49 replies to this topic

[ensign14]

Just wondering. We have the spectactle today of the the entire field trying to pit within a 3 lap window - from a dry track to wet pitlane - all piled up together because the safety car has closed them up. There is the saying "safety cars breed safety cars" because they bring the field nose to tail and everyone banzais on each other. I am still convinced the deployment of a safety car was a major - maybe THE major - contributory factor in Senna's death.

The most dangerous thing about F1 is the safety car. Why not be honest? It's nothing to do with safety. If a track is too dangerous to race on, stop the race. It makes for a good SHOW though...

[alecc]

Just wondering. We have the spectactle today of the the entire field trying to pit within a 3 lap window - from a dry track to wet pitlane - all piled up together because the safety car has closed them up. There is the saying "safety cars breed safety cars" because they bring the field nose to tail and everyone banzais on each other. I am still convinced the deployment of a safety car was a major - maybe THE major - contributory factor in Senna's death.

The most dangerous thing about F1 is the safety car. Why not be honest? It's nothing to do with safety. If a track is too dangerous to race on, stop the race. It makes for a good SHOW though...

But what would you suggest to do, when there is something on the track? Today we saw how it could be easy to a stupid tragedy when this poor guy stumbled twice right before a F1 car.

[ensign14]

But what would you suggest to do, when there is something on the track? Today we saw how it could be easy to a stupid tragedy when this poor guy stumbled twice right before a F1 car.

Do what the Dutch do, stick everyone's limiter on so that nobody's doing more than 40 or 50. Then the marshalls can clear everything with full knowledge as to who is where and when. If that's not possible, then stop the race.

[ensign14]

Bumping this because it happened again. We have a nice safe race, until Karthikeyan does his usual thing of, despite being slower than the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, managing to hit the wall (someone should tell him Fantasy Camp is over), and instead of just craning him away they bring out the Show Car.

Which means the field gets bunched up, everyone close together, and when Grandpa forgets where the brake pedal is he nearly decapitates Vergne. So a race that was about as dangerous as self-raising flour suddenly comes close to being lethal. Why? Because the Unsafety Car was deployed.

[fisssssi]

Still safer than letting the cars plow into marshals/cranes on the track (ala Maldonad'oh).

Although with the new delta-time technology maybe they could rely on that to slow the cars evenly for a few laps.

[Jimisgod]

Bumping this because it happened again. We have a nice safe race, until Karthikeyan does his usual thing of, despite being slower than the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, managing to hit the wall (someone should tell him Fantasy Camp is over), and instead of just craning him away they bring out the Show Car.

Which means the field gets bunched up, everyone close together, and when Grandpa forgets where the brake pedal is he nearly decapitates Vergne. So a race that was about as dangerous as self-raising flour suddenly comes close to being lethal. Why? Because the Unsafety Car was deployed.

Because Karthicrashing parked his car in the tunnel. When someone parks in the Monaco tunnel it goes SC. Of course that doesn't answer why they threw it for Schumacher's brain fade.

[Jejking]

Bumping this because it happened again. We have a nice safe race, until Karthikeyan does his usual thing of, despite being slower than the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, managing to hit the wall (someone should tell him Fantasy Camp is over), and instead of just craning him away they bring out the Show Car.

Which means the field gets bunched up, everyone close together, and when Grandpa forgets where the brake pedal is he nearly decapitates Vergne. So a race that was about as dangerous as self-raising flour suddenly comes close to being lethal. Why? Because the Unsafety Car was deployed.

You're still missing the point, namely pointing out at what exactly was dangerous about the SC.

[Ralliart]

This, of course, is one of the problems with a race in tight confines. Instead of staying away from such options, we see that more such races will be added to the calendar, i.e. New Jersey. So, when a fan gets happy with the news that a race will be held in the streets, said fan should remember that there is a good chance that the safety car will be brought out during a race. That's one of the downsides - along with few places to pass. Monaco is very good about craning cars but the other, such, races don't seem to have that capability.

[PayasYouRace]

Bumping this because it happened again. We have a nice safe race, until Karthikeyan does his usual thing of, despite being slower than the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, managing to hit the wall (someone should tell him Fantasy Camp is over), and instead of just craning him away they bring out the Show Car.

Which means the field gets bunched up, everyone close together, and when Grandpa forgets where the brake pedal is he nearly decapitates Vergne. So a race that was about as dangerous as self-raising flour suddenly comes close to being lethal. Why? Because the Unsafety Car was deployed.

