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Button and Ham speeding safety car


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#51 ClubmanGT

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 21:44

Didn't McLaren have dash display problems in FP1?

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#52 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 09:21

I just recheck the live timing from the race and there wasn`t the single lap under safety car in which Button was the fastest driver on the track.

Not only he wasn`t fastest in any of those laps, but he wasn`t fastest in any of the sectors during first two safety cars...

Yes he did, but not in the first 2 safety cars. See my previous post regarding laps 39/40:

Ok if this isn't proof that Button was speeding after the ALO incident then I don't know what is!

This is his SECOND lap out of the pits after pitting for new tyres:

http://imageshack.us...45/img0226.png/

And this his THIRD lap (the race restarted AFTER this lap):

http://imageshack.us...5/img0227j.png/

So either

a) His deltas changed massively from one lap to the next
b) His delta was equal to the fastest lap of the race (which surely negates the whole SC rule if this is true)


The FIA evened things up by not punishing him for this incident. It's incredulous that the safety car delta for Button would be quicker than the fastest lap.

Edited by SpeedRacer`, 16 June 2011 - 09:23.


#53 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:00

Yes he did, but not in the first 2 safety cars. See my previous post regarding laps 39/40:



The FIA evened things up by not punishing him for this incident. It's incredulous that the safety car delta for Button would be quicker than the fastest lap.


On laps 39 and 40, the safety car had already picked up the leader. In this situation the 'deltas' are no longer applicable.



#54 blackonyx4

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:31

Yes he did, but not in the first 2 safety cars. See my previous post regarding laps 39/40:

The FIA evened things up by not punishing him for this incident. It's incredulous that the safety car delta for Button would be quicker than the fastest lap.



Anything other than first two SC periods is not relevant for this thread since Jenson wasnt under investigation for any other infraction.


And for the laps 38/39 (lap 40 was not under SC anymore), his delta time (if there was any) was too slow, since he wasnt able to catch the rear of the pack in two full laps. When race restarted he was some 4 seconds behind Liuzzi.

#55 femi

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:40

Didn't McLaren have dash display problems in FP1?


Yes buy on Lewis car and that was on Friday FPs.

#56 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:56

On laps 39 and 40, the safety car had already picked up the leader. In this situation the 'deltas' are no longer applicable.

So you can charge around at full racing speed as long as leader is behind the safety car? Seems strange.

Anything other than first two SC periods is not relevant for this thread since Jenson wasnt under investigation for any other infraction.

Actually I created the thread thanks, and I wanted to disucss this incident.

And for the laps 38/39 (lap 40 was not under SC anymore), his delta time (if there was any) was too slow, since he wasnt able to catch the rear of the pack in two full laps. When race restarted he was some 4 seconds behind Liuzzi.

The sector times were purple and green, and he did catch the pack actually (2 seconds behind penultimate car)

#57 Henrik B

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:13

So you can charge around at full racing speed as long as leader is behind the safety car? Seems strange.


Not if you consider that the reason the delta time rule was put in to stop people speeding to the pits (Alonso style). After they've passed the pits for the first time there's no reason to gamble - the positions are fixed, barring unforseen pitstops. Additionally, they are by that time supposed to know where the accident is and can adjust their speed accordingly.

#58 fisssssi

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:38

I have a question related to this incident, and that is how much time did Jenson actually lose taking the penalty?

I'm curious because I don't expect it was very much time at all. The pitlane entry and exit at Canada are very straightforward, missing out the final chicane and the first two corners. In the wet, the drivers would be taking these corners much slower while a driver through the pitline could probably go at normal dry speeds. Is there a good way to find out?



#59 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:49

I have a question related to this incident, and that is how much time did Jenson actually lose taking the penalty?

I'm curious because I don't expect it was very much time at all. The pitlane entry and exit at Canada are very straightforward, missing out the final chicane and the first two corners. In the wet, the drivers would be taking these corners much slower while a driver through the pitline could probably go at normal dry speeds. Is there a good way to find out?


