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Aside from the finish, this was not a good day for F1 [merged]


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#1 fer312t

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 01:48

- It started with the race falling flat with the safety car start. Yes the conditions were challenging but this is the pinnacle or motorsport, and the standing start is the moment of the Grand Prix - and it is has become way too easily sacrificed over the past few season.

- The red flag and ensuing safety car running were excessively long. The was conclusively proven by the fact that cars were pitting for intermediates immediately after the race went back green.

If we wish to speak genuinely about making things more reasonable and less dangerous for the drivers there should be a total abandoning of parc ferme conditions once a wet race is declared.

- Race stewardship had too much of an oppressive presence the weekend (and so far this season.) The whole point of 'driver' stewards was to inject some consistency and objectivity into the situation, but if anything things are worse then ever. Every mistake - every racing incident has to be parsed and ends up 'under investigation'

Edited by fer312t, 13 June 2011 - 01:49.


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#2 carlb5253

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 01:57

I agree.

If common sense prevailed today we possibly could of had the best F1 race ever.

#3 advan031

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:11

I must have watch a different race today because the one I watched is an instant classic.

#4 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:20

I must have watch a different race today because the one I watched is an instant classic.


i watched this one too... perhaps I got mixed up when the swap from BBC1 to 2 happened?

#5 T-Mobile

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:44

- It started with the race falling flat with the safety car start. Yes the conditions were challenging but this is the pinnacle or motorsport, and the standing start is the moment of the Grand Prix - and it is has become way too easily sacrificed over the past few season.


Ok, I agree I love the standing start, but I don't feel slighted by having an absolutely stunning finish to the GP.

- The red flag and ensuing safety car running were excessively long. The was conclusively proven by the fact that cars were pitting for intermediates immediately after the race went back green.


Agreed, but overall it wasn't that big of a deal.

If we wish to speak genuinely about making things more reasonable and less dangerous for the drivers there should be a total abandoning of parc ferme conditions once a wet race is declared.


Agreed.


- Race stewardship had too much of an oppressive presence the weekend (and so far this season.) The whole point of 'driver' stewards was to inject some consistency and objectivity into the situation, but if anything things are worse then ever. Every mistake - every racing incident has to be parsed and ends up 'under investigation'


I don't know what to say here...when no action is taken everyone is yelling. When some action is taken everyone is yelling. Its like any sport, when the human element is introduced your bound to have differing opinions.

At any rate I absolutely enjoyed the race today. I really don't like Jensen Button, but who can't be impressed with his performance today. While I was hoping for a better result for Schumacher, this certainly was a classic GP.


Edited by T-Mobile, 13 June 2011 - 02:49.


#6 pingu666

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:51

I do wonder why they cant make a uberwet tyre, larger diamiter (to lift the car up), and more and deeper tread

#7 DanardiF1

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 02:56

I do wonder why they cant make a uberwet tyre, larger diamiter (to lift the car up), and more and deeper tread


UBER EXTREME WET

I like the idea, bigger, wider tyres for torrential rain...

#8 superstring

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 03:11

I do wonder why they cant make a uberwet tyre, larger diamiter (to lift the car up), and more and deeper tread


What would this accomplish? The full wet tires now is use raise the cars up (about 5mm, I believe). Raising the car further would probably ruin whatever downforce is produced under the car and make them even more prone to aquaplaning. But the real problem, as I see it, is no one except the front few can see anything in the spray and changing the tires won't change that.

#9 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 03:34

Raising the car further would probably ruin whatever downforce is produced under the car and make them even more prone to aquaplaning.


How do you figure the aquaplaning gets worse with more tread and more ride height? Half the time when the cars are aquaplaning, its on the skid block!

I think a return of the Monsoon tyres is exactly whats needed, and judging from Pirelli's response after the Monaco red flag they may yet be the one to initiate it if anything does happen.

#10 ClubmanGT

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 03:54

Agreed, but overall it wasn't that big of a deal.


