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Sutil gained from red flag which he caused


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#1 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 12:49

No-one seems to be talking about this, so I thought I'd dive in.

In Monaco, Sutil hit the barrier and shortly afterwards caused a multiple pile-up.

I'm not saying he did it on purpose, no doubt his brakes and steering were not working too well.

During the red flag, his car was presumably repaired, although everyone was talking about Lewis, and the leaders who could change tyres.

In principle, should it be possible for a driver to gain points in this way? It doesn't seem to me to be a good idea to allow a driver to benefit from causing an accident.

Edited by BillBald, 04 June 2011 - 12:50.


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#2 King Six

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 12:57

It depends on how much he 'caused' the accident, he didn't exactly hit anyone. I don't think he even touched anyone, if anything Kobayashi barged into him earlier which might have been the cause for his tyre failure later on. But ultimately that accident was a racing incident on behalf of all the drivers involved.



#3 mlsnoopy

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:03

Who cares about Sutil

What do you think about Hamilton and his performance?


#4 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:04

He cut the chicane to try and let others through without getting in their way when he picked upto the puncture. For me he didn't cause the red flag in any way shape or form. He wasn't the 1 that caused the pile up as such (you could argue Hamilton did by slamming on the brakes so suddenly, though even that would be a bit harsh). The only reason the red flag came out was because of the injury to Petrov (normally it'd just be a safety car), and Alguersuari couldn't really avoid Hamilton, and had Petrov not ended up in the barrier he'd have ended up in the back of Alguersuari, so for me, Sutil didn't cause the red flag at all. To say he caused the accident/red flag is a bit harsh as far as I'm concerned, so to say he gained from causing an accident is wrong.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 04 June 2011 - 13:04.


#5 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:04

Petrov caused the red, basically.

#6 scheivlak

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:05

In principle, should it be possible for a driver to gain points in this way? It doesn't seem to me to be a good idea to allow a driver to benefit from causing an accident.

The same can be said of Hamilton (/dives behind the bushes)  ;)

#7 robefc

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:07

Who cares about Sutil

What do you think about Hamilton and his performance?


Doesn't take long...

He cut the chicane to try and let others through without getting in their way when he picked upto the puncture. For me he didn't cause the red flag in any way shape or form. He wasn't the 1 that caused the pile up as such (you could argue Hamilton did by slamming on the brakes so suddenly, though even that would be a bit harsh). The only reason the red flag came out was because of the injury to Petrov (normally it'd just be a safety car), and Alguersuari couldn't really avoid Hamilton, and had Petrov not ended up in the barrier he'd have ended up in the back of Alguersuari, so for me, Sutil didn't cause the red flag at all. To say he caused the accident/red flag is a bit harsh as far as I'm concerned, so to say he gained from causing an accident is wrong.



#8 Tsarwash

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:08

Who cares about Sutil

What do you think about Hamilton and his performance?


Why don't you find out for yourself ? It's not like BillBald has not publically posted his opinions.

http://forums.autosp...sult_type=posts


#9 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:25

Who cares about Sutil

What do you think about Hamilton and his performance?


I think you're joking.  ;)

#10 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:35

He cut the chicane to try and let others through without getting in their way when he picked upto the puncture. For me he didn't cause the red flag in any way shape or form. He wasn't the 1 that caused the pile up as such (you could argue Hamilton did by slamming on the brakes so suddenly, though even that would be a bit harsh). The only reason the red flag came out was because of the injury to Petrov (normally it'd just be a safety car), and Alguersuari couldn't really avoid Hamilton, and had Petrov not ended up in the barrier he'd have ended up in the back of Alguersuari, so for me, Sutil didn't cause the red flag at all. To say he caused the accident/red flag is a bit harsh as far as I'm concerned, so to say he gained from causing an accident is wrong.


OK, it's more a matter of principle which I'm concerned with.

Many years ago, we saw Schumi apparently using his damaged car to take out Hill and win the WDC.

