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Deltawing for LeMans in 2012


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#201 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 16:34

Nobody seems to have mentioned the fact that just before the DW's crash the other cars were passing it around the outside of the corner as if it was standing still.


Factory LMP1s passing mid-pack LMP2-speed car? Whatever next.

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#202 mariner

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Posted 19 June 2012 - 19:58

This is probably blatant thread hi-jacking but my excuse is that here is another radical car , very radical in fact, which was critisied as a danger to other cars etc

- got banned too

watch at about 35 seconds and you can see the car suck down onto the tyres - wonderful

http://www.youtube.c...;feature=fvwrel

#203 NTSOS

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 16:35

Was this the inspiration for the LeMans Delta Wing?

Posted Image

From Mac's Website

John

#204 desmo

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 18:46

Kustom Dymaxion?

#205 Sisyphus

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 19:17

Was this the inspiration for the LeMans Delta Wing?

Posted Image

From Mac's Website

John


I think a vintage John Deere row crop tractor might have been--just need to paint it green.

#206 Magoo

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 22:43

Kustom Dymaxion?


If you like the Dymaxion you should love the Stout Scarab. It was almost as weird as the Buckymobile but far more practical and roadworthy.

Stout was also the same general sort of visionary slash crackpot as Fuller, if not quite as well known. Stout was the designer of the Ford Trimotor aircraft.

Be sure to look at the vintage film footage of the Scarab on the road.

Stout Scarab


#207 Magoo

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 15:00

Was this the inspiration for the LeMans Delta Wing?

Posted Image

From Mac's Website

John


Here is one car where I can honestly say I don't get it. What was the point or the purpose are lost on me, truly. The creator (named Davis if I recall) built several of these things, all on the same non-premise. The design is sort of like an airplane with the nose wheel thing going on at the front and the body is built rather like a light aircraft fuselage, but why these should be desirable features on an automobile beats me. All I can say is WTF.

#208 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 15:30

It's a bit like when you see a distant shot of a fighter banking, and you're not sure if it's coming or going.

#209 BRG

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 19:13

Here is one car where I can honestly say I don't get it. What was the point or the purpose are lost on me, truly.

If you are talking about the Deltawing, I agree completely.

#210 Magoo

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 19:49

If you are talking about the Deltawing, I agree completely.


I was talking about the Fascination, obviously.

In the case of the Deltawing, I totally get how Bowlby seized upon the possibilities in CG and aero that make the car viable. I find that aspect rather clever, actually. What I don't get is what the car is supposed to accomplish from there. In the Fascination there is nothing to get, really, in that there is nothing viable about it. Whatever appeal the designer saw in it was unfounded.

#211 BRG

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 19:52

To me, they are both equally pointless and flawed concepts. In both cases, the perpetrators have seized on some idea and then take it to an absurd length.

#212 GSpeedR

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 20:40

To me, they are both equally pointless and flawed concepts. In both cases, the perpetrators have seized on some idea and then take it to an absurd length.


A rectangular, four-wheeled configuration is in no way the pinnacle of racecar design. It's only what we're used to.

#213 Magoo

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 20:52

To me, they are both equally pointless and flawed concepts. In both cases, the perpetrators have seized on some idea and then take it to an absurd length.


There is a huge difference between the two. The Deltawing is based on the idea that a vehicle with asymetric weight distribution and aero CP need not have front and rear tracks of equal width. If you can identify the idea upon which the Fascination is based, please tell me. Near as I can tell the latter car is a sort of whimsy.


#214 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 21:02

Petrol head figures aside, how much longer did the DW go during the race? Much longer stints due to less fuel and tyre consumption?

#215 BRG

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 22:44

So which museum are they putting the Deltawing into?

#216 Magoo

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 00:05

So which museum are they putting the Deltawing into?


Did the Deltawing kick your dog or something?


#217 packapoo

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 05:14

It's a bit like when you see a distant shot of a fighter banking, and you're not sure if it's coming or going.


