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Button and Ham speeding safety car


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#1 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:30

How did they mange to speed whilst in the middle of the pack before the start? Can somebody explain this to me?

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#2 pacificquay

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:33

Institutional bias of the FIA against McLaren.

#3 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:34

I think they probably dropped back too far from the front of the pack and were then too quick while catching it up again.

Easily done i guess.

#4 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:39

I think they probably dropped back too far from the front of the pack and were then too quick while catching it up again.

Easily done i guess.

When Button was catching the pack back up after the penultimate safety car, he set a green S2 and a purple S3!!

In fact he almost set the fastest lap of race (+0.2 compared to Vettel's) despite coming out of the pits!!!!

That's not too fast though? Bizarre...

Edited by SpeedRacer`, 12 June 2011 - 21:40.


#5 sadler

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:45

For those that dont understand....

When a SC comes on track each car is given a target time on their electronic display to achieve, you must not go quicker than that time (which obviously Button and Hamilton did) The time can vary depending on track position hence the reason you saw Button running very quickly under the safety car later in the race as he was obviously given a very quick target time to enable him to catch the pack.

Its been brought in to stop cars running very quickly under SC conditions and racing back to the pits a la Brazil 2003 which can obviously mean running dangerously fast through accident zones potentially...

No McLaren bias im afraid!!

#6 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:48

For those that dont understand....

When a SC comes on track each car is given a target time on their electronic display to achieve, you must not go quicker than that time (which obviously Button and Hamilton did) The time can vary depending on track position hence the reason you saw Button running very quickly under the safety car later in the race as he was obviously given a very quick target time to enable him to catch the pack.

Its been brought in to stop cars running very quickly under SC conditions and racing back to the pits a la Brazil 2003 which can obviously mean running dangerously fast through accident zones potentially...

No McLaren bias im afraid!!

The target time must have been very, very sensitive under the first SC period then. I didn't see either McLaren driver leaving a big gap in front.

And how the hell can a target time be the fastest lap of the race? The whole point of the SC is to slow the cars down!

#7 johnmhinds

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:52

Maybe they were speeding just before the pack was formed behind the safety car, doing fast sector times as they caught up?

That's the only reason that would make sense to me, it can't have been after the queue of cars formed.

Edited by johnmhinds, 12 June 2011 - 21:54.


#8 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:55

Maybe they were speeding just before the pack was formed behind the safety car, doing fast sector times as they caught up?

That's the only reason that would make sense to me, it can't have been after the queue of cars formed.

But and Ham were both penalised for the first SC period, IE before the race had even began properly!

#9 D A

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:56

It was during the first SC directly after the race start. I looked at the sector times of Lewis and Button and neither of them build up any kind of gap to the driver in front so I haven't a clue as to how they could have both been speeding.

#10 joshb

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:57

When Button was catching the pack back up after the penultimate safety car, he set a green S2 and a purple S3!!

In fact he almost set the fastest lap of race (+0.2 compared to Vettel's) despite coming out of the pits!!!!

That's not too fast though? Bizarre...


I got that, something like a 29.0
surely though if it was speeding they'd have got him in for a drive thru

#11 sadler

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:58

The target time must have been very, very sensitive under the first SC period then. I didn't see either McLaren driver leaving a big gap in front.

And how the hell can a target time be the fastest lap of the race? The whole point of the SC is to slow the cars down!



Maybe they were speeding just before the pack was formed behind the safety car, doing fast sector times as they caught up?

That's the only reason that would make sense to me, it can't have been after the queue of cars formed.



But and Ham were both penalised for the first SC period, IE before the race had even began properly!



It was during the first SC directly after the race start. I looked at the sector times of Lewis and Button and neither of them build up any kind of gap to the driver in front so I haven't a clue as to how they could have both been speeding.

The fact it was both McLarens suggests to me that maybe they didnt get a target time on their dash or had some sort of problem with it, they were running in the pack with everyone else so obviously if they did go too quick it must have been very close!!

#12 Bleu

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 21:59

I can't understand how Lewis is involved since he was causing the safety car there and parked soon afterwards.

We had many incidents Valencia last year, but back then they only gave 5-second penalties as they didn't have much chance to slow down due to usual speed in the final sector.

#13 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 22:06

Ok if this isn't proof that Button was speeding after the ALO incident then I don't know what is!

This is his SECOND lap out of the pits after pitting for new tyres:

http://imageshack.us...45/img0226.png/

And this his THIRD lap (the race restarted AFTER this lap):

http://imageshack.us...5/img0227j.png/

So either

a) His deltas changed massively from one lap to the next
b) His delta was equal to the fastest lap of the race (which surely negates the whole SC rule if this is true)

#14 D A

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 22:09

Lap 1:
http://i.imgur.com/IF2eb.png
Lap 2:
http://i.imgur.com/C6v6c.png
Lap 3:
http://i.imgur.com/6Ek6x.png
Lap 4:
http://i.imgur.com/osgUc.png



#15 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 22:12

Lap 1:
http://i.imgur.com/IF2eb.png
Lap 2:
http://i.imgur.com/C6v6c.png
Lap 3:
http://i.imgur.com/6Ek6x.png
Lap 4:
http://i.imgur.com/osgUc.png

Excellent thanks for that. I think we have conclusive proof that the stewards messed up big-time today.

#16 Sausage

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 22:33

Lap 1:
http://i.imgur.com/IF2eb.png
Lap 2:
http://i.imgur.com/C6v6c.png
Lap 3:
http://i.imgur.com/6Ek6x.png
Lap 4:
http://i.imgur.com/osgUc.png


Weird. Nothing out of the ordinary. I hope some journo picks up on this and checks it out.

#17 HappySachs

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 23:34

How did they mange to speed whilst in the middle of the pack before the start? Can somebody explain this to me?

I'd love to know this too :confused:

#18 pingu666

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 23:42

there might be some automatic filter and it flagged them up for some reason, and hence investigated ?

#19 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:23

Can't help but wonder if they evened things out by not punishing him later...

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#20 sadler

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:23

Does anyone have data from the 2nd safety car period?? (caused by Hamilton parking it) have a feeling the penalties may be under this caution (I know that sounds stupid especially with Hamilton) but the investigation was announced whilst the 2nd safety car was out...

#21 Henrik B

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:31

Does anyone have data from the 2nd safety car period?? (caused by Hamilton parking it) have a feeling the penalties may be under this caution (I know that sounds stupid especially with Hamilton) but the investigation was announced whilst the 2nd safety car was out...


I think the notification about Hamilton was caused by a glitch - he was perhaps going TOO slow - but Buttons penalty was clearly because he was speeding back to the pit to change tyres. He even says so in the press conference. Why is people assuming it was the first SC period?

#22 Dunder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:34

I think the notification about Hamilton was caused by a glitch - he was perhaps going TOO slow - but Buttons penalty was clearly because he was speeding back to the pit to change tyres. He even says so in the press conference. Why is people assuming it was the first SC period?


I think it was intimated by the BBC commentators, probably because Hamilton's car was announced as being under investigation first.


#23 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:39

I m pretty certain it's for not respecting their deltas on lap 8, for the SC they caused. But I could be wrong

#24 Dunder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:40

I m pretty certain it's for not respecting their deltas on lap 8, for the SC they caused. But I could be wrong


It was indeed.


#25 P123

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:45

I m pretty certain it's for not respecting their deltas on lap 8, for the SC they caused. But I could be wrong


Hamilton never completed the first sector though, and didn't the SC come out after he stopped? I'm sure the speeding was mentioned before their altercation.

#26 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:50

Hamilton never completed the first sector though, and didn't the SC come out after he stopped? I'm sure the speeding was mentioned before their altercation.


Where did he park it do you remember? Cause I think he parked it right on the S1 beam (T5) and just glitched the system or something (I am obviously speculating, not saying that's what happened)

#27 LoudHoward

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:51

I can understand why people are looking at full sectors, but it doesn't prove anything either way. What are they doing in those sectors? If they slow down heaps, then speed up heaps they might have an overall normal looking sector but failing big time in the middle of it.

#28 Dunder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 23:00

Hamilton never completed the first sector though, and didn't the SC come out after he stopped? I'm sure the speeding was mentioned before their altercation.


No. They announced the investigation into the Hamilton/Webber just before Button and Hamilton collided. The speeding thing was after Button pitted.
I am fairly sure the investigation into Hamilton "speeding" was a glitch (maybe with the marshals wheeling the car back).


#29 Myrvold

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 23:07

And, as long as we don't know his deltas, it's pretty hard for us to tell if he was speeding or not, eh?

#30 pingu666

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 23:20

lewis was on 3 and a half wheels, so i doubt it was for going too quickly...

#31 sadler

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:11

I m pretty certain it's for not respecting their deltas on lap 8, for the SC they caused. But I could be wrong

Thats the conclusion ive come to after watching the race again, Button pits to go back to Wet Tyres and i assume he went too quickly (would make sense). As for Hamilton i can only guess it was a glitch in the system. Its rare for a car thats broken (that causes a safety car) to still be moving on track! Either the car is stopped or you're in the group of other cars not affected moving at normal speed. He also missed out Turns 1 and 2 just as the Safety Car was put on track (originally for debris on the Pit Straight) He didnt park it until after the Safety Car had been deployed.

Would be nice to have it explained..

Edited by sadler, 15 June 2011 - 15:14.


#32 Hippo

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:42

http://www.fia.com/e...s/on_event.aspx

Looks like the FIA knows they screwed this one up themselves. Unlike any other investigation and/or penalty they simply put it under the carpet and don't mention anything of it in their documents. It's good to know they run their business just like the FIFA does. :cool:

#33 Flux

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:09

It all makes no sense... during the first safety car, the McLarens would have had to have overtaken someone to have been speeding, since the race started behind the safety car.

During the second safety car, only Button could possibly have been speeding, since Hamilton was on three wheels and being overtaken by everyone, yet both McLarens came up as being under investigation for speeding.

I'd love to hear their explanation in the same way they presented their explanations for the Button/Hamilton Button/Alonso collisions.

#34 rdebourbon

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:18

It all makes no sense... during the first safety car, the McLarens would have had to have overtaken someone to have been speeding, since the race started behind the safety car.

During the second safety car, only Button could possibly have been speeding, since Hamilton was on three wheels and being overtaken by everyone, yet both McLarens came up as being under investigation for speeding.

I'd love to hear their explanation in the same way they presented their explanations for the Button/Hamilton Button/Alonso collisions.

Speeding under the safety car does not mean overtaking under the safety car..When the safety car is on track, all the cars have a predetermined minimum time per sector that they must conform to. Anyone who does a sector faster than the prescribed time is deemed as speeding under the safety car..



#35 Hippo

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:23

Speeding under the safety car does not mean overtaking under the safety car..When the safety car is on track, all the cars have a predetermined minimum time per sector that they must conform to. Anyone who does a sector faster than the prescribed time is deemed as speeding under the safety car..

Well thank you for that, Captain Obvious. This thread is about when and how Button and Hamilton managed to exceed their sector limits though.

#36 rdebourbon

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:27

Well thank you for that, Captain Obvious. This thread is about when and how Button and Hamilton managed to exceed their sector limits though.

If you bother to read the quote within my message you will see I was answering a post where the poster specifically mentioned overtaking as the reason for "speeding".. I was clarifying things for that specific forum user Captain Jump the Gun..

Seems a guy can't even help other forum users clarify when regs apply any more, because apparently its so obvious to all now, and we all must have got it via osmosis..

*goes back to ignoring this thread*

#37 blackonyx4

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:36

I just recheck the live timing from the race and there wasn`t the single lap under safety car in which Button was the fastest driver on the track.