Maybe we shouldn't blame Schumi, even assuming he did it deliberately. He would have been following in a fine tradition established by Prost and Senna of winning the WDC by causing an accident.

Nowadays we hope (?) that winning the title in that way would not be considered acceptable. But it seems to me that the FIA, who are often well over the top in punishing accidental comings-together, should at least make sure that a driver can never benefit from causing an accident. And that should apply even if his actions are clearly not deliberate, and even if other drivers can be considered to be partly to blame.



#11 Starish

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:38

It depends on how much he 'caused' the accident, he didn't exactly hit anyone. I don't think he even touched anyone, if anything Kobayashi barged into him earlier which might have been the cause for his tyre failure later on. But ultimately that accident was a racing incident on behalf of all the drivers involved.


At first I thought that, but now after hearing Buemi's view on TFL, he said Sutil's LR hit the wall and then the tyre came loose or something, so blaming KOB might be wrong of us.

#12 johnmhinds

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:39

He gained by dropping from 5th-6th to 7th and ending the race a lap down?

Nice logic. :drunk:

Edited by johnmhinds, 04 June 2011 - 13:43.


#13 apoka

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 13:47

As far as I remember, Sutil did not cause the red flag (or at least only quite indirectly). The pile-up happened behind him and could have been avoided. Furthermore, Kobayashi hit Sutil earlier, which basically ruined his race.

#14 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:34

He gained by dropping from 5th-6th to 7th and ending the race a lap down?

Nice logic. :drunk:


After hitting the barrier, he wouldn't have scored at all, if not for the red flag. I'm not saying he thought 'The best thing for me right now would be a red flag'.


Edited by BillBald, 04 June 2011 - 14:35.


#15 BillBald

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:37

Kobayashi hit Sutil earlier, which basically ruined his race.


Yes, I think everyone was expecting a drive-thru for that.



#16 karne

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:41

Petrov caused the red, basically.


To be fair to Vitaly, he couldn't feel his legs and could feel pain in his back and had recurring back problems after his airborne moment in Malaysia. He did the smart thing.


I can see why people would suggest Sutil caused the accident; he came barrelling across the chicane and didn't even stop even though he was missing a rear tyre. Hamilton slams on the brakes to avoid him/is spooked by the sight of the FI coming toward him, bam bam bam, pile up. Basically, Sutil knew he had a major problem; he chose to continue across the chicane at considerable speed, and he'd have known full well that he would have trouble getting onto the track and staying out of the way.

#17 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:43

After hitting the barrier, he wouldn't have scored at all, if not for the red flag. I'm not saying he thought 'The best thing for me right now would be a red flag'.


How sure of that are you? He was 5th I believe at the time he hit the wall, and only suffered a puncture. He'd have been able to get back to the pits, change tyres, and still possibly come out in the points. There's also the fact that actually he didn't cause the red flag, Petrov did, in the sense that had Petrov not hit the wall and been injured, the race would've just been run under the SC before maybe a final 1 lap sprint. Also your comment of making sure people don't gain by causing accidents is (with all due respect) a bit silly in my opinion. Hamilton caused an accident with the Maldonado incident, and he gained, by moving up from 7th to 6th. Does that mean he should have his points taken away from him because he gained from it? There's been hundreds of collisions over the years where the driver who caused it has gained. To basically say no driver should EVER gain from causing an accident even if other drivers are also partly to blame, is just.........bonkers, because there's NO remotely sensible or realistic way of making that work. The only way you could, is basically if you DQ'd anyone who caused an accident but who didn't retire (doing it quickly so they couldn't gain later in the race/affect other peoples races), to ensure that regardless of what happens in the rest of the race, they can't benefit, and that's never going to happen.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 04 June 2011 - 14:43.


#18 Nivra

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:43

Who cares about Sutil

What do you think about Hamilton and his performance?

