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Can you spell that for me, please...?


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#101 Barry Lake

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 03:44

Barry. This is Barry. In the message for Barry that was inadvertently intercpted by Barry, Barry became totally confused about the pronunciation of Meniteguy.

The Raymond Baxter recordings this Barry is speaking about made the "g" soft, not hard.

Can someone tell me, in a way that I, or even Barry, can understand, just how this name should be pronounced?

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#102 Barry Lake

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 04:00

Barry Boor mentioned Aussie accents - which is really nonsense, because we don't have an accent. It is only the Brits, Yanks, Kiwis, Canadians and foreign language speakers who speak English with an accent We just speak normally.

But these accents of "foreign" people can be a problem.

When in the USA for the Jeeper's Jamboree in 1982 (before they discovered Paul Hogan), I continually had trouble giving my name over the telephone. "Lake" I would say. "Like?" the voice on the other end would query.

"No! Lake with an 'a'!"
"Like with an 'i'?"
"No!...
I would pronounce that 'a' with every shape of my mouth I could muster and ever attempt at a foreign accent I could think of. Still, to them, it was "Like, with an 'i'."

Barry was always "Berry" with a long, drawn-out 'e'.

At other times, girls behind counters would ask me to wait while they went to gather an audience, then ask me to repeat my order for a steak and salad so all could listen in awe. They would then break into fits of giggling; stopping only to ask, "Can you say it again?"

I became 'Berry Like, reporting from the good ol' US of A'.

Even in 1985, on another trip, a fellow motoring magazine editor (who, like myself, has no accent at all in his speech) and myself were repeatedly asked such questions as, "Say, you guys talk funny. Where do you come from?"


#103 Barry Lake

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 04:05

And isn't Ja-RA-ma, Ha-RA-ma to us?

Like Huan, Hoe-zay and Hay-soos?

Or have I been wrong all these years? Is it time for me to take up the long-standing offer of free accommodation in a holiday home in the south of Spain so I can learn something of the language?

#104 Wolf

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 04:08

This is funny, Barry. I have similar problem- noone has ever guessed where I come from (regardless of the language I speak). :) Even my compatriots can't figure my accent (although I maintain that I speek proper, 'literary' language- which obviously nobody else does).
The only person that fooled me in english was an Austrian- he spoke 'middle-upper' class english absolutely perfectly. Other than that I'm pretty versed with detecting origins from other peoples english.

#105 Leif Snellman

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 07:01

Originally posted by Barry Lake
And isn't Ja-RA-ma, Ha-RA-ma to us?

Like Huan, Hoe-zay and Hay-soos?

Or have I been wrong all these years? Is it time for me to take up the long-standing offer of free accommodation in a holiday home in the south of Spain so I can learn something of the language?


When are you going? In Hune or in Huly?

Sorry, I's an old classic and I couldn't resist! :lol:

#106 Felix Muelas

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 08:47

Menditeguy...

MEN (like in MENtal)
DI (like in DIctionary)
TE (like in TErritory)
G (Like in Garden)
UY sounds like the I (in I-ndia or I-taly)

The option that Barry mentioned (the last part GUY sounding like WE) would only be applied if the writing was "güy". Unfortunately such construction is not spanish -I mean a "Y" following an "GU" so the pronounciation is open to discussion...

:)
Felix




#107 Barry Lake

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 14:43

Well I think I now have Menditeguy sorted, but I am still none the wiser about Ha-RA-ma.

I was once at London Heathrow Airport heading who knows where with a bunch of Aussie motoring journalists when we were herded into an area alongside a bunch of school kids - about 10 years old, I would guess.

They were, as it turned out, from a Spanish school, returning from some sort of excursion in England. When I first asked where they were from, they didn't understand me - except for one kid, who turned out to be a very well-spoken, well-educated English boy, who later explained to me that his father was working in Spain, so he was attending the Spanish school.

He translated my question to the rest of them and they all chorussed, "Barthelona".

I said to the English boy, "Do all young children in Thpain thpeak with a lithp?" To which he replied, without a moment's pause, "Yeth, motht of them."

Quicker than the average kid.

#108 Michael Müller

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 19:28

Barry, Barcelona correctly is spoken "Barthelona", and the Spanish "J" - as said already earlier in this thread - is similar to the German "CH", the Dutch "G", and the Russian "X" resp. "KH", with the international phonetic sign "x". This sound is not used in English language, so a lot of people are unable to speak it.