I guess that would be Vergne's fault for keeping his head in his gearbox, apparently.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Bumping this because it happened again. We have a nice safe race, until Karthikeyan does his usual thing of, despite being slower than the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, managing to hit the wall (someone should tell him Fantasy Camp is over), and instead of just craning him away they bring out the Show Car.

Which means the field gets bunched up, everyone close together, and when Grandpa forgets where the brake pedal is he nearly decapitates Vergne. So a race that was about as dangerous as self-raising flour suddenly comes close to being lethal. Why? Because the Unsafety Car was deployed.

This confirms that you either don't know what you're talking about or didn't see what happened.

[ensign14]

Or that I was using rhetorical exaggeration for emphasis on a medium where one cannot use body language for the same effect.

[fisssssi]

It's no more dangerous than the start of the race. Much less dangerous, in fact. Shall we get rid of starts too?

[jeze]

It certainly helps the safety of marshals.

[joshb]

Do what the Dutch do, stick everyone's limiter on so that nobody's doing more than 40 or 50. Then the marshalls can clear everything with full knowledge as to who is where and when. If that's not possible, then stop the race.

This!
With all the technology now, surely the race control can activate everyone's pit limiter of something

[panzani]

... I would say instead of the Safety Car — perhaps all together with it — they should just use the button that limits speed on pitlane whenever an accident like those happens and there's full circuit yellows. It would be very simple to implement (the car already receives data regarding the yellows or reds so very easy to trigger pitlane speed (60 KM/h in Singapore, I think) and would keep the very same distance between all cars so nobody would either gain or lose unfair advantage. Funnily it was on the very same track that that small Piquet crashed on purpose following Briatore orders to give Alonso a win. Perhaps the outcome would have been different with this system...

Edit: I've been beaten — twice! — by the posts above mine!

Edited by MightyMoose, 25 September 2012 - 14:47.
Removed obvious flamebait re: Schumacher

[choyothe]

Wouldn't want to see Maylander out of work though.

[BillyWhizz]

I wondered about this myself yesterday. Surely the all-important tyre pressures and brake temperatures will be considerably out of whack after a number of laps behind the SC?

Also, I wouldn't imagine that running the cars for any length of time on the pit lane limiter - or similar full-yellow limiter system - instead of following a SC, would allow them to work the brakes or keep the engine cool enough. It would surely cause retirements due to failure or loss of control into a hard braking zone.

It does make for a great show though, and once I know that everyone's going to be ok after a smash, I have to say that I usually don't mind the chaos that ensues once the SC has been deployed...

[BigCHrome]

That is idiotic. The point of the safety car is that the track marshals get a ample amount of time to clear a section of the track while the field has passed it.

[Wolf]

As for safety car, there is even simpler solution than those proposed- should there be a call for interrupting the race, all cars are required to slow down immediately and to line up on the grid in running order when the interruption occurred. No pit crew is allowed on the grid, and the race is restarted once the track is clear...

Edited by MightyMoose, 25 September 2012 - 14:48.
Removed: Response to Panzini's flamebait

[V8 Fireworks]

... I would say instead of the Safety Car — perhaps all together with it — they should just use the button that limits speed on pitlane whenever an accident like those happens and there's full circuit yellows. It would be very simple to implement (the car already receives data regarding the yellows or reds so very easy to trigger pitlane speed (60 KM/h in Singapore, I think) and would keep the very same distance between all cars so nobody would either gain or lose unfair advantage. Funnily it was on the very same track that that small Piquet crashed on purpose following Briatore orders to give Alonso a win. Perhaps the outcome would have been different with this system...

Just require the limiter is pressed at the start finish line (or a clearly signed sector line).


It would be too complicated to apply the limit straight away.

[V8 Fireworks]

It's no more dangerous than the start of the race. Much less dangerous, in fact. Shall we get rid of starts too?

There could be a case for rolling starts. OHS inspectors in the USA consider it to be safer for sure... it is hard to imagine how Champcar managed to convince their legal department to allow a switch to standing starts..

[johnmhinds]

Do what the Dutch do, stick everyone's limiter on so that nobody's doing more than 40 or 50. Then the marshalls can clear everything with full knowledge as to who is where and when. If that's not possible, then stop the race.

While that would be good in theory, it doesn't allow the pack to bunch up which is required sometimes to give the marshals time to clear debris from the racing line.
A car traveling at 40-50mph is still a huge danger to a marshal that is distracted as he is sweeping away carbon fiber or pushing a stranded car down the track to a safe location.