Yes it was. We almost ran out of time today, and by the FIA logic, the race should never have started if they were waiting for it to dry out that much before restarting.

#11 Menace

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:00

I must have watch a different race today because the one I watched is an instant classic.



BTW, major kudos for FIA for continuing the race... what a brilliant ending to a great GP! :up:

#12 superstring

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:20

How do you figure the aquaplaning gets worse with more tread and more ride height? Half the time when the cars are aquaplaning, its on the skid block!........


Six of one, half dozen the other. More ground clearance = reduced downforce = aquaplaning. Raise the car and they'll aquaplane on the tires (more tread or not), not the skid plate.... is that better? Don't you think the engineers have thought about this? And, as I said, the real problem is zero visibility for everyone except the front few.

#13 Jomyboy

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:55

Why dont we have races like Monaco 96, Spain 97, Spa 98???? Why are the drivers being protected so much???? I agree the race was stopped rightly today when there was a flooding type situation on track, but when it got restarted, the safety car was out for far too long? It seems the safety cars are called in only when the track is clear enough for the cars to be fit on to inters. I want classic rain racing back. I dont care if only 3 cars finish at the end, but I want the best 3 to finish. The better wet racing drivers were robbed today I think and its very unfair. And why are the races behind started behind safety cars???? Hungaroring 2006, two champsionship contenders starting from 10th and 14th and we still had a normal start in atrocious wet conditions. Why is the FIA protecting the drivers of today?? Arent they good enough to handle the conditions????

Lastly, if the race is started as a wet race I think DRS should be banned for the entire race. Its a no show for me if a slower car driven by a skilful driver gets ahead in dangerous wet conditions only to have him with no defence on dry conditions.

#14 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 04:58

That's all rather easy for you to say.

#15 Ali_G

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 05:17

Everything was OK with the race except for the finish. The sight of MS being driven around due to the DRS and Koba losing his 5th place solely because of DRS was sickening.


People have got to realise that due to Parc Ferme rules, the cars aren't allowed to be properly setup for really wet weather. Tyre choice (monsoon tyres for instance) has nothing to do with it).

#16 ashnathan

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 05:31

I agree with everything posted. Paul Di Resta's penalty as an example was a farce. He didn't compromise Heidfelds race at all, he compromised his own, he didn't gain anything nor did Nick lose anything and it was the most minor contact yet still penalised. Put your whistles away gents let them race.

#17 PLAYLIFE

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 05:39

Someone will always focus on the negatives over the positives.

Sure I didn't like the SC start or the SC re-start. But if you're an F1 fan and weren't on the edge of your seat, you're watching the wrong sport.

Edited by PLAYLIFE, 13 June 2011 - 05:40.


#18 ensign14

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 05:50

I must have watch a different race today because the one I watched is an instant classic.

Largely though because of the artificiality of the pace car. We might have had an instant classic a la Canada 1989 WITHOUT such artificial aids.

#19 sergeym

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:08

How do you figure the aquaplaning gets worse with more tread and more ride height? Half the time when the cars are aquaplaning, its on the skid block!

I think a return of the Monsoon tyres is exactly whats needed, and judging from Pirelli's response after the Monaco red flag they may yet be the one to initiate it if anything does happen.


Increasing ride height means decreasing downforce which means making car even less stable. I think the only real way to be able to run in such weather is to build special rain only cars - which will never happen due to high costs.
And nothing will solve visibility problem - open wheel cars are always going to produce massive sprays.
So conclusion is - F1 is not suited for really wet races at all.

Edited by sergeym, 13 June 2011 - 06:08.


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#20 packapoo

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:17

I'm still dirty that Massa didn't get pinged after he couldn't make the following corner after his Kobayashi kamekaze.