Net time loss for a normal pitstop in Montreal was around 17 seconds.
For this drive-thru is would therefore have been around 12 seconds.

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#60 fisssssi

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:51

Net time loss for a normal pitstop in Montreal was around 17 seconds.


Was that in the wet or in the dry?


#61 george1981

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:55

Not if you consider that the reason the delta time rule was put in to stop people speeding to the pits (Alonso style). After they've passed the pits for the first time there's no reason to gamble - the positions are fixed, barring unforseen pitstops. Additionally, they are by that time supposed to know where the accident is and can adjust their speed accordingly.


I'm probably getting confused but I thought the delta time was brought in a few years ago after Raikkonen slowed to walking speed after the safety car had been deployed but hadn't caught the leaders. This bought him time and allowed his team mate up ahead to clear the pit before Raikkonen came in for his stop meaning he didn't have to be stacked behind and lose places or come in a lap later and go to the back of the field.
Afterward the ban on pitting under the safety car came in causing all sorts of trouble when pepole needed to come in for fuel and the pitlane was shut.


#62 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:58

Was that in the wet or in the dry?


Wet.
In the dry in 2010, the top teams were generally 'losing' 16 seconds.


#63 Hippo

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 20:26

It's still interesting how the information explaining this whole thing is only mentioned in a pay-to-read autosport interview and completely ignored by almost every sports media and even the FIA's own information service. Are there no proper journalists and no die-hard f1 followers anymore?! Weird...

#64 Henrik B

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 21:17

I'm probably getting confused but I thought the delta time was brought in a few years ago after Raikkonen slowed to walking speed after the safety car had been deployed but hadn't caught the leaders. This bought him time and allowed his team mate up ahead to clear the pit before Raikkonen came in for his stop meaning he didn't have to be stacked behind and lose places or come in a lap later and go to the back of the field.
Afterward the ban on pitting under the safety car came in causing all sorts of trouble when pepole needed to come in for fuel and the pitlane was shut.


I'm on my part betting on that there was some other incident giving the delta time - the stunt Raikkonen pulled was subsequently dealt with with another rule change/reinterpretation. FIA has been aware of the problem a long time (certainly since Alonso 2003) and tried various other ideas, including the closed pits.

A clear indication that it is to stop speeding is that you must go over the delta time - going slower, that is. Perhaps I should dig up the rule and check...

#65 Henrik B

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 21:25

Lex Räikkönen:

40.5 No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially
dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply
whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

Lex Alonso:

40.7 All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car
lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “SAFETY
CAR DEPLOYED” message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first
safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.

The word "second" is new for this year, I think last year it was only until you had passed the pits the first time. That got me confused earlier, I was going by last years rule. It says nothing about the leader queued up behind the SC though, the rule seem to be "drive between 1 and 2 laps according to the delta set by FIA, then you can use a suitable speed". Indeed, by that time they all have seen where the incident was.

#66 wdh

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 22:14

But and Ham were both penalised for the first SC period, IE before the race had even began properly!


It was a long and confusing race, but I'm sure I recall an on-screen caption that "Cars 3 & 4" (ie Hamilton and Button) were under investigation for speeding behind the safety car.
That FIA announcement was followed by Brundle & DC bantering to the effect that such 'investigation' tended to be fact based, that they wouldn't be 'investigated' unless there was evidence to show it, and so they would both doubtless be serving a penalty shortly.

Now, the thing is that my recollection is firmly that this announcement of the investigation was while Hamilton was still on-track -- before the McLarens tangled and the safety car came out for the second time.
Sure the penalty was announced after Hamilton's SC (or rather towards the end of it). But the investigation was announced much earlier, I believe.
I was surprised he stopped so soon (before much field spread) since AFAIK he had to stop within 3 laps of being penalised, but laps under SC didn't count.

So the investigation would have to have been regarding the FIRST (including the start) safety car period.
Because at the time when the "Stewards Investigation" banner came up on the screen, that was (I believe) the only safety car period.
If someone has a recording, perhaps they could check when the investigation was announced?


All this talk from Paddy Lowe about Button being caught speeding AFTER Hamilton had brought out the safety car, makes me consider reaching for the Tinfoil Hat. Was it really a mistaken penalty? Did McLaren, having won, want to gloss over it and help the FIA cover it up after the race? Or was Paddy Lowe elaborating beyond his factual knowledge?
This seems one of the most bizarre incidents in an extraordinary race.

FWIW, I think Button drove an amazingly mature endurance race. All the time playing the long game. I'm sure that he drove exceptionally on the drying track, even if the track came to his car's setup, but equally impressive was that he didn't push too hard or get frustrated at the times when his car was nowhere near the fastest on the track.
He drove a terrific race, and this kerfuffle shouldn't detract from that.


#67 engel

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 22:18

...


you remember wrong, why don't you just check the race on the iplayer?;)

Both investigations were announced while the Button/Hamilton induced SC was circulating, Button was given the penalty 1 lap before the SC came in and served it immediately.

#68 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:52

Lex Räikkönen:

40.5 No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially
dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply
whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

Lex Alonso:

40.7 All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car
lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “SAFETY
CAR DEPLOYED” message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first
safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.

The word "second" is new for this year, I think last year it was only until you had passed the pits the first time. That got me confused earlier, I was going by last years rule. It says nothing about the leader queued up behind the SC though, the rule seem to be "drive between 1 and 2 laps according to the delta set by FIA, then you can use a suitable speed". Indeed, by that time they all have seen where the incident was.

Thanks - that explains why Button was able speed back to the pack then on L40.

But yes I'm still not sure about the first speeding offense, either the commentators got it wrong or the FIA.

Edited by SpeedRacer`, 17 June 2011 - 07:52.


#69 Henrik B

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 09:35

Thanks - that explains why Button was able speed back to the pack then on L40.

But yes I'm still not sure about the first speeding offense, either the commentators got it wrong or the FIA.


Judging by this thread BBC seems to have confused the issue. On Swedish television there was no such confusion, the investigations on Hamilton and Button were announced well after Lewis and Jenson collided. Granted they might have missed the announcement themselves but they immediately picked up on the absurdity of Lewis being under investigation.

#70 sharo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 09:47

Lex Räikkönen:

40.5 No car may be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially
dangerous to other drivers or any other person at any time whilst the safety car is deployed. This will apply
whether any such car is being driven on the track, the pit entry or the pit lane.

Lex Alonso:

40.7 All competing cars must reduce speed and form up in line behind the safety car no more than ten car
lengths apart. In order to ensure that drivers reduce speed sufficiently, from the time at which the “SAFETY
CAR DEPLOYED” message is shown on the timing monitors until the time that each car crosses the first
safety car line for the second time, drivers must stay above the minimum time set by the FIA ECU.

The word "second" is new for this year, I think last year it was only until you had passed the pits the first time. That got me confused earlier, I was going by last years rule. It says nothing about the leader queued up behind the SC though, the rule seem to be "drive between 1 and 2 laps according to the delta set by FIA, then you can use a suitable speed". Indeed, by that time they all have seen where the incident was.

I think the "second time" must have been added after Valencia (Hamilton overtaking the SC race), when some of the drivers were caught approaching the SC line at high speed and physically could not comply with the delta time. Kubica was one of them IIRC.

#71 SpeedRacer`

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:30

Judging by this thread BBC seems to have confused the issue. On Swedish television there was no such confusion, the investigations on Hamilton and Button were announced well after Lewis and Jenson collided. Granted they might have missed the announcement themselves but they immediately picked up on the absurdity of Lewis being under investigation.

But how could Lewis have speeded behind the safety car with one wheel missing?

#72 Henrik B

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 11:50

But how could Lewis have speeded behind the safety car with one wheel missing?


He didn't? He probably triggered some glitch in the software - he perhaps stopped close to a timing beam and the marshalls pushed the car backwards over it. Whatever the reason, it surely was during the second safety car the investigation was announced.