The 1-2 minute gap created by bunching up the pack is one of the most important aspects of the safety car.

Granted the back markers racing round to the back of the pack makes a mockery of the whole system (they should just drive down the pit lane and rejoin at the back of the pack), but the bunching up is still needed for the marshals safety.

[ensign14]

And that goes back to my original point - if it's THAT dangerous, stop the race so it can be done in complete safety.

I appreciate this warrants a second standing start, which is also dangerous, but once upon a time when a race was red-flagged in its middle the times of the two parts would be added together, so there was less incentive for a banzai move into the first corner; one would gain track position, but one would still be several seconds behind the chap in front.

Of course, THAT rule was abolished some years ago, for no incentive other than to improve The Show. Another contrived and anti-racing move.

[Sakae]

This confirms that you either don't know what you're talking about or didn't see what happened.

My suspicion is, that it's both.

[byrkus]

One or two things, which I noticed during Singapore GP. After the SC went on the track (for the 1st time) and the field started getting together, Kamui Kobayashi -who was still quite some way behind- drove his fastest lap time up to that point. And by that time, SC was on track on his second lap!

And after that, when the field was together nose-to-tail, they let the lapped cars ahead to unlap themselves. During which they drove two or three qualifiying laps, while everybody else was stuck behind SC.

How exactly does that contribute to 'safety'?

[johnmhinds]

And that goes back to my original point - if it's THAT dangerous, stop the race so it can be done in complete safety.

I appreciate this warrants a second standing start, which is also dangerous, but once upon a time when a race was red-flagged in its middle the times of the two parts would be added together, so there was less incentive for a banzai move into the first corner; one would gain track position, but one would still be several seconds behind the chap in front.

Of course, THAT rule was abolished some years ago, for no incentive other than to improve The Show. Another contrived and anti-racing move.

Are you saying it wouldn't be dangerous to have the cars randomly spaced around the track doing 40-50mph?
I'd like to see you clean up a car crash on an active A road then...

You're going to the extremes and claiming that we either have to have cars everywhere as stuff is cleared up or no cars at all, both of which are obviously unworkable.

The current safety car rules while not perfect are at least a happy middle ground for both safety and the show.

[johnmhinds]

One or two things, which I noticed during Singapore GP. After the SC went on the track (for the 1st time) and the field started getting together, Kamui Kobayashi -who was still quite some way behind- drove his fastest lap time up to that point. And by that time, SC was on track on his second lap!

And after that, when the field was together nose-to-tail, they let the lapped cars ahead to unlap themselves. During which they drove two or three qualifiying laps, while everybody else was stuck behind SC.

How exactly does that contribute to 'safety'?

There was a 1 lap gap between the pack being bunched up and the back markers being released where the HRT was cleared away.

There were no marshals on the track while those cars were racing around the catch the back of the pack.

[August]

And that goes back to my original point - if it's THAT dangerous, stop the race so it can be done in complete safety.

I appreciate this warrants a second standing start, which is also dangerous, but once upon a time when a race was red-flagged in its middle the times of the two parts would be added together, so there was less incentive for a banzai move into the first corner; one would gain track position, but one would still be several seconds behind the chap in front.

Of course, THAT rule was abolished some years ago, for no incentive other than to improve The Show. Another contrived and anti-racing move.

Yeah, the rules to improve The Show have decreased my interest in F1. But I don't know if that aggregate time system was very good. You may be the first at the chequered flag but the guy 5 secs behind you wins because he was leading you by 10 secs before the red flag. That'd be confusing, and race is about driving against other drivers, in that case it'd be about driving against the clock.

But I preferred the old SC system when you had to lap backmarkers, it rewarded having a big lead. And besides, I'd prefer if there were no blue flags for lapped cars, you should really overtake them. Lapped cars may be fighting for points (which can be rare for them) and they wouldn't want to slow down to let lead cars past. And that would also make the old SC rules even more sensible.

And if the SC period lasts over, say, 5 laps, or there would be less than, say, 5 laps to go, then red flag the race and don't waste laps behind SC. That's what they did at Monaco '11, an I think it was a better decision than finish behind SC.

Edited by August, 25 September 2012 - 08:24.

[ensign14]

Are you saying it wouldn't be dangerous to have the cars randomly spaced around the track doing 40-50mph?
I'd like to see you clean up a car crash on an active A road then...