This reminds me of an old Irish joke about semen and urine :eek:

#218 Fondles

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 14:18

Would the car have been better dynamically if the front axle had the two side-spaced wheels and the rear the narrow track?

I too am working on a vehicle with a more extreme CoG position than the Deltawing, it's much further down the road and here's a prototype.

Posted Image

;)

#219 BRG

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 16:35

Did the Deltawing kick your dog or something?

They tried to run over my dog with it but missed 'cos of that narrow track. :wave:

Seriously, there is no future for this aberration, unless someone wants to fund a series for daft-looking unstable cars. The Deltawing has no competitors to play with and meets no existing, or indeed no likely future set of regulations. It won't be back at Le Mans as it has had its 15 minutes of fame there and the ACO will give garage 56 to some other new concept . So a museum is the only place for it to go now.

Unless someone knows better?

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#220 Kalmake

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 17:30

ALMS has shown interest in DeltaWing for 2013.

Next year's garage 56 car is the hydrogen fuelled GreenGT H2. It's like an overweight open wheeler. Currently over 1200kg though they are aiming for under 1000kg. According to Eurosport commentators, shielding required for the tanks pushes the weight up.

#221 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 18:04

Bet Nakajima will give that car a wide berth.

#222 Magoo

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 18:12

Seriously, there is no future for this aberration, unless someone wants to fund a series for daft-looking unstable cars. The Deltawing has no competitors to play with and meets no existing, or indeed no likely future set of regulations. It won't be back at Le Mans as it has had its 15 minutes of fame there and the ACO will give garage 56 to some other new concept . So a museum is the only place for it to go now.

Unless someone knows better?


That may all be true but it doesn't make the car any less novel or interesting, which is more than you can say for a good part of the field at LeMans.


#223 RDV

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:45

BRG-...daft-looking unstable cars

...source, o enlightened one?

#224 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:58

It only has three wheels!


I wonder about the costs of the concept. In the dollars-to-laptime ratio, whether there are advantages over the traditional LMP2 route. Although in any rules package the money comes in maximising the dimensions. I mean look at how much people manage to spend on NASCAR.

#225 BRG

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 19:36

...source, o enlightened one?

Well, watching it wobble around Arnage corner where every other (conventional) car looked far, far more capable. And then a little sideswipe threw it right off the track into the wall. The clever, revolutionary, world-changing concept simply didn't work. That's the source, chummy, the evidence of our own eyes - or at least for those not blinded by some sort of bizarre denial of the truth.

#226 desmo

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 21:38

Well, watching it wobble around Arnage corner where every other (conventional) car looked far, far more capable. And then a little sideswipe threw it right off the track into the wall. The clever, revolutionary, world-changing concept simply didn't work. That's the source, chummy, the evidence of our own eyes - or at least for those not blinded by some sort of bizarre denial of the truth.


Looked wobbly? Seriously? You don't have any data to present on cornering speeds or lap times and you dismiss it on your meaningless subjective evaluation watching video? Seemed to me to be objectively working exceptionally well for a new concept in its developmental infancy running against equally ridiculous conventional racing cars with a 100 year or so developmental head start.


#227 BRG

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 22:27

Looked wobbly? Seriously? You don't have any data to present on cornering speeds or lap times and you dismiss it on your meaningless subjective evaluation watching video? Seemed to me to be objectively working exceptionally well for a new concept in its developmental infancy running against equally ridiculous conventional racing cars with a 100 year or so developmental head start.

Whatever. If you want to believe in a fairy tale like this one, be my guest.

But the question is where does this thing go now? I can't see how any series is going to rewrite their rules to accommodate a one-off car. If it has to compete on equal terms with real cars, it will be blown away.

#228 Ali_G

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 23:54

But the question is where does this thing go now? I can't see how any series is going to rewrite their rules to accommodate a one-off car. If it has to compete on equal terms with real cars, it will be blown away.


Say hello to the two worst words in motorsport.

Equivalency formula.

