:37

the DRS does help the following car close back up, even if it doesnt overtake in the drs zone, so i think its effect is bigger that drs/nondrs overtakes stats would make out

#35 KnucklesAgain

KnucklesAgain
  • Member

  • 4,822 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 June 2011 - 07:08

well if we look at spain, alonso and then vettel didnt really have to actully defend much did they?, so on that track not much happened still (better than bridgestone era atleast), id much rather a lack of overtaking from driver skill ( clever positioning and driving) than some invisible wall, or at x pace im pretty much untouchable.
more glocklike driving rather than the petrov/alonso follow the leader we had at abu dabi last year where petrov didnt really fight off alonso, he just drove around in front of him.


i think the last turn at borcalona was the issue, its flat in clean air, but not in dirty air, so despite the 800metre drs zone or whatever it didnt make much difference, they couldnt catch up in time, but nearly could sometimes... probably old tyre vs new tyre would help you get past by quite abit though, but for same age tyres it wasnt enough.


I know what you were saying (but thanks for elaborating :) ). My question was just how you would *ever* expect a car to overtake the other car when they have the same speed, or why it would be desirable.

#36 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,743 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 03 June 2011 - 00:45

it happens in gt2 and motorbikes :)

#37 Marbles

Marbles
  • Member

  • 550 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 03 June 2011 - 01:14

Moreover, check out a Star Mazda Series race. Those little beasties slip stream each other to death and it results in amazing racing.