The situations are not comparable, given that F1 drivers are meant to be an elite and to ensure that everyone is safe we could just have Karthikeyan/Maldonado (in the rare circumstances where they haven't caused the problem in the first place) parked for a few laps, but if you've ever driven on the M1 you would have noticed that most of it seems to be restricted to 50mph to allow for lanes to be closed and people to work on them with far greater volumes of traffic, including Volvos, whizzing by. OK, I've never actually seen anyone working on the M1, it's only been about eight years after all, but it's happening in principle.

But I don't know if that aggregate time system was very good. You may be the first at the chequered flag but the guy 5 secs behind you wins because he was leading you by 10 secs before the red flag. That'd be confusing, and race is about driving against other drivers, in that case it'd be about driving against the clock.

It was only confusing to congenital morons, who unfortunately seem to make up the majority of the Formula 1 audience these days.

[johnmhinds]

The situations are not comparable

If you really believe that to be the case why continue by using an even more removed comparison of segregated road works traffic...

Fact is having the cars bunch up behind the safety car is a lot safer for both the marshals and drivers than having the cars randomly spaced around the track, so that's why they do it that way.

Edited by johnmhinds, 25 September 2012 - 09:08.

[ensign14]

If you really believe that to be the case why continue by using an even more removed comparison of segregated road works traffic...

Cos I reckon that would be a more dangerous scenario than a track with max 23 cars on it. All going the same way (unless Maldonado is still out there).

[johnmhinds]

Cos I reckon that would be a more dangerous scenario than a track with max 23 cars on it. All going the same way (unless Maldonado is still out there).

I may be completely crazy but I don't think you'd ever get M1 construction workers rushing out to clear crashed cars and debris as people weave around to keep their tyres warm as they race...
They leave that job to these guys, and they only do it when they've closed the road off...


So your comparison is moot...

Whether it's safer to run out on a road or a racetrack is a pointless discussion, we don't do either of these things unless they are clear of all vehicles first for the safety of everyone involved.

And I don't see what you're trying to gain by adding in this danger for the marshals at racetracks.

Edited by johnmhinds, 25 September 2012 - 14:03.

[ensign14]

Well, there is a curious sign near the M40 exit that says picking up your litter puts workers' lives at risk, which has puzzled me. Am I meant NOT to clear up behind me?

But the point is that on a generally wide race-track with cars limited to 40-50 and big waved yellows where there are workers on track there should not be danger to trackworkers. If there is then those drivers should not be driving a Scalextric let alone a Formula 1 car. And once it goes green it is safer for all concerned - no risk of a flying Schumacher, at least no more than normal.

[Ross Stonefeld]

It's better to have the field in one pack at an adjustable speed than spread all around, even going the same speed.

[johnmhinds]

Well, there is a curious sign near the M40 exit that says picking up your litter puts workers' lives at risk, which has puzzled me. Am I meant NOT to clear up behind me?

No. The sign is telling you not to litter in the first place...

But the point is that on a generally wide race-track with cars limited to 40-50 and big waved yellows where there are workers on track there should not be danger to trackworkers. If there is then those drivers should not be driving a Scalextric let alone a Formula 1 car. And once it goes green it is safer for all concerned - no risk of a flying Schumacher, at least no more than normal.

You seem to have forgotten that the safety car is for situations where waved yellow flags aren't good enough, when cars/debris are stranded in blind spots or anywhere across the track itself, the speed of the cars is not a factor in the safety car being deployed because it is dangerous at all speeds in those situations.

They have never put out waved yellow flags so a marshal can enter the racetrack to recover debris and never will, regardless of the racing speeds.

[Rinehart]

It's better to have the field in one pack at an adjustable speed than spread all around, even going the same speed.

Agree, but that could effectively be achieved without the physical presence of a safety car on track.

The whole process seems a bit ill-concived at the moment.

Lets say a big crash has happened, to one of the leaders, towards the end of a lap, early in a race. Bits of car everywhere and the driver still in the car.

Under the current system about 20-odd cars would pass protected by nothing other than double waved yellows during the critical first minute. Then once the safety car was scrambled, presumably the safety car failing to pick up the leader the first time around, many would all pass the scene again, the marshals this time protected by the double waved yellows and the SC delta time. Then we get into the phase where the cars pass the scene the 3rd time either behind the safety car or trying to catch the safety car, restricted by the delta time.

So what I am thinking is, couldn't the ecu be used so that RC scramble a SAFETY MODE to all cars (instead of a physical SC), to reduce the cars to a pit lane speed limiter setting from 3 marshall posts before and after the scene, and the delta for the rest of the lap. I don't see why the cars need to actually bunch up in a queue, since they normally pass the scene a couple of times before this is achieved anyway... so it seems more designed to spice up the restart that any actual safety benefit...