#21 rommel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:25

It was disgusting watching the nannying by Whiting today. If it wasn't bad enough to start behind the SC, to spend 4 laps behind it in intermediate conditions was unbelievable, as was the restart where they spent 10 laps driving around until there was a dry line almost. Sad day for the sport and something needs to be done. The first thing that needs to be done is to stop listening to the whining of the drivers. They obviously don't want to take any real risks, even when its perfectly acceptable. Vettel was whining over the radio that certain sections of the track were undrivable, while at the same time driving through them lap after lap. Of course they are undrivable at high speed, but there is nothing stopping him just going slower.

It has come to the point where driving in the rain is almost banned now. A real insult to the legacy of the sport and previous generations of drivers.

#22 goldenboy

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:33

I really enjoyed the GP. Although luckily I slept thru it accidentally and watched it on iplayer thismorning as it was on at 3am here.

bit of controversy is good now and then! sure as hell filled up my whole day off for the public holiday we have here. awesome day lying in bed watching four hours of F1 and laughing at everyones angry comments in the race thread during the rain break hehe :up:

#23 phil1993

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:38

- SC start was debatable
- They should have red flagged it sooner, but anyone who thinks the red flag period was wrong needs their head checking
- They didn't need so many laps under the SC after the red flag period

The next 40 laps were ace

#24 Imolazilla

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:40

Just goes to show , you cant please everyone. I was more than happy! Apart from the two hours of waffle in the middle it was a spectacular race. All the SC issues and who spoiled who's race are standard fare for F1. I was even happy to see Schuey in contention for a while. I think it was one of the best wet races ever!

#25 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:41

Six of one, half dozen the other. More ground clearance = reduced downforce = aquaplaning. Raise the car and they'll aquaplane on the tires (more tread or not), not the skid plate.... is that better? Don't you think the engineers have thought about this? And, as I said, the real problem is zero visibility for everyone except the front few.


They have bugger all downforce in the rain as it is. Remember China '09 when the 'Bulls cleaned up and the Brawns diffuser was useless? Needless to say, if the teams could do it they'd be raising the ride height in the wet anyway, so lost downforce through extra ride height is a bit of a moot point. That the wet tyres are taller and thss raises the ride height and makes the suspension softer through polar movement achieves maybe half a wet setup anyway. Having a Monsoon tyre that is another step taller would achieve a similar goal.

Aquaplaning on the tyres IS better than the skid plate. At least the drivers can try and control the tyres through throttle and steering, what have they to control the skid plate? By most accounts aquaplaning on the skid block leaves the drivers completely out of control.

#26 advan031

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:42

I don't think race control would have been nannying today's race if it wasn't for the drivers complaining how un-driveable it was...

#27 FPV GTHO

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:44

I don't think race control would have been nannying today's race if it wasn't for the drivers complaining how un-driveable it was...


The drivers complaining always has an element of psychology to it. Vettel complaining today, just like Webber in Korea last year, could be mostly because they have more to lose than to gain. If Hamilton was still in it, just like in Korea, he'd probably be asking for them to continue.

#28 Eff One 2002

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:47

Sure, it's not too much of an issue that they stopped the race due to the torrential rain - that's something that has happened many times in the past throughout F1's history and it sometimes necessary. What I have a problem with is that now, every time the track is wet (and it wasn't even raining) Whiting gets the safety car out there and has the drivers ponce around for lap after lap instead of just letting the drivers start the race properly. The Canadian GP's start was just lame and pathetic, it really was. Lap after lap unecessarily under the safety car just because the track is wet. Let them start the damn race properly like pretty much all other classes of motor sport do when it's wet and stop wrapping the drivers in cotton wool. :mad: Anyone else sick and tired of this sanitised shit implemented unecessarily at the start of wet races?

Edited by Eff One 2002, 13 June 2011 - 23:57.


#29 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:51

Get over it.

#30 RedBaron

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:51

When the down pour came they were right to stop it, but that was 20 or so laps in. We could have had a race from lights out. Look how quickly the track dried after the final 'weather' safety car came out with the drivers circulating behind it.