I don't know why.... but this just sounds a bit funny :lol:

#19 engel

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 14:49

Sutil pitted, changed tyres and rejoined 7th behind the SC. Red flag was irrelevant, thread is ridiculous

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#20 froggy22

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:01

i dont think there was much to repair was there? it was only a puncture so just change the tyre, no different to everyone else on the grid. and i dont think he caused the pile up either, he got out the way in the chicane. if i remember rightly, Sutil was a lap ahead of Heidfeld who was in 9th at the time of the crash so he would of repaired the puncture and still come out in the points anyway

#21 muramasa

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:02

No one caused the accident nor red flag. It just happened as a consequence.

#22 TFLB

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:08

Ridiculous that people blame Sutil for ther red flag. His tyres had gone, he was several seconds a lap slower than those behind him. Maldonado passed him at Tabac, forcing him onto the marbles. Marbles + worn-out tyres = crash. So he hit the barrier with his right rear, which immediately deflated. By that time he was heading into the swimming pool with three wheels. He had nowhere to go. Hamilton slammed on the brakes, Alguersuari hit Hamilton, Petrov crashed etc. And so what if he gained from it? Good for him I say, he drove a good race.

#23 rabbitleader

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:29

Lewis's race turned out to be a good scapegoat for a few drivers....

#24 sawyer_si

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:33

Sutil pitted, changed tyres and rejoined 7th behind the SC. Red flag was irrelevant, thread is ridiculous


Exactly, red flag actually hurt him quite a lot, since others got a free pitstop, he would've been on much better tires otherwise.

#25 ed24f1

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:36

Furthermore, Kobayashi hit Sutil earlier, which basically ruined his race.


I don't think the Kobayashi incident caused the puncture, rather his crash at Tabac just before the pile-up.

His tyres were obviously going off over a number of laps (even before the Kobayashi crash).

He was trying quite a long stint, and Force India aren't really known for good tyre life.

#26 R2D2

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:40

He wasn't the 1 that caused the pile up as such (you could argue Hamilton did by slamming on the brakes so suddenly, though even that would be a bit harsh).

This is a brilliant example that shows how fair and respectable all the stewards' decisions were that day. I mean, if they were really after Lewis then they'd have done him for that one. And doubtless many people will have explained why it wasn't harsh, too.


#27 R2D2

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 15:42

No-one seems to be talking about this, so I thought I'd dive in.

It has been mentioned several times at least, usually in retort to those appalled by Lewis' car being repaired, but it generally gets lost in the noise of people with other venom to spew.

#28 velgajski1

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:29

Doesn't take long...



:lol:

Brilliant!

#29 robefc

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:31

This is a brilliant example that shows how fair and respectable all the stewards' decisions were that day. I mean, if they were really after Lewis then they'd have done him for that one. And doubtless many people will have explained why it wasn't harsh, too.


Ridiculous but amusing he's back at the centre of another thread.

#30 R2D2

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:40

Simple answer is that "them's the rules". The rules aren't perfect, but if the race is red flagged only for a short time then there wouldn't be much time to fix any limping cars. And if lots of cars received minor (but normally race-ending) damage because of the incident then maybe people would be upset with only a handful of cars taking the restart.

The thing about changing tyres has been singled out though, due to the specific circumstances. What if loads of cars got punctures on travelling through the debris while attempting to form up the red flag grid?

#31 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 16:48

The thing about changing tyres has been singled out though, due to the specific circumstances. What if loads of cars got punctures on travelling through the debris while attempting to form up the red flag grid?


I think that's the ONLY remotely valid reason the FIA has for allowing tyre changes to take place under red flag conditions if it's red flagged due to a crash, rather than due to the weather.

#32 Bloggsworth

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 17:12

It depends on how much he 'caused' the accident, he didn't exactly hit anyone. I don't think he even touched anyone, if anything Kobayashi barged into him earlier which might have been the cause for his tyre failure later on. But ultimately that accident was a racing incident on behalf of all the drivers involved.


The accident was caused by Algy who wasn't paying attention, and drove over Hamilton. It was quite clear to everybody but Algy that Sutil was coming back on to the circuit and, that in the interests of safety, Hamilton was going to have to slow down, but never mind, it's only penalisable if you're Hamilton and trying to overtake slowcoaches...

Edited by Bloggsworth, 04 June 2011 - 17:13.


#33 skinnyman

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 20:30

Not the first time someone gains from banging the barriers in Monaco, certain driver won once because of doing that :drunk:

Edited by skinnyman, 04 June 2011 - 20:34.


#34 Disgrace

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 23:40

Not the first time someone gains from banging the barriers in Monaco, certain driver won once because of doing that :drunk:


Yeah seriously.

What do you suggest? We penalise drivers based on hindsight and fate?

#35 Wuzak

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 05:46

The accident was caused by Algy who wasn't paying attention, and drove over Hamilton. It was quite clear to everybody but Algy that Sutil was coming back on to the circuit and, that in the interests of safety, Hamilton was going to have to slow down, but never mind, it's only penalisable if you're Hamilton and trying to overtake slowcoaches...


To be fair to Algesuari, it's not as if Hamilton was right behind Sutil and had to slow suddenly. He was just caught out by Hamilton checking up.

And how lucky were the leaders to escape the crash?



#36 Wuzak

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 05:52

Simple answer is that "them's the rules". The rules aren't perfect, but if the race is red flagged only for a short time then there wouldn't be much time to fix any limping cars. And if lots of cars received minor (but normally race-ending) damage because of the incident then maybe people would be upset with only a handful of cars taking the restart.

The thing about changing tyres has been singled out though, due to the specific circumstances. What if loads of cars got punctures on travelling through the debris while attempting to form up the red flag grid?


The rules are unfortunate. And I think they are geared towards red flags ealier in races - before half way. It was unusual to have the race red flagged so near the end and not declared.

I think if the red flag is because of a monsoon, then fine. Allow them to adjust things, change to wet weather tyres. Repairs to cars, on the other hand, should only be conducted in the pit lane, IMO, and drivers whose cars need repairs should not get a freebie, as it were.

The biggest gain from the red flag was Hamilton - I doubt he would have been allowed to trundle around the track for the remaining laps with his rear wing hanging off. And, of corse, Vettel, who was about to run into severe tyre problems - problems that could have seen him lose 1st, and possibly could have sent him back to 4th or 5th.

#37 Mary Popsins

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 06:07

../.. And that should apply even if his actions are clearly not deliberate, and even if other drivers can be considered to be partly to blame.


No thank you. For once that the decisions seem to get fairer about a sport which used to be called racing.

#38 g1n

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 09:31

Petrov caused the red flag by refusing to get out of the car.

#39 karne

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:06

Petrov caused the red flag by refusing to get out of the car.


Petrov could not feel his legs, and had pain in his back. Given he had a previous back injury this season after his little airborne moment in Malaysia, he made a sensible choice to stay in the car.

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#40 fisssssi

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:14

Alonso Brazil 2003 anyone? Caused a red flag then ended up on the podium :) for sure there are others too. It's just a quirk of the red flag rules. Monaco was a bit different because the race was actually restarted.

Also there's the old story about Mansell at Adelaide 1986. His tyre exploded and he wrestled with the car to keep it out of the barrier and safely take it down the escape road. If he had let it hit the barrier and caused a red flag however, he would have been champion :D



#41 learningtobelost

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:28

Sutil pitted, changed tyres and rejoined 7th behind the SC. Red flag was irrelevant, thread is ridiculous


Ony because Petrov, was out of the race, which presumably wouldn;t have happend on its own. Either way, yes, ridiculous.

#42 learningtobelost

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 10:31

The biggest gain from the red flag was Hamilton - I doubt he would have been allowed to trundle around the track for the remaining laps with his rear wing hanging off. And, of corse, Vettel, who was about to run into severe tyre problems - problems that could have seen him lose 1st, and possibly could have sent him back to 4th or 5th.

Had Sutil not been in that situation (as this thread proposes) Lewis would have been in a better position as he ws more than likely to get ahead of Sutil (given that his laptimes were miles off the pace) and would have had the pace to catch Koba (again, old tyres). In the scenario you allude to, of no red flag, he'd have avoided the Maldonado incident, the press conference and all of the fallout that came afterwards... so maybe he didn't gain so much ;)


#43 BillBald

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:51

Sutil pitted, changed tyres and rejoined 7th behind the SC. Red flag was irrelevant, thread is ridiculous


OK, it looks like I might have got the wrong impression.

Watching what happened, I assumed that Sutil's car was out of control, having suspension and possible brake system damage.

In the light of what you are saying, it looks as though Sutil was just trying to get back to the pit as quickly as possible for a tyre change, and was showing a complete disregard for the drivers who were stacked up behind him.

So if any behaviour was dangerous and worthy of a penalty at Monaco, I think it would be Sutil's.

But I think you may be right, the red flag was not relevant.



#44 Disgrace

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 11:56

In the light of what you are saying, it looks as though Sutil was just trying to get back to the pit as quickly as possible for a tyre change, and was showing a complete disregard for the drivers who were stacked up behind him.

So if any behaviour was dangerous and worthy of a penalty at Monaco, I think it would be Sutil's.


What is more dangerous? Driving in the swimming pool section at the highest speed possible or effectively parking the car to let them through on the circuit? At Monaco? What should he do?

What about Hamilton driving around with a broken rear wing? Would you penalise that too?

#45 Tsarwash

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 17:40

If he had been driving around at high speed, then I'm pretty sure that he would have been black flagged. But he only drove at safety car speed or just above.

#46 Bunchies

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 18:21

Yes, I think everyone was expecting a drive-thru for that.


It nudged him off line but did not cause his puncture.

#47 apoka

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 18:58

The biggest gain from the red flag was Hamilton - I doubt he would have been allowed to trundle around the track for the remaining laps with his rear wing hanging off. And, of corse, Vettel, who was about to run into severe tyre problems - problems that could have seen him lose 1st, and possibly could have sent him back to 4th or 5th.

The statement is not correct. Another poster explained the Hamilton-part, but saying that Vettel could have been 4th or 5th is also wrong. If both Alonso and Button would have overtaken him, then he could still have pitted and remained 3rd as the gap was sufficiently big. Apart from that, there was no drop-off in Vettels laptime for almost 55 laps, so - unlike the Pirellis on other tracks - they seemed to be fairly stable and not fall off a cliff. Alonso behind him had fresher tyres, but they were also almost 40 laps old and he was already attacking as much as he could before the red flag. In summary, a podium was almost guaranteed for Vettel and I believe he would have been on P1 without the red flag.

#48 R2D2

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 19:56

Apart from that, there was no drop-off in Vettels laptime for almost 55 laps, so - unlike the Pirellis on other tracks - they seemed to be fairly stable and not fall off a cliff.

I think you've missed what "the cliff" means.


#49 BillBald

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 20:15

What is more dangerous? Driving in the swimming pool section at the highest speed possible or effectively parking the car to let them through on the circuit? At Monaco? What should he do?

What about Hamilton driving around with a broken rear wing? Would you penalise that too?


Hamilton drove around at safety car speed with a broken wing. Maybe not a good idea, but not at all comparable to what Sutil did.

Sutil knew that there was a pack of cars behind him who were all racing one another.

He had the space to slow right down and let the pack of cars past, then he could have limped back to the pits. I assumed that the impact with the wall had disabled his car to the point where it was out of his control. If he was intentionally driving in such a dangerous way, just to get back to the pits a bit sooner, he really needs a stiff penalty.

Edited by BillBald, 05 June 2011 - 20:19.


#50 apoka

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 12:32

I think you've missed what "the cliff" means.

I know what it means and I am not saying that it could not have happened in those last laps. I just don't think that it was as likely as most suggest, because he was very controlled (always 1:19s, drivers with tyre issues were much slower) with only 7 laps to go + 55 vs. 62 laps is not a huge difference + you need to be a lot faster in Monaco to overtake. Anyway, the main point was that he would have finished P3 and not P4/P5.