#229 Ben

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 07:29

Well, watching it wobble around Arnage corner where every other (conventional) car looked far, far more capable. And then a little sideswipe threw it right off the track into the wall. The clever, revolutionary, world-changing concept simply didn't work. That's the source, chummy, the evidence of our own eyes - or at least for those not blinded by some sort of bizarre denial of the truth.


Seriously... :rolleyes:

I'm fairly ambivalent to the Deltawing, but to be fair to it. it did competitive lap times. I just have a sneaking suspicion that you could get pretty close to what it achieved with a "conventional" wheel configuration. Unlimited aero rules and torque vectoring would certainly help a conventional car.

But your criticism is so ridiculously dogmatic that it's got my back up :-)

The accident in the Porsche Curves is a normal type of situation at Le Mans. Look at the Davidson (Pug) Magnussen (Vette) crash so it can happen just as easily for a "conventional car"

Speaking to some people in the pitlane the front tyre was incredibly conservative due to it's size, which means the package is by no means optimised, which goes to desmo's point.

Ben

#230 Greg Locock

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 23:30

I was fairly critical of the concept initially, but have pretty thoroughly changed my mind.

The reasons for this are as follows

1)traditional open wheeler racing is getting less popular over time. One reason might well be that the cars all look the same, or in the case of current F1, look stupid. Therefore changing the appearance drastically might attract fresh eyes. I doubt it will, personally, but they may have evidence to support this.

2)Flips due to interlocking wheels are bad news. Getting rid of the front axle reduces the chances substantially, or completely.

3)Almost any racing series has arbitrary rules, so complaining that a spec series is inefficient or whatever is illogical. You could easily design a car quite cheaply that would destroy current F1 qualifying times on any track, if the only limitation was say maxima for fuel composition and flow rate and vehicle length width and height. Fan car.

4)It's a fresh technical challenge

5)It was designed by some people who have their heads screwed on, have spent far more time thinking about it than I have, and have put their money/time on the line.

6) Ortiz claims the aero is less sensitive to disruption and so passing should be easier

Edited by Greg Locock, 30 June 2012 - 07:48.


#231 Victor_RO

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:31

Petrol head figures aside, how much longer did the DW go during the race? Much longer stints due to less fuel and tyre consumption?


Fuel stints were 11 laps because they also ran half the tank size of a comparable LMP2 car (40 liters). As for tires, no data from the race, but as far as I'm aware they ran the whole of Test Day and all of Wednesday on the same set of tires.

#232 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 10:57

1)traditional open wheeler racing is getting less popular over time. One reason might well be that the cars all look the same, or in the case of current F1, look stupid. Therefore changing the appearance drastically might attract fresh eyes. I doubt it will, personally, but they may have evidence to support this.


It seems like in just about every country the domestic tin top series is more popular than their open wheelers. V8s vs anything else in Australia, NASCAR v Indycar, DTM/BTCC vs F3, etc. Italy is the exception, but they only care about Ferrari. And in Italy and Spain you could say motorcycle racing is bigger than everything bar Ferrari, but it's a close run thing.

#233 brakedisc

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 15:02

Lets cut to the chase.

How much did Ben Bowlby make out of the deal?

For someone who needs a high profile to continue in the sport I have to take my hat off to the man for the concept. It is on par with the Tyrrell 034 and will live for ever. Well done that man.



#234 Powersteer

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:53

I thought the physical mechanics were not primary and the car would represent the ultimate homage to motor sport aerodynamics concentrating on diffuser and low co-efficient drag more than sporting live axles or singular arm independent suspension a.k.a VW Beetle or even trailing arm..more The Diffuser Car rather than Delta Wheeled Car but it seems not to be the case. Theoretically if they could spawn an advantage from that delta shape to hone a diffuser, which they tried of course, clearing on coming air with a small front, move more weight behind to balance handling then make it all work with a more slow in fast out driving style contributed by being very light to dart out of corners...it certainly sounds like it could sell. Too early? If total tyre contact patch were primary rather than limit front and rear..same with aerodynamics...this seriously could work, certainly more a dart like car than a flow through corner type, point and squirt.

