60 replies to this topic

[Formula Once]

The three 1980 Fittipaldi F7 were converted 1979 Wolfs, but is it known which Wolf chassis became which F7?

[David McKinney]

WR7 and WR8 became F7/01 and F7/02, but I'm not sure which was which
F7/03 was a new build for 1980

[Formula Once]

WR7 and WR8 became F7/01 and F7/02, but I'm not sure which was which
F7/03 was a new build for 1980

Thanks David

[Rob Ryder]

I can't remember the source but I have in my notes that WR7 became F7/2 and WR8 became F7/1.
Sorry I can't be more conclusive with the evidence...
Rob

[Michael Ferner]

That's what I recall, too - no source, either, sorry!

[Phil Mackley]

Rob and Michael seem to be spot on.

According to the 'Black Books', Emerson drove WR8 in Argentina 1980 (first race of the year), and Keke drove WR7. Cross checking it with Allen Browns excellent ORC site, Emerson is shown as F7/2 and Keke F7/1.

[Arjan de Roos]

WR7 and WR8 became F7/01 and F7/02, but I'm not sure which was which
F7/03 was a new build for 1980

But what about the WR9 then? Wolf brought only one car (WR9) to Canada and USA.

BTW the F7 only used the tub. The suspension was designed by others, wasn't it Fly Studio?

[Allen Brown]

David, Rob, Michael, hang your heads in shame. You are all so much better than this. Not noting your sources! Disgraceful!

The original source I noted was Jenks in Motor Sport but it also appears slightly more accessibly in the Autocourse "Chassis Log Book" 1980-1981 p44. The Black Books are right too - as we would expect of them - but I'm sure it's the original source that was wanted.

WR9 was retained by Walter Wolf so never converted to be a F7. Curiously, I have heard nothing of it for many years.

[Arjan de Roos]

Curiously, I have heard nothing of it for many years.

Also hiding for Finnish police?

[Formula Once]

First of all thanks for your input.

As for the Wolf, is this WR9?

http://www.csmaclubr...tions/index.php

Or were F7/1 and/or 2 converted back to Wolfs in the meantime (F7/3 is still an F7)?

[thatguy0101]

Nye's Autocourse 66-85 has a description. WR8 became F7/1 (usually Fittipaldi); WR7 became F7/2 (usually Rosberg). F7/3 was new, driven by Rosberg at Long Beach.

Edited by thatguy0101, 06 June 2011 - 23:51.

[Formula Once]

I thought I'd posted from Nye's Autocourse 66-85; IIRC, WR8 became F7/1 (usually Fittipaldi); WR7 became F7/2 (usually Rosberg). F7/3 was new, driven by Rosberg at Long Beach.

F7/3 was also used by Rosberg in practice/qualifying for the British GP (he DNQ-ed)

[Allen Brown]

First of all thanks for your input.

As for the Wolf, is this WR9?

http://www.csmaclubr...tions/index.php

Or were F7/1 and/or 2 converted back to Wolfs in the meantime (F7/3 is still an F7)?

No, not WR9. Andrew Smith has had that car for many, many years. I didn't know he had returned it to WR7 spec.

[Formula Once]

No, not WR9. Andrew Smith has had that car for many, many years. I didn't know he had returned it to WR7 spec.

So F7/2 became WR7 again? Which leaves the question what became of F7/1. I seem to remember a 1979 Wolf being for sale a couple of years, don't know if that was WR9 or 8...

[huayra]

If only 2 WR went to became F7...  What car is the third in Interlagos?

 

Looks like WR789 went to Fittipaldi.

 

Edited by huayra, 27 October 2014 - 22:39.

[funformula]

One monocoque is currently for sale, but which one?

http://racecarsdirec..._formula_1.html

[Allen Brown]

Looks like WR789 went to Fittipaldi.

 

 

No, only two.  We've covered this above.

[huayra]

I know it was covered but have you see the pic i posted of the 3 WR/F7 cars in Interlagos 80?  

[huayra]

Fun, the monocoque for sale is in South Africa and its been salvaged..  Im trying to determin which chassis is?

[Allen Brown]

I know it was covered but have you see the pic i posted of the 3 WR/F7 cars in Interlagos 80?  

 

See post 2.

[huayra]

Ok. So its quite accurate to say that the one in South Africa is the WR9 right? and 4 similar tubes were built.

Edited by huayra, 28 October 2014 - 12:51.