#109 Felix Muelas

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 21:10

Originally posted by Barry Lake
Is it time for me to take up the long-standing offer of free accommodation in a holiday home in the south of Spain so I can learn something of the language?


Come and see it by yourself, dear Barry! You will be welcomed! :)

Félix



#110 David J Jones

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 21:16

How about

Rod
Ree
geth

?


#111 Felix Muelas

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 21:31

Alternatively...

RO (like in RROss)
DRI (like in DRIft)
GUE (like in GUEss)
Z (like the TH in THunderbird)

Felix


#112 David McKinney

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:08

The Spanish spoken in Argentina uses something closed to an 's' or 'z' sound in place of the 'th' in the homeland. Which pronunciation Mexican Spanish (as in Rodriguez) uses I do not know

#113 Felix Muelas

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Posted 01 February 2001 - 22:22

David,

You are absolutely right!;)
In the case of the Rodriguez brothers, if we want to pronounce that as Mexicans do -and seems quite reasonable- we will substitute, as you very accurately mentioned, the last TH for an S.
Although I think Carlos Pani (cjpani) should immediatly take over, as I don´t think I have the authority at all to handle their pronounciation accurately.

BTW, have we thanked Tony Kaye enough for originating this apparently "light" thread that is providing so much fun and entertainment? And, in any case, is this what he expected? Because we can go on and on... :)

Felix





#114 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 01:03

Originally posted.....
We were herded into an area alongside a bunch of school kids - about 10 years old, I would guess.

They were, as it turned out, from a Spanish school, returning from some sort of excursion in England. When I first asked where they were from, they didn't understand me - except for one kid, who turned out to be a very well-spoken, well-educated English boy, who later explained to me that his father was working in Spain, so he was attending the Spanish school.

He translated my question to the rest of them and they all chorussed, "Barthelona".

I said to the English boy, "Do all young children in Thpain thpeak with a lithp?" To which he replied, without a moment's pause, "Yeth, motht of them."

Quicker than the average kid.


This one really cracked me up, and many others from this source get to me as well.

..perhaps because I know some of the personalities, of course...

#115 Barry Lake

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 12:30

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
David,
BTW, have we thanked Tony Kaye enough for originating this apparently "light" thread that is providing so much fun and entertainment? And, in any case, is this what he expected? Because we can go on and on... :)
Felix



Felix

It is fun and entertaining, but also very educational.

Having fun is the best way to learn anything. Pity no one ever told my school teachers that.

Thanks Tony!

#116 Stefan Ornerdal

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 15:22

Very fun thread.

How to pronounce this names right:
Gordini
Ghinzani
Hulme
Jabouille

Cheers
Stefan

#117 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 15:39

Frank Gardner had a lot to do with Denny, and he pronounced it:
Hewlm.
But everyone else said:
Hullm.
Jack pronounced it like everyone else, too. Frank was on his own...

#118 David McKinney

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 19:15

Most people called Hulme would pronounce their name Hume. As Ray says, Denis (and his father) called it Hullm.

#119 Racer.Demon

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Posted 02 February 2001 - 23:25

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
Very fun thread.

How to pronounce this names right:
Gordini
Ghinzani
Hulme
Jabouille

Cheers
Stefan


Gore-dee-NEE

Gin-DZA-nee (with the g of 'get' instead of 'gin')

Zhyah-BOOY (as in Zsa-Zsa Gabor!)

Now, Boullion (often misspelt Bouillon), would that be Bool-lee-ONG?

And some more:

Levegh?
Servoz-Gavin? (Ser-VOE or Ser-VOEZ?)
Beuttler? Reutemann? (Both the German way?)
Koinigg? (König spelt differently?)
Abecassis?
Soler-Roig?
Mansell vs. Blundell vs. Arundell?
Acheson? (EDGE-a-son?)
Es-TE-fano or Este-FA-no?

And I'm still waiting for someone to confirm my idea on Badoer... :)


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#120 Barry Lake

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 03:34

And I'm still waiting on Blignaut!

I worked with Kenny Acheson in Japan in 1988 and didn't hear him called anything other than ATCH-eson.