:cool:

#235 Greg Locock

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 06:15

Well I'll try again. What was the mission of the vehicle as designed?

#236 Powersteer

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:03

Well I'll try again. What was the mission of the vehicle as designed?

Probably targeted at maximum efficiency, minimum drag and weight for cutting down on pit stops...less weight on fuel..four cylinder turbo top speed dependent on low drag...apparently it has next to no steering feel from what i'm reading on racecar engineering's article on it, volume 22 number 6. read it tonight.

:cool:

#237 RDV

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 20:54

Deltawing proposed for Indy Lights

#238 Greg Locock

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 23:57

Poweresteer- So now you've read the article, what was the mission of the vehicle as designed? How does that change your assessment? Big clue, you missed the important stuff completely first time round.

#239 GrpB

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 17:05

Well I'll try again. What was the mission of the vehicle as designed?


It was designed to stir the pot, and it achieved the goal 110%. It was built within the rules, wildly different from anything else, and it didn't fall flat on it's face, that's a job well done. All racing priorizes rules over 'technology', the idea of trying something vastly different is exactly the kind of spirit the technical proponents should applaud the most.

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#240 BRG

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 19:27

It was built within the rules

WHat rules were those? Wasn't it originally designed as a possible new spec car for Indy racing, and therefore effectively wrote its own rules?

#241 Powersteer

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 15:10

Poweresteer- So now you've read the article, what was the mission of the vehicle as designed? How does that change your assessment? Big clue, you missed the important stuff completely first time round.

Yes I missed the mark first time round where they were not quite going for all out lap time but instead 24 hours through being nearly twice more efficient than the other LMP1 cars but interestingly gamble a lot on depending too much on the rear axle where it needed a far better surface to actually perform that Le Mans would not be able to offer in some of its corners. Also lack of under tray surface also meant they would not be able to get any where near LMP1 ground force, a critical ingredient for Porsche Curve. Have not finished yet :confused: too mcuh distractions at the moment.

:cool:

Edited by Powersteer, 17 August 2012 - 15:11.


#242 RDV

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 20:03

Do not confuse full wing car with planked flat bottom...L/D in LM trim is 5.8, compared to a LMP1 4.1...car was quite fast in Porsche corners...see section times.

#243 RDV

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:43

..watch Road America...

#244 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 09 September 2012 - 12:31

Are they testing there, or did you mean Road Atlanta which is coming up?

#245 RDV

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 18:16

The pioneering, dart-shaped Nissan DeltaWing, which captured the hearts of 240,000 Le Mans 24 Hour fans three months ago, will race again at next month's American Le Mans Series (ALMS) finale at Road Atlanta, USA, on October 17-20

from Autosport

Edited by RDV, 18 September 2012 - 00:32.


#246 saudoso

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:40

Aw sh!t, what in hell s this Nissan stunt?

http://www.racecar-e...mans-prototype/

It's pretty clear I don't like the DeltaWing but did Nissand just rip them off here or are they back in association? A rip off would be really bad...



#247 saudoso

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 11:42

http://www.deltawingracing.com/

Not a word here, when you look side by syde it's not the same car.

Ouch!

#248 desmo

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 13:36

Makes perfect sense for an electric racer doesn't it? I think Nissan pretty much bankrolled the whole Deltacar thing, so it's hardly a theft.

#249 Powersteer

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:31

Nissan rip 'them' off? Not quite, more the opposite, Nissan complimented the delta wing and the genius that is Ben Bowlby. Without Nissan I think the delta wing would only be a concept but now, with Nissan, it even did Le Mans. Ben Bowlby has taken minimalism to whole new level. How about a diamond shape race car, just think of the aerodynamic advantages!

:cool:

#250 Greg Locock

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:20

How about a diamond shape race car, just think of the aerodynamic advantages!


Of alll the festering nonsense, diamond wheelplan is one of the worst. And yes it has been proposed, designed, built and publicicsed.

French car, 1930s, sorry I haven't got a linky.