[uechtel]

Slightly away from the identity of the cars, but I understand the takeover was the whole team? Means the Fittipaldi took over not only the cars, but also the whole factory, tools, staff etc. Even Rosberg as driver alongside Emerson. So for 1980 can you say they were more or less operating the former Wolf team under a new company name, just like Wolf had done with the former Williams team? If so, then what became of the older Fittipaldi enterprise? Was it a true merger of both teams and if so how much of their old team did the Fittipaldis bring into the new enterprise?

 

And finally the question for the reason of all this. Wolf was not much more successful than Fittipaldi in 1979 so why should they have made that move? Did Wolf have better infrastructure, more personnel etc.?

[huayra]

Well, Wolf package includes Harvey and Rosberg..  And Fittipaldi cars in 79 were not that good...   As read in Shunt, WR cars were crap but with development they improve and its peak, i think, was the begining as F7s with some Divila touch...

 

I would like to know how hard the accident in Montreal was for the WR9 because theres no sense in making a new old car for 1980, but it has if WR9 was re manufactured and didnt worked as a F7-3 with some minor touch of Divila.

[Allen Brown]

Ok. So its quite accurate to say that the one in South Africa is the WR9 right? and 4 similar tubes were built.

 

No it's not accurate to say that.  It is complete speculation to say that WR9 is the bare chassis in South Africa, especially as WR9 was kept by Walter Wolf.  WR9 is more likely to be in a museum somewhere. 

[huayra]

Ok...  As long as we dont have info about WR9 location...  theres 2 cars completes... 1 in austria (maybe wolf car) 1 in brooklands...  What is clear in the for sale chasis is that the front end is so similar as the Divilas F8, so its possible that the chassis for sale was a F7 in the past then,

[funformula]

Looking closely at the monocoque for sale, it seems to be more an early Fittipaldi F8 (the later ones have a slightly different dash roll hoop section) rather than a Wolf WR9.

 

Here is a picture of a F8 in 1980 https://pandinigp.fi...paldi_mchic.jpg

This one is showing a Wolf http://barchetta.med...578_385.jpg.jpg

 

The most obvious differences are the size of the mounting hole for the pedals, the crashbox section and the dash roll hoop.

BTW: it seems to me that the dash bulkhead is missing in the monocoque for sale, so maybe this one was never completed to race spec.?

[huayra]

Yes. The picture is quite similar but the mounts of the antirollbar are not in the one for sale... As far as i know, Thats Emmos F8 in Zandvoort or Brands...

 

Ill try to contact Divila to see what can he tell me.

[Michael Ferner]

Slightly away from the identity of the cars, but I understand the takeover was the whole team? Means the Fittipaldi took over not only the cars, but also the whole factory, tools, staff etc. Even Rosberg as driver alongside Emerson. So for 1980 can you say they were more or less operating the former Wolf team under a new company name, just like Wolf had done with the former Williams team? If so, then what became of the older Fittipaldi enterprise? Was it a true merger of both teams and if so how much of their old team did the Fittipaldis bring into the new enterprise?
 
And finally the question for the reason of all this. Wolf was not much more successful than Fittipaldi in 1979 so why should they have made that move? Did Wolf have better infrastructure, more personnel etc.?

The way I understand it, Fittipaldi had a new sponsor and wanted to invest some money, while Wolf was tired of F1 and wanted to sell - a simple case of supply and demand. I'm not sure, but I believe the former had only a small base in England (Slough?), while Wolf had the old Williams factory in Reading. In the early years, Fittipaldi always tried to manufacture a true Brazilian F1 car, but by 1979 that had proved to be a dead end alley, so they tried the English kit car route. Didn't work out either...

[uechtel]

yes, such story could make sense.

[huayra]

No doubt about Fittipaldi taking over every asset of WR

[arttidesco]

Ok...   1 in brooklands...

 

I I have posted photo's of the car that is now in Brooklands elsewhere on this forum, museum thread (?) and I'd be very surprised if that car ever raced.

[huayra]

Maybe the car in the museum is the one crashed in Montreal...  Despite the weird front wing looks ok... It would be great if sum goes there and looks for an ID in the cockpit...

 

To know, we need pics of the F7 without bodywork.

 

This are pictures of the day Fitti guys took over wolf...  In the speech it says "Fittipaldi wings on WR9"...   Divilas speech was that Harvey P was not good in aero but good in structures..

http://pandinigp.wor...13-o-wolfpaldi/

[huayra]

1 in brooklands

1 in Austria (probably wr7)

 

In this pic of emmo, theres a blac tape over the dash that looks similar in the chassis for sale

 

[huayra]

 

 

 

[funformula]

It might clarify some aspects of the Wolf/Fittipaldi F7 case, if someone ask Jonathan Greaves http://www.jonathang...s.com/page4.htm as he was part of the team back then.

I think he is the person second from left in the picture below.

I asked him some years ago in a Brabham related issue and he was very helpful.

 

 

Edited by funformula, 29 October 2014 - 08:20.

[huayra]

Reply from Brooklands Museum

 

According to the owner of the car we have on display it is Wolf WR7 which was converted to the Fittipaldi F7-2.

I hope this is of help with your research.

 

According to the owner is not an accurate source but we keep it as something (unless owner is Keke Rosberg)

[Michael Ferner]

Why so fixed on Rosberg's (good or bad) credibility?

[huayra]

Think i found sum...  Look at the switches on the left to the steering wheel in Brooklands car.

 

 

Now take the black cover and look at the chasis for sale...

 

[funformula]

 

 

 

OK, that´s the proof the chassis for sale has a dash bulkhead.

It looks very F8`ish to me, look here for comparison http://contosdaf1.fi...nsglen1980e.jpg

[huayra]

Yes Fun, i went to that pic as soon as i found out that... but the lack of antirollbar mounts makes me think that maybe is the WR? modified.

[dolomite]

Taken by me at Brands Hatch 1980. Sorry I don't know which chassis this one is.

 

[huayra]

Thats the F8-0 ... Theres pictures of Emmo driving the F7 and the F8 during practice at brands 80

[funformula]

Thats the F8-0 ... Theres pictures of Emmo driving the F7 and the F8 during practice at brands 80

 

According to Allen Brown, Emerson Fittipaldi only drove F8-1 in all the races in 1980. The car in the picture can´t be F8-1 because of the large cut out section for the front top rocker-arms. F8-1 had significantly smaller cut out sections.

Edited by funformula, 31 October 2014 - 08:20.

[huayra]

Ok..  But i read somewhere that F8-0 existed

[Allen Brown]

Where did you read that?

[funformula]

Ok..  But i read somewhere that F8-0 existed

 

This sounds strange, but I think it may be true.

There is one Fittipaldi F8 in a museum in Istanbul and I know the person who owned it before.

While talking with him about Fittipaldi race cars, I asked him if he was aware of the F8 who was up for auction some years ago for very little money (IIRC less than 10k GBP)

He said he know that car because he owned it and it was no raceworthy chassis, only a roller and he sold it to a museum in Istanbul.

So this could probably be "F8-0"

 

I think this photo show the Istanbul car http://upload.wikime...ldi_F8_no_1.jpg

Edited by funformula, 31 October 2014 - 11:45.

[Allen Brown]

This sounds strange, but I think it may be true.

There is one Fittipaldi F8 in a museum in Istanbul and I know the person who owned it before.

While talking with him about Fittipaldi race cars, I asked him if he was aware of the F8 who was up for auction some years ago for very little money (IIRC less than 10k GBP)

He said he know that car because he owned it and it was no raceworthy chassis, only a roller and he sold it to a museum in Istanbul.

So this could probably be "F8-0"

 

I think this photo show the Istanbul car http://upload.wikime...ldi_F8_no_1.jpg

 

Thanks but could you tell me who used to own it?  I have very good histories on all the F8s going back to when ADA had them and I don't see any reason to believe in a F8-0.  I can probably tell you which one he had.

 

Tell me privately if you prefer - allen@oldracingcars.com

[funformula]

Taken by me at Brands Hatch 1980. Sorry I don't know which chassis this one is.

 

 

Wonder how many cars the Fittipaldi team brought to Brands Hatch in 1980

Had they already completed F8-2 ?

Did Rosberg try it in free practice? As we know he finally failed to qualify F7-3

 

To show the small cut out section around the front rocker arms I post the following link showing Emerson Fittipaldi in his last GP weekend in F8-1 so the car pictured above can´t be F8-1

http://rodrigomattar...nsglen1980e.jpg

[huayra]

Theres pics of Emmo testing an F7 and an F8...   Only resource to trust will be Divila which im trying to contact.

[funformula]

 

 

 

BTW: is the person with the beard Adrian Newey?

Check here for comparison http://www.motorspor...184Indy-k05.jpg