[Ross Stonefeld]

You eventually need to get them in a pack behind the SC though, to give the incident area the maximum time without cars coming past.

[Xpat]

How is that many other race series manage to have safety/pace cars and not cause havoc?

If the incompetents in NASCAR and IndyCar can manage to circulate behind a pace car why can't the drivers at the pinnacle of motor-sport?

I suspect once Vettel brake checks someone and they vault over him and land on his head he will stop ****ing around. Only takes one of those to stop the shenanigans. Sort of self regulating.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What, like Fuji 2007

[Dolph]

What, like Fuji 2007

[SR388]

Wouldn't the cars be bunched up from a red flag?

[MrPodium]

Agree, but that could effectively be achieved without the physical presence of a safety car on track.

The whole process seems a bit ill-concived at the moment.

Lets say a big crash has happened, to one of the leaders, towards the end of a lap, early in a race. Bits of car everywhere and the driver still in the car.

Under the current system about 20-odd cars would pass protected by nothing other than double waved yellows during the critical first minute. Then once the safety car was scrambled, presumably the safety car failing to pick up the leader the first time around, many would all pass the scene again, the marshals this time protected by the double waved yellows and the SC delta time. Then we get into the phase where the cars pass the scene the 3rd time either behind the safety car or trying to catch the safety car, restricted by the delta time.

So what I am thinking is, couldn't the ecu be used so that RC scramble a SAFETY MODE to all cars (instead of a physical SC), to reduce the cars to a pit lane speed limiter setting from 3 marshall posts before and after the scene, and the delta for the rest of the lap. I don't see why the cars need to actually bunch up in a queue, since they normally pass the scene a couple of times before this is achieved anyway... so it seems more designed to spice up the restart that any actual safety benefit...

I've often wondered the same myself.

[ensign14]

No. The sign is telling you not to litter in the first place...

That's not what it says though.

You seem to have forgotten that the safety car is for situations where waved yellow flags aren't good enough, when cars/debris are stranded in blind spots or anywhere across the track itself, the speed of the cars is not a factor in the safety car being deployed because it is dangerous at all speeds in those situations.

That's what it's meant to be...

[Frank Tuesday]

It's better to have the field in one pack at an adjustable speed than spread all around, even going the same speed.

And it is better still to not have the cars out there at all. If there is an incident on the track, and workers are on the track, the race should be stopped. If it isn't safe to have cars passing at 40mph, it isn't safe. If you can't trust a driver to not run into a track worker at 40mph, then it doesn't matter if the cars are in one bunch or spread out.

If the incident is completely clear of the track, there is no reason that the drivers can't continue around the track at a reduces speed, but with the gaps maintained. If you can't trust a driver to not run off track at a reduced speed, they have no business driving an F1 car.

[ForeverF1]

Taking the thread title literally.
It has a roll cage in it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

And it is better still to not have the cars out there at all. If there is an incident on the track, and workers are on the track, the race should be stopped. If it isn't safe to have cars passing at 40mph, it isn't safe. If you can't trust a driver to not run into a track worker at 40mph, then it doesn't matter if the cars are in one bunch or spread out.

If the incident is completely clear of the track, there is no reason that the drivers can't continue around the track at a reduces speed, but with the gaps maintained. If you can't trust a driver to not run off track at a reduced speed, they have no business driving an F1 car.

If they're coming by every few seconds you don't have a good opportunity for the workers to be out there. In a pack behind the SC they only come by once every 2 minutes or so.

[flavio81]

Not to derail the thread but the SC is perhaps the unsafest car on the grid. Bernd Maylander has to drive at F1-car speeds, through all the turns, in a car that is very underpowered and much heavier than your regular F1 car. And sometimes he has to do it on extremely wet weather.

I really respect that guy.

[Frank Tuesday]

If they're coming by every few seconds you don't have a good opportunity for the workers to be out there. In a pack behind the SC they only come by once every 2 minutes or so.

I understand that. Do the workers go behind the safety fence when the cars come around behind the safety car? If the workers need to clear debris, it is either safe enough for cars to be out there or it isn't.

[Ross Stonefeld]

No but they may momentarily step out of the way.

[BullHead]

SC is the only sensible thing unless you want to stop / start the race all the time, which IMO would be silly, not to mention a rulebook headache.