There is only 1 way to dry a damp track with mild rain - Formula 1 cars.

- No safety car at the start
- After the red flag the race could have started much sooner.

#31 sergeym

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:53

I don't think race control would have been nannying today's race if it wasn't for the drivers complaining how un-driveable it was...


i think the drivers were right - you could see nothing on onboard, apart from rain light of the car in front.

#32 Meanbeakin

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:57

It was the first race the Pirelli wets were being used in the race, thye started under the safety car to give the drivers time to suss out the Pirelli wet's. It was only for 3 bloody laps anyways, calm down.

#33 advan031

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:59

Maybe you should try driving on the freeway/highway whatever you call it at 150 mph + when there is a downpour and tell us who is the pussy then.



#34 Fastcake

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:59

Part of me believes that the Safety car start was partially down to the unknown performance of the wet tyres. I don't think it was really that wet enough like previous SC starts, looks like they were just being cautious. The SC after the red flag I think we can all agree stayed out for far, far too long. There has to be a SC after a red flag, it's what the rules state so no getting around it, but apart from 3 or 4 laps to give drivers the condition of the track, it should of been straight back to racing. I also question why the car was brought out before the red flag so early. Unless there was something we were not privy to, I could not see a reason why racing could not carry on for another 5 minutes or so.

#35 faaaz

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:59

I dont think they should've started on the safety car. But you could argue that in such weather there would be carnage down turn 1, and the safety car would've been out after the first lap anyway.

#36 Chezrome

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:00

What would this accomplish? The full wet tires now is use raise the cars up (about 5mm, I believe). Raising the car further would probably ruin whatever downforce is produced under the car and make them even more prone to aquaplaning. But the real problem, as I see it, is no one except the front few can see anything in the spray and changing the tires won't change that.


Downforce has no relation to losing downforce, I think. Aquaplaning is either the effect of having so much water under the car, that the underside starts floating on the water, hence taking the pressure of the wheels, or that the tyres can't transport the water anymore and start floating. I believe the first effect - the bottom of the car - is the biggest problem for F1 cars at the moment. I am not an expert, but I think that if you raise the car significantly, you will have to lower the springsetting to get the grip you want. I think that current F1 cars can't even get springsettings that are soft enough for that.



#37 faaaz

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:01

Be happy you watched a good race and get over it. Life isn't perfect and neither is FIA or F1.

#38 Jomyboy

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:02

2 laps is enough ... anything more is just trying to give drivers who dont know to drive in the wet some advantage

#39 Jomyboy

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:04

Nobody is talking about easy???? I am supposed to believe these are the best 22 odd drivers in the world, then they surely can handle a bit of the extreme. If you cant handle it you can always drive slower. Who is stopping you from driving slower?

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#40 thuGG

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:04

I agree.

The SC start decision war ridiculous. The SC running after the restart was laughable.

#41 slideways

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:07

Maybe you should try driving on the freeway/highway whatever you call it at 150 mph + when there is a downpour and tell us who is the pussy then.


Give me a car that is 99% crash proof and 8 million pounds a year and I'll have a go.

Edited by slideways, 13 June 2011 - 07:07.


#42 Nobody

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:07

21 years ago, Prost would have won this wet race.

#43 rommel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:08

Maybe you should try driving on the freeway/highway whatever you call it at 150 mph + when there is a downpour and tell us who is the pussy then.


I don't get get paid millions to do it like F1 drivers. The current drivers and officials in the sport are an embaressment to the legacy of the sport. For decades they started in the rain, and raced in the rain in cars much less safe as todays, yet now they won't even start in damp conditions, they drive around until there is almost a dry line, its disgracful, and someone needs to step in and put a stop to this pattern because it is damaging the sport. It is already bad enough that they are removing curbs and barriers on all the fast corners, so there is no risk of hitting anything, like T3 at Spain, which is now just green painted tarmac with no curb, because the drivers did not want the risk of running wide and maybe hitting something.

