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Shocking failure of tyre barrier at Hungaroring in Auto GP race


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#1 RC127

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 11:31

If I can find video I will post here later, but there was just a [fairly] innocuous crash at T1 in the Auto GP race and the car went straight through the belted tyre wall into a second tyre barrier like it wasn't there.

Wouldn't Charlie Whiting have something to say about how the tyre wall behaved in this crash?

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#2 D A

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 11:34

They didn't even bother to fix it before the SC went in, just left it as is.

Looks like they managed to get Ceccon 1 lap ahead of everyone else during the SC. Amazing.

Edited by D A, 04 June 2011 - 11:36.


#3 MinT

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 11:43

Yes - decided to switch off - absurd farce of a race/series by the looks.

Edited by MinT, 04 June 2011 - 11:44.


#4 Bleu

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:49

Here is the crash.


#5 Myrvold

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:59

It should've been a bit better, but I kinda liked the way it worked.

#6 DanardiF1

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:00

If I can find video I will post here later, but there was just a [fairly] innocuous crash at T1 in the Auto GP race and the car went straight through the belted tyre wall into a second tyre barrier like it wasn't there.

Wouldn't Charlie Whiting have something to say about how the tyre wall behaved in this crash?


It looks to me like it's meant to do that... why else would there be a gap between the first belt and the main tyre wall? Seemed to dissapate a fair bit of the energy in the accident before the 2nd more hardy tyre wall then collected what was a much slower travelling car...

If there was just one big tyre wall there'd be a danger of the driver getting trapped underneath it (despite the belts) like Kovalainen did in Spain 2008. The 1st smaller row of tyres are there to take away the energy and make it a much smaller hit for the tyres behind it...

#7 showtime

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:03

Exactly, I don't see anything wrong there.

#8 TFLB

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:08

I don't see any problem with that. If there had been a wall behind it then that would be another matter, but if there's another tyre barrier it's fine.

#9 pingu666

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:09

yeah its meant todo that, maybe tieing the front row tyres together maybe better, so it would move like a snake rather than scatering

#10 montoyasminion

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:14

Yea its very shocking that the tire barrier did exactly what it was designed to do.

#11 engel

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:19

That's what the first layer is supposed to do, dissipate some of the energy before the car hits the more rigid second layer

#12 hihynynhhf

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:38

I understand the logic of that barrier design. However, what scares me is the possibility - which is clearly illustrated by the video- of debris entering the cockpit. Not only that, but it fails to slow the car down, so the possibility of injury being incurred as the car crashes through the tyre wall is made much greater. Frther more, the design- in the way that the rubber conveyor belt disintegrated- appears to be poor, cheap and has an apparent lack of sohpistication Tepco barriers have been proven to be much more effective.

The whole thing reminds me of that catch-fencing from the 70s and 80s. An appalling device that sends shivers down my spine whenever I watch past races on youtube.

#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:41

Well, no. The tires do slow the car down. And drivers get hit by the remains of tire walls without problem. It's when you're going full speed and you hit a tire with a rim that you tend to get injured.

#14 Pharazon

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:44

looked fine to me... seemed to be a much less impact than for example, perez's

#15 R2D2

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:47

Of course, it'd have been much safer if the belt hadn't broken and had just pinged him back onto the track.

#16 chhatra

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:53

What the heck is AutoGP, first I've heard of it.

#17 Kucki

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:59

Clever way to place the tyre barrier. The hit looked soft if you consider the speed he was going.

#18 Hypnotise

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 17:03

What the heck is AutoGP, first I've heard of it.

Old A1 GP cars if I may recall.

Edited by Hypnotise, 04 June 2011 - 17:03.


#19 Ise

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 17:10

Old A1 GP cars if I may recall.


...and big cash prizes for the winners thanks to being sponsered by a Poker League. The drivers are a mix of promising young guns and GP2 rejects/lack-of-cash runners. So theres a bit of almost everything in here.

As for the crash, no problems at all. I can't see the reason to complain.

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#20 midgrid

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 18:46

Formerly known as Euroseries 3000, and various other names involving 3000, because it used old-specification F3000 chassis from the international series.

#21 RC127

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 19:04

I think my concern was the way that the loose tyres scattered all over the place. Maybe I got overexcited at the time I posted, I think the person who said the double layer design "was sound, but that the first layer should have bowed like a snake, not disintegrated" had it right.

Edited by RC127, 04 June 2011 - 19:28.


#22 4L3X

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 19:09

I like it. I would go full speed there no problem.

Just kidding. But I think it's supposed to be that way.

#23 Hairpin

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 19:17

I guess a main concern is to rebuild it after first car has broken it? Can they restart a race after that? My belief is that it should not have snapped like that.

#24 pingu666

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 19:58

watching it again its surprising how the belt just breaks cleanly. where ive see that sort of idea used before, at lime rock i think they had bundles of tyres held together so the car would push a entire block, and not pierce like that car did.



#25 Altitude

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 19:59

I understand the logic of that barrier design. However, what scares me is the possibility - which is clearly illustrated by the video- of debris entering the cockpit. Not only that, but it fails to slow the car down, so the possibility of injury being incurred as the car crashes through the tyre wall is made much greater. Frther more, the design- in the way that the rubber conveyor belt disintegrated- appears to be poor, cheap and has an apparent lack of sohpistication Tepco barriers have been proven to be much more effective.

The whole thing reminds me of that catch-fencing from the 70s and 80s. An appalling device that sends shivers down my spine whenever I watch past races on youtube.


You claim the tyre barrier failed to slow the car down, so how is it that the car never hit the armco barrier. To me it looks as if the first tyre wall worked perfectly. Could you also elaborate on Tepco barriers being proven more effective - I've never heard of them, or do I presume you mean TecPro barriers?.
Also, if you are so scared about debris entering a cockpit, have you considered that perhaps you should watch other sports instead?.

I agree, looking back that catch-fencing now looks crude and dangerous, but it was state of the art safety in the 70's and 80's.

#26 DanardiF1

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 20:02

I think my concern was the way that the loose tyres scattered all over the place. Maybe I got overexcited at the time I posted, I think the person who said the double layer design "was sound, but that the first layer should have bowed like a snake, not disintegrated" had it right.


Perhaps it shouldn't have broken yes, but all that was energy being taken away from the car. It did its job, but maybe the belt holding them was a bit old?

#27 patgaw

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 20:03

everything worked as it should there.

#28 Hairpin

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 20:08

everything worked as it should there.

Thanks. Can you explain the theory why the belt should break? As I said earlier, seems like they will have to stop the race for many hours to repair. Or days if they do not have a new belt lying around.

#29 jee

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 20:29

Shouldn't there be big packages of many tyres screwed together with a rubberband infront of them to keep cars not diving between them?
It just seems like the barrier exploded when the car went into it and only the second barrier did what it was supposed to do.

#30 Hippo

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 20:40

Looked fine to me. I only wonder about 2 things. First off, if that's how the barrier was supposed disintegrate on impact, why didn't they also have a plan on how to repair it quickly? And then, why did they resume the race without fixing it?

I can only assume the AutoGP races are organized rather chaotic?

#31 johnmhinds

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 21:00

I don't think it was that shocking, the accident was pretty low speed. It was a bit worrying to see the drivers head whip forward twice as he hits each barrier though.

I'm surprised that the first layer of tyres wasn't tied together. As we saw they aren't going to do anything to stop a car if they are just stacked like that.

Edited by johnmhinds, 04 June 2011 - 21:01.


#32 sharo

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 21:01

IMHO the only shocking thing in this matter is that some people see it as shocking :)

#33 Disgrace

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 21:28

What I find shocking is that people are watching this awful series full of terrible drivers driving in six-year-old cars.

#34 DanardiF1

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 21:30

What I find shocking is that people are watching this awful series full of terrible drivers driving in six-year-old cars.


:rotfl:

the merits of the barrier technology have created more interest than the series itself!

#35 Dudley

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 22:00

Another voice for "That's exactly what's supposed to happen".

#36 TeamSideways

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 22:32

the second set of tyres did the job perfectly because they are rear ended with a wall. but a 2 rows of old tyres with a gap after them will not do it for me

#37 Radoye

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 22:35

Yea its very shocking that the tire barrier did exactly what it was designed to do.

:up:

#38 Slyder

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 22:39

What I find shocking is that people are watching this awful series full of terrible drivers driving in six-year-old cars.


I guess even rejects have to be allowed to have their own fun.

#39 ashnathan

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:00

Pretty sure it was designed to take the first impact and ease it to the second I think its a good idea minus the flying tyre barrier.

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#40 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 04:38

Exactly, I don't see anything wrong there.


Nah the crash wasn't the highlight of the vid at all. It just shows that Lewis's discarded tyres are being used well. :D

#41 RC127

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:19

Thanks for all the contributions. Maybe I oversold things by using the word "shocking", but I would stick my neck out and say that there is no way that Charlie Whiting would let this type of tyre barrier be there for the Hungarian GP in a few weeks' time.

Would be fascinating to know if these types of incidents filter back to him (and he sees the video).

#42 Mary Popsins

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:24

Some people eat too much biscuits. They forget that good cakes are made of several layers (one of them being chocolate, generally).

#43 MinT

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 07:59

Agreed - the tyre barrier did what it was supposed to - but should they not have mended it before the restart ?

anyway - the shocking thing was the SC picking up the 2nd placed car not the new leader - thus allowing the only car that hadnt stopped to gain nearly a whole lap on the entire field at the restart - if only Flavio had thought if that in Singapore eh ?

#44 R2D2

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 08:24

Some people eat too much biscuits. They forget that good cakes are made of several layers (one of them being chocolate, generally).

Yeah, it would have been so much more shocking if they'd chosen to fill the gap with strawberry jam.

#45 Altitude

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:00

Thanks for all the contributions. Maybe I oversold things by using the word "shocking", but I would stick my neck out and say that there is no way that Charlie Whiting would let this type of tyre barrier be there for the Hungarian GP in a few weeks' time.

Would be fascinating to know if these types of incidents filter back to him (and he sees the video).


I could be wrong, but I think you will find that the barrier has been like this for at least 3 years (including the Grand Prix), so it is probably the preferred type for this corner, It is only double layer in the 'head-on' position where a brake failure at high speed into a slow corner could lead to an accident, and is also found at other points on the circuit.
Perhaps the Charlie & co will request ammendments to the design (perhaps stronger belts or stronger ties holding the tyres together), but overall my take on it would be that the barrier stopped the car safely, and also without major visible damage.

#46 SimMaker

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:18

Who remembers the short era where they used ...what was it? Chicken Wire, in multiple layers, to "catch" a car if it came off the track? Often tangling up the drivers too.

#47 g1n

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:23

Who remembers the short era where they used ...what was it? Chicken Wire, in multiple layers, to "catch" a car if it came off the track? Often tangling up the drivers too.



that sounds like fun :drunk:

OP. the barrier's did what they should.

#48 dau

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:28

What I find shocking is that people are watching this awful series full of terrible drivers driving in six-year-old cars.

It's not that bad and the cars are still fine. The SC driver was pretty awful though.

#49 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:54

Really I cannot see any real problem with that tyre stack. The car was not really even damaged. The only problem is once damaged it is hard to repair quickly, but how many races continue with damaged tyres stacks? Heaps.
As for Whiting and F1. Where did they last race? Oh yeah Monaco, a place that F1 outgrew 50 years ago

#50 Hairpin

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:53

Really I cannot see any real problem with that tyre stack. The car was not really even damaged. The only problem is once damaged it is hard to repair quickly, but how many races continue with damaged tyres stacks? Heaps.
As for Whiting and F1. Where did they last race? Oh yeah Monaco, a place that F1 outgrew 50 years ago

Problem is that a track inspected by the FiA and if the run-offs and security measurements are changed after the inspection, it would need another inspection. I can imagine quite heavy law suits if the second car that crashes leads to injuries. It can not be true that they have designed that to be a one crash only solution.