324 replies to this topic

[flyer121]

I always considered Lewis to be the best overtaker in F1 perhaps of all time. However looking at a few past races it doesnt seem the same anymore.

Has the skill itself gone down a few notches?
Is he getting affected by "RBR domination"?
Is he growing older and careful ? Or growing older and reflexes are slower?
Or maybe his car is not up to the job of overtaking anymore?
Or perhaps with the DRS / tyres drama - overtaking is not really what it was before and for some weird reason affected Lewis.

What do you guys think ? Lets have an honest discussion even tho I am not really a fan and a lot of people will feel that it is an attack on Lewis.
But it is not ! I think even fans want to analyse this aspect.

We may even compare his overtaking abilities to other drivers.

Edited by flyer121, 01 June 2011 - 19:56.

[rhukkas]

His overtaking skills are fine. What isn't fine is drivers not being able to use their mirrors, eyes, and brains.

[Looserke]

I always considered Lewis to be the best overtaker in F1 perhaps of all time. However looking at a few past races it doesnt seem the same anymore.

Has the skill itself gone down a few notches?
Is he getting affected by "RBR domination"?
Is he growing older and careful ? Or growing older and reflexes are slower?
Or maybe his car is not up to the job of overtaking anymore?

What do you guys think ? Lets have an honest discussion even tho I am not really a fan and a lot of people will feel that it is an attack on Lewis.
But it is not ! I think even fans want to analyse this aspect.

We may even compare his overtaking abilities to other drivers like Vettel for instance ...

Let's compare to Vettel...

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[Palmero]

His overtaking skills are fine. What isn't fine is drivers not being able to use their mirrors, eyes, and brains.

[Tauhid]

I'd say it's about the same. Just his timing may have gone down in quality. But nonetheless, he is the best overtaker in the grid, you have to admit it even if you are not his fan. His overtakes in China speaks in volumes, I don't see anyone near his standards right now. This is his prime age to shine, so he definitely needs a fast car to win some championships and beat the rest in the grid. Compared to Vettel, Hamilton is better, but right now Vettel is quite better than what we have seen last year. At the end of the day, Wins>Overtakes, so definitely the class leading driver is Vettel right now. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are the fastest drivers in the grid, give them a fast car and they will blow the field away. Vettel is doing just that.

[flyer121]

I'd say it's about the same. Just his timing may have gone down in quality. But nonetheless, he is the best overtaker in the grid, you have to admit it even if you are not his fan. His overtakes in China speaks in volumes, I don't see anyone near his standards right now. This is his prime age to shine, so he definitely needs a fast car to win some championships and beat the rest in the grid. Compared to Vettel, Hamilton is better, but right now Vettel is quite better than what we have seen last year. At the end of the day, Wins>Overtakes, so definitely the class leading driver is Vettel right now. Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are the fastest drivers in the grid, give them a fast car and they will blow the field away. Vettel is doing just that.

Well - thats true.
Even I consider that winning is the important thing but overtaking is what makes for an interesting race.

Just looking at overtaking and ignoring the other issues like Quali pace / race pace etc , I feel that I am watching a different Lewis.
Maybe its a better "driver" Lewis but I am not sure its the better "overtaker" Lewis.

[undersquare]

Curious how the 'has got worse' option has two exclamation marks...

in such an honest discussion

[Zava]

Let's compare to Vettel...

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

okay, let's do it!
http://youtu.be/wvHFVsNlQdQ?t=2m15s
troll.

[Lights]

It was great when he started and it's still great.

[flyer121]

Let's compare to Vettel...

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Thats not comparison but I will leave you to it.
Maybe I shouldnt have added the comparison to a specific driver bit at all.

Edited by flyer121, 01 June 2011 - 19:57.

[flyer121]

Curious how the 'has got worse' option has two exclamation marks...

in such an honest discussion

Yeah , going down would be more shocking - wouldnt it?
Seems I rate him better than some others ..

[jonnoj]

Gawd not another Hamilton thread.

Hamiltons overtaking is okay. The drivers who can't overtake now know they can shaft Hamilton by cutting him up.
RIP overtaking in F1.