#121 David McKinney

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 07:23

I agree on atcha-son
Reutemann is pronounced the German way (ROITa-man) but I think the earlier March driver was Bew-tler
The Alta and HWM man was Abba-kassy
People talk about Le-VEK, which doesn’t look or sound at all French to me. Perhaps it was a Flemish name.
Estéfano has an accent on the second syllable which means it must be E-Steffa-no
Mansell is pronounced the same as if it was spelt Mansle
Arundell has the stress on the first syllable
Blundell is pronounced to rhyme with Brundle - or was until Murray Walker decided to change the stress to differentiate between the team-mates. I suspect Mark may have happily adopted the new way.
I’m not at all sure about the others on your list, Mattijs



#122 Racer.Demon

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 12:16

The theme of this thread has quickly evolved from "Can you spell that for me?" (Luyendijk) to "Can you pronounce that for me?" (Badoer, Blignaut...) - which I think is the theme that raises more questions anyway!

Here's a recap of just about every name discussed. I hope this will be helpful. (Someone should put that on a website! Should that be me?)

Note: 'x' denotes the German 'ch', Dutch 'g', Spanish 'j' and Russian 'kh'. 'g' is the g in 'get'. 'ÿ' is the typical Dutch 'ij' sound in between, well, 'guys' and 'gays'. 'ui' is the typical Dutch sound found in 'ui' and 'uy' and is irreproducable in English letters... 'eu' is the French eu, loosely pronounced 'uhh'.

Cholmondeley-Tapper -> Chum-ly Tapper
Featherstonhaugh -> Fan-shaw
Jaekevleviek -> Ya-kov-la-vic
Caracciola -> Carra-CHO-la
Ferenc Szisz -> Ferrens Sheesh
Michael Schumacher -> MEE-xa-al SHOE-maxer
Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen -> HINE-reex YO-a-xeem fon Mor-gan
Hiro Matsushita -> HEE-roh Matt-SHOOSH-ta
Shinji Nakano -> SHEEN-dzee NAH-kah-no
Gijs van Lennep -> Xÿs vahn LEN-nupp
Huisman -> HUIS-mahn
Arie Luyendijk -> AH-ree LUI-yen-dÿk
Vermeulen -> Fur-MUHH-lunn
Euser -> UHH-sir
Johansson -> YOH-hahn-sonn
Peterson -> PET-ter-sonn
Rosberg -> ROSE-bery
Häkkinen -> HEK-kee-nunn
Räikkönen -> RAY-koo-nunn
Barrichello -> Barry-KEL-lo or CHEL-lo
Pace -> PAH-chay
Bräck -> Breck
Cesare Perdisa -> CHAY-sa-ray Pear-DEE-sah
Ettore Chimeri -> ET-tow-ray Kee-MAY-ree
Schiattarella -> Sk-YAT-ta-rella
Schuppan -> SHOOP-pen
Jarama -> Xa-RA-ma
Menditeguy -> Men-DEE-tay-gee (g as in 'get')
Rodriguez -> Rod-REE-gueth
Amedée Gordini -> Ah-may-DAY Gore-dee-NEE
Ghinzani -> Gin-DZA-nee (g as in 'get')
Jabouille -> Zhyah-BOOY
Boullion -> Bool-lee-ONG
Hulme -> Hullm
Acheson -> ATCH-a-son
Reutemann -> ROIT-a-mann
Beuttler -> BEWT-ler
Estéfano -> Es-TAY-fano

Abecassis -> AB-ba-kassy or Abba-KAS-sy?
Arundell -> AIR-run-dell?
Blundell -> Blun-DELL?

Open for suggestions:

Adolf Sczyrzycki
Martin Schanche
Luca Badoer (Bah-dough-where?)
Alex Blignaut
Pierre Levegh
Johnny Servoz-Gavin
Helmuth Koinigg
Alex Soler-Roig


#123 Flicker

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 12:37

Adolf Sczyrzycki

... it seems that in Polish his name have to look like [Sczyrsczycki]

Sheer'sheet'skee (variant - Shir'shit'zki)

#124 jarama

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 12:46

Racer.,

about Soler-Roig:

A, as in A-becassis
lex, as in LEX-ical

So, as in SO-b
ler, as in c-LER-ical
Roig, tipical Catalonian family name: one syllable formed by RO-tary and w-ICH.