Not only he wasn`t fastest in any of those laps, but he wasn`t fastest in any of the sectors during first two safety cars...

#38 Tsarwash

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:40

Remember that Lewis cut a massive corner, just after the accident. He had to turn very sharply when he returned to the track to not collide with JB a second time. It must have been that, that caused it for Lewis.
It was speeding under yellows, not the safety car, wasn't it ?

Edited by Tsarwash, 15 June 2011 - 17:41.


#39 onewingedangel

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:42

The FIA doesn't just work on the 3 sectors we get on live timing - it is split into even smaller sectors.

So his sector time for one of the three we get to see may look fine, but one of the subsections could have been above the speed limit.

Edited by onewingedangel, 15 June 2011 - 17:43.


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#40 Dunder

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:43

remember that Lewis cut a massive corner, just after the accident. He had to turn very sharply when he returned to the track to not collide with JB a second time. It must have been that, that caused it for Lewis.


The safety car was deployed 2 or 3 seconds before he stopped his car right round at turn 5.


#41 blackonyx4

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:48

The FIA doesn't just work on the 3 sectors we get on live timing - it is split into even smaller sectors.


Maybe it could be the moment when Jenson was exiting his pit stop the lap after his collision with Lewis. I remember he was going full speed out of the pits to try to get in front of Di Resta/Maldonado. :confused:

#42 Fox1

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 17:52

If you bother to read the quote within my message you will see I was answering a post where the poster specifically mentioned overtaking as the reason for "speeding".. I was clarifying things for that specific forum user Captain Jump the Gun..

Seems a guy can't even help other forum users clarify when regs apply any more, because apparently its so obvious to all now, and we all must have got it via osmosis..

*goes back to ignoring this thread*


I think Captain jump the gun raised a very good point that I would like to have answered as well.

#43 Flux

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 18:12

Speeding under the safety car does not mean overtaking under the safety car..When the safety car is on track, all the cars have a predetermined minimum time per sector that they must conform to. Anyone who does a sector faster than the prescribed time is deemed as speeding under the safety car..

No, I meant the only way they could have been speeding behind the first safety car is if they overtook someone, which they didn't. I just didn't word it too well.

Edited by Flux, 15 June 2011 - 18:14.


#44 HoldenRT

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 18:22

Never thought much of it at the time but this is interesting.

#45 Lazy

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 18:46

I heard that the team had made a minor calculation error with the delta but it was never explained.

#46 Hippo

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 18:48

I heard that the team had made a minor calculation error with the delta but it was never explained.

If I'm not mistaken the delta stuff is calculated by the standard ECU. They don't grab the calculator and try to come up with deltas on the pit wall.

#47 rdebourbon

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 19:01

If I'm not mistaken the delta stuff is calculated by the standard ECU. They don't grab the calculator and try to come up with deltas on the pit wall.

Do the FIA reports still show the version of the software running on the various ECUs.. I remember the reports used to show firmware version tested (they only have a list of 3? valid firmwares).. From memory Mclaren always had the later allowed version.. Perhaps its a bug?

#48 Hippo

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 19:22

Unfortunately not. It simply reads "Software version checks have been carried out on all cars." in the report. But if that software was buggy why did it malfunction only once, not more often given the vast amount of laps behind the SC? And why didn't the FIa care to publish the documents about the penalty like they did for every other mosquito fart?

#49 engel

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 19:37

Most logical explanation has been put forward on the last page, Button broke the delta trying to get to the pits and get a tyre change and Hamilton, probably by virtue of the fact he was parked right on the end of S1 probably got rolled around by marshals and bugged the system.

I m sure if there was something untoward in Button's penalty McLaren would have raised the issue

#50 hmm

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 19:54

From http://plus.autospor...eatest-victory/

Paddy Lowe: "Jenson got a drive-through for not meeting the safety car timing. He was a little bit too quick in one sector. In trying to make up the time he overcooked it."

And this was after he had pitted on lap 8 after collision with Hamilton.