[Trust]

No F-duct no good overtake

[King Six]

I think he's been unlucky regarding his overtakes, what everyone has been saying is "you make your own luck" but you really don't, either the driver infront sees you and doesn't turn in, or they don't and they turn in, or they see you and turn in anyway.

It's always been like that, but situational awareness in an F1 car is worse than ever these days, maybe abit less so since they banned outboard mirrors, but they have the massive covers on since 2008, plus the HANS etc...

The safety is essentially making it harder for drivers to defend properly.

The culture is to blame the guy who initiated the overtake.

[prty]

Hamilton had a lot of marginal calls in 2007-2008 that went his way. But they were not always going to go his way.

[hunnylander]

'It takes two to tango'




To overtake is always a risk and things depend on the overtaken too. Also in Monaco the risk is even higher and the chance to a problemfree overtaking is much slimmer.

He pushed very hard and took a lot of risks, even with the penalties, he got the result! He couldn't drive like a nanny, he needed to overtake, otherwise he would have been lapped and finished much worse, possibly out of the points.

Edited by hunnylander, 01 June 2011 - 20:08.

[Unbiased]

Around the paddock in Monaco people were mocking the new Crash Kid Hamilton and how ironic it is that the team who came up with that phrase is eating it.

Hamilton's race was a shocker, an amateur attempt faltering left and right. If Alonso or Vettel had driven around like that in Monaco, the same people praising Hamilton now (his die hard fans) would be totally mocking them and asking their super license to be revoked.

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

Hamilton has been driving less consistent since halfway 2010, because he sees Vettel erasing his accomplishments, record-wise. He absolutely dislikes Vettel, even more than he does Alonso. When the cameras are off he has no problem showing this.

His driving skills are going down since Monza 2010, that is pretty obvious. He needs to snap out of it if he wants to stay in the top 3 of current best drivers.

[robefc]

Around the paddock in Monaco people were mocking the new Crash Kid Hamilton and how ironic it is that the team who came up with that phrase is eating it.

Hamilton's race was a shocker, an amateur attempt faltering left and right. If Alonso or Vettel had driven around like that in Monaco, the same people praising Hamilton now (his die hard fans) would be totally mocking them and asking their super license to be revoked.

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

Hamilton has been driving less consistent since halfway 2010, because he sees Vettel erasing his accomplishments, record-wise. He absolutely dislikes Vettel, even more than he does Alonso. When the cameras are off he has no problem showing this.

His driving skills are going down since Monza 2010, that is pretty obvious. He needs to snap out of it if he wants to stay in the top 3 of current best drivers.

So much unbiased inside info from you across so many threads

[Totza]

No F-duct no good overtake

Yeah bro thats exactly it

[Totza]

Around the paddock in Monaco people were mocking the new Crash Kid Hamilton and how ironic it is that the team who came up with that phrase is eating it.

Hamilton's race was a shocker, an amateur attempt faltering left and right. If Alonso or Vettel had driven around like that in Monaco, the same people praising Hamilton now (his die hard fans) would be totally mocking them and asking their super license to be revoked.

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

Hamilton has been driving less consistent since halfway 2010, because he sees Vettel erasing his accomplishments, record-wise. He absolutely dislikes Vettel, even more than he does Alonso. When the cameras are off he has no problem showing this.

His driving skills are going down since Monza 2010, that is pretty obvious. He needs to snap out of it if he wants to stay in the top 3 of current best drivers.

What? the only person to beat Vettel this season has been Hamilton, if what you're saying was true then surely he wouldn't of been able to win a race? since according to you his skills have gone down? in Barcelona he pushed Vettel to the limit, yet surely if his skills have gone down then he wouldn't of been able to do that?

[Kubiccia]

In GP2 Lewis had more class, elegant drive and could overtake with skill.

Nowadays, he ocasionally goes on a tilt(poker term) and sometimes divebomb the car expecting the car ahead to let him past.

In Top Gear there was a segment about Senna some months ago and Brundle discussed this method of overtaking over used by Senna, which is: "I'm gonna throw it in the inside in a very clumpsy way and if you don't steer out of the corner, we'll crash"

Kobayashi did this on his first manouvre on Alguersuari(Suzuka last year) and last Sunday on Sutil.

Lewis and Koba are the best overtakers of current F1 but sometimes they just go for a non-existant gap and take the other car out, like with Massa and Maldonado.

PS: Curiously, Piquet Jr schooled Hamilton many times in GP2 and in F1 too, despite having inferior cars. I remember Piquet holding, very beautiful and fairly, Lewis on a couple of races and IIRC he also overtook Lewis a couple of times in F1.

Edited by Kubiccia, 01 June 2011 - 20:37.

[trogggy]

Around the paddock in Monaco people were mocking the new Crash Kid Hamilton and how ironic it is that the team who came up with that phrase is eating it.

Hamilton's race was a shocker, an amateur attempt faltering left and right. If Alonso or Vettel had driven around like that in Monaco, the same people praising Hamilton now (his die hard fans) would be totally mocking them and asking their super license to be revoked.

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

Hamilton has been driving less consistent since halfway 2010, because he sees Vettel erasing his accomplishments, record-wise. He absolutely dislikes Vettel, even more than he does Alonso. When the cameras are off he has no problem showing this.

His driving skills are going down since Monza 2010, that is pretty obvious. He needs to snap out of it if he wants to stay in the top 3 of current best drivers.

It's nice to have a real insider on the forum to give us the facts. Thanks.

Did they give you a good seat in the stewards' room?

[Mika Mika]

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

The madonado move that even Brundle now attributes blame to madonado now? I'm sure it was a trampoline ling discussion you had with yourself

[Grenada]

His overtaking skills are fine. What isn't fine is drivers not being able to use their mirrors, eyes, and brains.

This!

[peter89]

Around the paddock in Monaco people were mocking the new Crash Kid Hamilton and how ironic it is that the team who came up with that phrase is eating it.

Hamilton's race was a shocker, an amateur attempt faltering left and right. If Alonso or Vettel had driven around like that in Monaco, the same people praising Hamilton now (his die hard fans) would be totally mocking them and asking their super license to be revoked.

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

Hamilton has been driving less consistent since halfway 2010, because he sees Vettel erasing his accomplishments, record-wise. He absolutely dislikes Vettel, even more than he does Alonso. When the cameras are off he has no problem showing this.

His driving skills are going down since Monza 2010, that is pretty obvious. He needs to snap out of it if he wants to stay in the top 3 of current best drivers.

And you call yourself unbiased, right?
Man, just look at these pictures. For me, it is a racing accident. As I already said, Maldonado didn't want to score big points, he wanted to became a victim. But only he is to blame. He knew Hamilton was there, despite that he lied after the race in an interview that he hasnt seen him.
For me, this kind of behaviour is pathetic rather than racing and trying to overtake someone

[Aieljose]

His overtaking skills are fine. Still one of the best in f1. You can't judge too heavily based on the last 2 races because overtaking is very difficult at both monaco and spain. He has made his fair share of overtakes during the rest of the races this year. Might even have the most. Hamiltons problem is he needs to learn when it's ok to risk and overtake and when it's wiser just to back off. He is a bit reckless at times. It's the reason He had so many DNF's in the second half last year and why he was lucky to finish 6th last sunday.

[robefc]

The madonado move that even Brundle now attributes blame to madonado now? I'm sure it was a trampoline ling discussion you had with yourself

And anthony davidson doesn't think he should have got a penalty for the first one.

Which doesn't mean either of them are right but quite clearly shows that there's a massive overreaction about how bad lewis's moves were and hiw reckkess his driving supposedly was.

[Kubiccia]

His overtaking skills are fine. What isn't fine is drivers not being able to use their mirrors, eyes, and brains.

wrost post I see in a very long time.

This is not racing at all.

So, are drivers supposed to park the car outside the track once they see Lewis(or any other)in their mirrors?

You have to be side-by-side to take the corner and not collide your front wheel with the back of the car behind. This is just using the car in front to brake your car.

Lewis just did a n00b job as Rubens did to Rosberg in Australia this year.

I wouldn't punish Lewis on the Maldonado crash because Pastor could have made it more clear that there wasn't a gap, but still it was a clumpsy move from Lewis.

Edited by Kubiccia, 01 June 2011 - 20:45.

[nbhb]

I voted the middle ine option.
Lewis until this year has had always an advantage, the best car in terms of speed (Mercedes engine, best KERS, best F-Duct). This year it's DRS which counts and McLaren doesn't have the best system still yet.

[Zava]

And you call yourself unbiased, right?
Man, just look at these pictures. For me, it is a racing accident. As I already said, Maldonado didn't want to score big points, he wanted to became a victim. But only he is to blame. He knew Hamilton was there, despite that he lied after the race in an interview that he hasnt seen him.
For me, this kind of behaviour is pathetic rather than racing and trying to overtake someone

yeah, because it is so much better to finish in the wall than scoring your and your teams first points that year, let alone 8 points at a time!

[CoolFiltered]

On the evidence of last week its deteriorated.

[sharo]

I always considered Lewis to be the best overtaker in F1 perhaps of all time.
................

I thought this to be a serious thread.

Lewis has lost nothing of his abilities. Simply had a bad day where his brain was a side spectator. Happens to anyone, even to the best of all times.

[100cc]

I think Hamilton is a bit of a douche and on road courses I don't like his "shove it in there" moves because you can find better spots - but around monaco that's the only way you're getting past (or you simply can't afford to wait for a better spot).

Webber's move on Kobayashi was in the same league as all of Hamilton's moves the only difference was he didn't get turned in on. That was a "brilliant move" according to the BBC commentators. (I thought it was too)

No he hasn't gotten worse he's done the same moves all the time just unlucky this time.

Edited by 100cc, 01 June 2011 - 20:50.

[Augurk]

'It takes two to tango'




To overtake is always a risk and things depend on the overtaken too. Also in Monaco the risk is even higher and the chance to a problemfree overtaking is much slimmer.

He pushed very hard and took a lot of risks, even with the penalties, he got the result! He couldn't drive like a nanny, he needed to overtake, otherwise he would have been lapped and finished much worse, possibly out of the points.

That's an extremely interesting picture!

Very interesting how the light on track changes over the course of a race.

[ImDDAA]

Lewis is still brilliant at overtaking but he's had to adjust his driving because the new tyres don't perfectly suit his style, this has neutered him to a certain degree. This weekend was a calamity, sure, but I don't judge drivers off of one race.

[oetzi]

His overtaking skills are very good, but at the moment he's frustrated. And it shows.

Particularly so in the first race this year where he saw a chance of a relatively easy win. And saw it go away.

And a race he is particularly keen to win.

I'll bet he'd admit that quicker than his fans.

[Stormsky68]

Interesting how the muppets Coulthard and Brundle see the 2 moves so differently

[Bonaventura]

He pushed very hard and took a lot of risks, even with the penalties, he got the result! He couldn't drive like a nanny, he needed to overtake, otherwise he would have been lapped and finished much worse, possibly out of the points.

(Despite damaged car , bad pit stop, and 2 penaltys still 6th)

the passes on Schumacher and Petrov were very fine
but like you say it takes 2 to tango

[Murdoch]

Lewis is still brilliant at overtaking but he's had to adjust his driving because the new tyres don't perfectly suit his style, this has neutered him to a certain degree. This weekend was a calamity, sure, but I don't judge drivers off of one race.

Can you take your measured response elsewhere please, if you hadn't noticed, this is fanboy vs fanboy!

They'll be comparing posters next

[ImDDAA]

Interesting how the muppets Coulthard and Brundle see the 2 moves so differently

To be fair to them they were commentating on the moves live, the live feed gave us an angle of the Maldanado incident from the side and it was all over very quickly. Brudle has viewed the other footage subsequently and has changed his mind on it. Coulthard wrote a piece standing up for or sympathizing with Lewis too, but it was more to do with his whole situation over the weekend.

[Skinnyguy]

His ability is beyond any doubt: he´s the simply the best overtaker.

But his attitude could be better. I´d hate to race him, I wouldn´t trust him at all, more or less the same feeling than when playing an "open" online race with unknown people in any videogame. I mean, I don´t expect anybody to show his nose from behind going into Turkey turn8 or Shangai turn1 as he did to Jenson. I don´t share his standards of raceable places and overtaking chances.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 01 June 2011 - 21:34.

[oetzi]

His ability is beyond any doubt: he´s the simply the best overtaker.

But his attitude could be better. I´d hate to race him, I wouldn´t trust him at all, more or less the same feeling than when playing an "open" online race with unknown people in any videogame. I mean, I don´t expect anybody to show his nose from behind going into Turkey turn8 or Shangai turn1 as he did to Jenson. I don´t share his standards of raceable places and overtaking chances.

Are you disagreeing with yourself?

[Skinnyguy]

Are you disagreeing with yourself?

No. At least I don´t think so . He´s very skilled, no doubt about that, but he´s not very reasonable sometimes. And to clarify I´m not talking about Monaco 2011.

[oetzi]

No. At least I don´t think so . He´s very skilled, no doubt about that, but he´s not very reasonable sometimes. And to clarify I´m not talking about Monaco 2011.

You just seem to say he's great at overtaking, but not at choosing where or when.

[Watkins74]

Around the paddock in Monaco people were mocking the new Crash Kid Hamilton and how ironic it is that the team who came up with that phrase is eating it.

Hamilton's race was a shocker, an amateur attempt faltering left and right. If Alonso or Vettel had driven around like that in Monaco, the same people praising Hamilton now (his die hard fans) would be totally mocking them and asking their super license to be revoked.

The public doesn't know it, but right after he crashed out Madonado there was a serious discussion going on if he would get the black (no pun intended) flag or not.

Hamilton has been driving less consistent since halfway 2010, because he sees Vettel erasing his accomplishments, record-wise. He absolutely dislikes Vettel, even more than he does Alonso. When the cameras are off he has no problem showing this.

His driving skills are going down since Monza 2010, that is pretty obvious. He needs to snap out of it if he wants to stay in the top 3 of current best drivers.

Don't really agree with most of it but I did enjoy reading it.

[SCUDmissile]

his overtake on button in china shows no skill has been lost.

[ImDDAA]

I'm pretty sure 'unbiased' is a pseudonym account from one of the mods who's just having a laugh with us. It's a solid parody, I give a 7 on 10.

[Skinnyguy]

You just seem to say he's great at overtaking, but not at choosing where or when.

Yeah that´s it.

China 2011 pass on Jenson is a good example. I wouldn´t see that coming at all if I were Jenson. A full car lenght behind into THAT little braking zone, first of all I wouldn´t feel the need to defend, and then I probably wouldn´t expect anyone diving from that position, and I would use a normal line. That was amazing driving from Jenson. But maybe I´m worng, that move is normal and predictable, and that´s why Button is a F1 driver and I´m not.

[ausf1webber]

Usually one metre is the difference between a good move and a dive bomb. In case some of you are unaware Lewis is not the only driver being paid big money to drive the cars fast and not move over for Lewis Hamilton or to make Lewis look good. He claimed Massa pulled down on him and yet at that particular hairpin the cars require full lock to just get around according to just about every commentator over the years so Massa must have stretched the steering. Lewis at the moment has an attitude problem something no doubt Vettel will eventually suffer from, both came into F1 and straight into the car of the moment unlike the majority who spend at least a season down the back in a Minardi, Virgin etc. As last year there are a lot of good drivers in good cars even the Red Bull's are not that much quicker on race day and would probably not have won any where near as many races if they did not start from pole every race. Lewis likes being the centre of attention which he was for those first few seasons now its Vettel and just to add to the problem rather than Button fading away he is starting to look a lot closer to Hamilton, his constant near every race brake locking flat spotting tyres is his and only his problem. Leaving his qualifying to the last minute no time Q3 would not just be a team decision I would not mind betting it was more Lewis's idea to grab pole in a blaze of glory in the dying minutes from Vettel and so propelling himself back into the lime light but it back fired and saw him start seventh. Its okay to be a fan but please with both eyes open and some balance.

[oetzi]

Yeah that´s it.

China 2011 pass on Jenson is a good example. I wouldn´t see that coming at all if I were Jenson. A full car lenght behind into THAT little braking zone, first of all I wouldn´t feel the need to defend, and then I probably wouldn´t expect anyone diving from that position, and I would use a normal line. That was amazing driving from Jenson. But maybe I´m worng, that move is normal and predictable, and that´s why Button is a F1 driver and I´m not.