#125 David McKinney

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 13:10

Is it not Menditéguy, and therefore Men-di-TAY-Gee?
It would be Rod-REE-gueth in Spain but Rod-REE-gues in Latin America
And surely it should be Gore-DEE-nee? Or, perhaps if he retained the original Italian pronuciation, GOR-dee-nee? I don’t know if his revised forename was Amedée or Amédée. If the latter, your interpretation would be correction, but if it was the former it would be AH-m(uh)-day. And of course he was originally Ah-may-DAY-o



#126 fines

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 14:34

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Michael Schumacher -> MEE-xa-al SHOE-maxer
Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen -> HINE-reex YO-a-xeem fon Mor-gan

Mattijs, unfortunately we Germans have two ways to pronounce 'ch'! So it's:
MEE-sha-el SHOE-maxer and
HINE-rish YO-a-xim fon MOR-gan

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Helmuth Koinigg

My guess would be HELL-moot COE-nick

#127 Barry Boor

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 14:36

David, I agree with your interpretation of stressed syllables. I have always thought the stress on MOST Italianate words, (Gordini being one - Bugatti another) was on the penultimate syllable. Of course this is not a hard and fast rule, but if you go through the Italian drivers from the very beginning, that's where the stress seems to be almost without fail. It works for Carraciola too.

I know, I know.... someone will come on and say "Ah, what about.....etc" but in general I think you will find my assumption to be correct.

That would make Luca Bad-O-er; but in this case I feel that BAD-oa is closer.

BTW, I know it doesn't work with Modena (either the place or the driver.) WE NEED AN ITALIAN.
BORSARI, where are you?


#128 Barry Lake

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 15:35

Just one point on the Japanese names. I always have been taught there is no emphasis on any syllable - the emphasis is the same on all of them.

I have been chastised many times for this by Japanese people trying to teach me to speak the language. They say, "NOT like THIS..." waving the hand up and down in front of them, "...but like this" running the hand along in a straight line (like the heart line of someone who just died).

#129 fines

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 15:42

:lol: flatline pronunciation? :lol:

#130 David McKinney

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 18:08

I've got a horrible feeling I've strayed onto some academic thread that has nothing to do with motor racing!
Fines, is it not correct that some people pronounce the 'ch' one way and some the other? That is, almost the same as if it were 'sch' on the one hand, and on the other hand the 'x' sound at the back of the throat? Does it not depend on where you live? (I was taught about High German and Low German when I was at school but that's a long time ago...)

#131 tombe

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Posted 03 February 2001 - 21:36

I've once heard Luca Badoer introduce himself on television, and he pronounced it BA-do-EER.

Tom Berge

#132 Racer.Demon

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Posted 04 February 2001 - 20:53

Originally posted by fines

Originally posted by Racer.Demon
Michael Schumacher -> MEE-xa-al SHOE-maxer
Heinrich-Joachim von Morgen -> HINE-reex YO-a-xeem fon Mor-gan

Mattijs, unfortunately we Germans have two ways to pronounce 'ch'! So it's:
MEE-sha-el SHOE-maxer and
HINE-rish YO-a-xim fon MOR-gan


Michael: I've heard very many Germans - include news readers - only use the 'x' sound, and in your and Schumacher's name as well! I was under the impression, and I'm going with David here, that the 'sh' variant for ch was regional.


#133 fines

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Posted 04 February 2001 - 22:12

David, Mattijs, don't get me started on dialects, I was a student of German language and literature for a couple of years! :lol:

No one in Germany, and I repeat no one, would ever pronounce the two 'ch' in Michael Schumacher the same! It's Mish-a-el Schoe-maxer, 'Mish' like in Allan McNish and 'maxer' like in Jaráma. Period. I believe there's a rule like 'ch' following i and e is pronounced 'sh' and after all other vowels 'x', but don't pin me to it (I never had to study German pronunciation, after all)!

#134 Barry Lake

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Posted 04 February 2001 - 23:49

I know only very little German but I do know that a family I stay with in Germany (or did when I had the opportunity to go there often) were always chastising the son in the family for pronouncing "ch" as "sh".

"Frankfurt slang" they explained, as an apology for my having heard such a thing.

They assured me the "x" sound at the back of the throat was the only correct way to pronounce "ch".

There never was any suggestion of exceptions.

This was a highly educated family, very particular about such things.

As an aside, the eldest girl in the family and I once caught a train from Munich to Frankfurt and were seated near a boy who was desperate to engage her in conversation.

She later told me she could barely understand a word he said. He came from a small town in the country, she explained (only 100 or 200 kilometres from where she lived) and his dialect was so different it was almost incomprehensible to her.

The only thing I could detect was that he did a lot of this "sh-shing" that I had been told was a "no no".

#135 Michael Müller

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Posted 05 February 2001 - 07:50

Fines and David are both correct. The "ch" in Michael is something between "X" and "SH", spoken behind your upper front teeth (very difficult to explain). I should know this, because it's my name. People here in Holland normally speak it as "X", and if they realize that my family speaks it in another way, they are trying the same, but fail. So knowing that the "X" isn't correct, and the "nearly SH" they cannot speak, they normally switch over to the English pronounciation of the name "Michael".

On the other side there are of course regional differences in pronouncing, also of course for the "ch", especially in Bavaria and Austria "Michael" is pronounced more into direction of the "X" sound. All really very complicated!

#136 Gil Bouffard

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 18:15

Sorta like Kennedy's famous line, "ish bin ein bearleener."

Having spent my first years in Germany in Ober-Bayern/Fichtelgebirge, beim Bayreuth, I was told that the shh sound was a Berlin dialect.

Zheel

#137 David McKinney

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 19:13

My German teacher at school was from Bavaria, and insisted on the 'x' sound for ch. The 'sh' usage, he said, was Prussian...

#138 fines

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 19:49

:lol:

Ok guys, you're probably right, I stand corrected. Being a 'Prussian' in the Bavarian sense of the word (ie every non-Bavarian is a Prussian) I am now willing to agree on subtle differences. However, I'd still think even the Bavarians make a difference twix Michael and Schumacher, although I seem to recall the Swiss pronouncing it *absolutely* the same. Then again, I work closely with an Austrian who calls me 'MEE-sha-el'!

It all reminds me rather of a German TV broadcast where the reporter did an interview with the top 3 finishers of a bob sleigh contest, a German (Bavarian), an Austrian (Styrian) and an Italian (Tyrolian). The only one I could even barely understand was the Italian! :D

#139 alessandro silva

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 21:02

Somebody asks for an Italian about the correct pronounciation of Badoer. Well, the answer is not clear; that is, the correct pronounciation should be:
Ba as in bar
do as in dot
er as in errant
with stress on the LAST syllable and the final r made very audible but not rounded off as in French. This because the name has a clear origin from the Veneto region where they are pronounced that way.
But if you hear talking about Badoer on TV, the stress is always put on the first syllable, which makes no sense, strictly speaking. Unfortunately I do not know how he wants to be called.

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#140 Racer.Demon

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 22:00

Finally! Alessandro, thanks. To think I was right all along...

Now can someone (i.e. Rob Young!) deliver Barry L. from the anguish of not knowing how to say Blignaut?


#141 Rainer Nyberg

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 22:08

Martin Schanche - Martin Skánnké
As in Schiphol. - Skiphol

#142 David McKinney

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Posted 08 February 2001 - 22:18

Alex Blignaut's forebears presumably called it 'blee-nyo' but who knows what it was later

#143 Barry Lake

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Posted 09 February 2001 - 07:08

Yes. Those Seth Efrikans have their own ideas on these things.

#144 Michael Müller

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Posted 09 February 2001 - 07:17

"Skiphol" for Schiphol is not correct. The "ch" is spoken separated from the "S", but as the famous "X" as discussed above. To speak the "s" and the "x" directly one after the other for non-Dutch is more or less impossible, even after 12 years I have no chance. So I stopped trying it, when entering a taxi I simply say "naar't vliegveld" (to the airport).

#145 fines

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Posted 09 February 2001 - 20:43

I think I have quite a good grasp of pronouncing Italian names, but the one that always bugs me is Andrea de Adamich. Alessandro?

#146 Kvadrat

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:37

What's correct spelling for 1950 Australian Grand Prix home - Nuriootpa?

#147 Hieronymus

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:51

Originally posted by Racer.Demon

Now can someone (i.e. Rob Young!) deliver Barry L. from the anguish of not knowing how to say Blignaut?


Mattijs

With regards to your question in this old thread, about Blignaut.

Yes, it is pronounced Bli-noh...that is to say if you are a "fancy" South African. Some others will say their surname is Blig-note. Mattijs, being a Dutchie I don't think I'll have to go into the way the "g" sound is pronounced. An almost impossible feat for English speakers to accomplish.

If you do not want an Englishman to spit in your beer, never temp him to try and pronounce this "g" sound...

#148 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:52

Originally posted by Kvadrat
What's correct spelling for 1950 Australian Grand Prix home - Nuriootpa?

Yep, Nuriootpa is right.
Now, lets see how you pronounce it!

#149 Kvadrat

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 10:21

N-u-r-i-o-o-t-p-a?

#150 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 13:34

Newrioo*tpah...

The 'oo' is pronounced as in 'foot'.