No one is forcing them to take these risks. If they don't like it just get out of the car and park it or retire from the sport. Very simple choice, but stop ruining out sport. Whiting needs to go and they need a much harder person in there who will force the primadonna's to race like in the past. There has always been risk and danger in the sport and there always must be.

#44 bourbon

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:10

It was like 10 minutes... it didn't bother me at all. While I think the race start is usually the greatest moment of every race, having a couple of SC starts a year is also no problem for me. Perhaps I have a lot of patience, but I was fine with it. The reason they did it is immaterial.

Edited by bourbon, 13 June 2011 - 07:11.


#45 rommel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:10

i think the drivers were right - you could see nothing on onboard, apart from rain light of the car in front.


Been like that for about 40 years. Why change now especially when the cars are much safer? Senna won his first race in a washing machine driving a tin bath tub. These days that race would have been red flagged. Spain 96 was also terrible.

#46 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:11

I think all of this bellyaching comes from an underlying and perhaps unknown desire to see someone get killed or at least badly injured on live television. I'm not sure why else someone begs for more danger in something that is already relatively dangerous.

#47 GSiebert

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:12

One can wonder what full wets are for ? When its wet enough for them, SC goes out, and drives around until inters are better for the conditions.

#48 slideways

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:12

21 years ago, Prost would have won this wet race.


Or retire on lap 1 and whinge to the press.

#49 Eff One 2002

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:16

Get over it.


Real constructive counter argument there. :rolleyes: It's a valid point, plain and simple. The race should have been started normally.

When the down pour came they were right to stop it, but that was 20 or so laps in. We could have had a race from lights out. Look how quickly the track dried after the final 'weather' safety car came out with the drivers circulating behind it.

There is only 1 way to dry a damp track with mild rain - Formula 1 cars.

- No safety car at the start
- After the red flag the race could have started much sooner.


Indeed you make some good points. As I said fair enough stopping the race due to the torrential deluge, it was the pansying about at the start that was unecessary.

It was the first race the Pirelli wets were being used in the race, thye started under the safety car to give the drivers time to suss out the Pirelli wet's. It was only for 3 bloody laps anyways, calm down.


All calm here. :cool: I'm simply voicing my frustration and am wondering if other fans are sick of how wet races are started now, even when it's not even raining as it was in Canada.

Maybe you should try driving on the freeway/highway whatever you call it at 150 mph + when there is a downpour and tell us who is the pussy then.


Fundamentally flawed point there. The difference is that these people are professional racing drivers and starting a race from a standing start on a wet track is part and parcel of their occupation, at least it used to be.

Give me a car that is 99% crash proof and 8 million pounds a year and I'll have a go.


Yeah, you and me both... :)

I don't get get paid millions to do it like F1 drivers. The current drivers and officials in the sport are an embaressment to the legacy of the sport. For decades they started in the rain, and raced in the rain in cars much less safe as todays, yet now they won't even start in damp conditions, they drive around until there is almost a dry line, its disgracful, and someone needs to step in and put a stop to this pattern because it is damaging the sport. It is already bad enough that they are removing curbs and barriers on all the fast corners, so there is no risk of hitting anything, like T3 at Spain, which is now just green painted tarmac with no curb, because the drivers did not want the risk of running wide and maybe hitting something.

No one is forcing them to take these risks. If they don't like it just get out of the car and park it or retire from the sport. Very simple choice, but stop ruining out sport. Whiting needs to go and they need a much harder person in there who will force the primadonna's to race like in the past. There has always been risk and danger in the sport and there always must be.


Well said, and the moment that there is not in inherent level of risk and danger in motor sport, it is no longer motor sport.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 13 June 2011 - 07:20.


#50 Imolazilla

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:16

Better a Live Pussy that a Dead Pussy......Dont ask me how I know! :smoking: