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Prejudice: are we all affected?


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Poll: Prejudice: are we all affected? (38 member(s) have cast votes)

Hand on heart... Prejudiced at all?

  1. Yes (16 votes [42.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.11%

  2. No (10 votes [26.32%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.32%

  3. A little bit, maybe (12 votes [31.58%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.58%

Vote

#1 R2D2

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 18:03

I reckon I'm not a prejudiced person at all. At least, I thought I wasn't. After Button's rather shocking win at Canada I really thought that the stewards would have the last laugh, as they have done in the past. And the final shock was that they didn't go for the jugular. There are other threads about consistency and bias of the stewards, but it suddenly occurred to me that the events would take on a whole different light if the actors were changed in the drama... even to me. Some may argue that things would never have happened the same way, for whatever reasons, but that's not really the point here.

Imagine situation A: the real events, with Button squeezing Lewis into the wall, going up the inside of Alonso and having contact which results in Alonso retiring, then going on to win the race after being penalised for rule infringement, repairing damage from contact and briefly being in last place. Overall, do you feel comfortable with the legitimacy of Button's win? I think it's quite easy to do that.

Imagine situation B: alternate world, with Lewis and Button swapped. Would you feel differently about any of it? I was shocked to think that overwhelmingly I would. I really like Lewis and yet I can tell I'd have quite a different reaction to the same set of events.

That's pretty much the definition of prejudice. :( I know that it's definitely not based on race, but on the (perceived) personalities. Does anyone else feel the same? I think it's almost inevitable, given human nature and the way we are bombarded with the media's broad strokes representations of their victims. I suspect that this does actually go a long way to explaining the apparent bias of the stewards -- i.e. Lewis is more likely to get a raw deal. Other drivers have faced the same issues (Montoya and Senna, for example), while others have 'got away' with some really obviously actionable stuff (Schumie), so if you assume the complete absence of cold-hearted bias and corruption then it's certainly not just down to driving style. I could see di Resta and Kobayashi going either way -- will it be just down to the media making them 'interesting' or not?

It's certainly not fair, but should the drivers and the teams be actively taking this into account in some way?

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#2 SCUDmissile

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 18:07

one thing, is that if it was Lewis that went up the inside of Alonso, i think there may have been a different outcome. you just sense that when its these 2, the racing is even better, and it is a new level of excitement.

i hope we see more of it, but i dont think Alonso and Lewis would have acted the same, and they both could have ended up in the wall, and we may have seen
Lew vs Fred Part 4

#3 fastlegs

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 18:07

I reckon I'm not a prejudiced person at all. At least, I thought I wasn't. After Button's rather shocking win at Canada I really thought that the stewards would have the last laugh, as they have done in the past. And the final shock was that they didn't go for the jugular. There are other threads about consistency and bias of the stewards, but it suddenly occurred to me that the events would take on a whole different light if the actors were changed in the drama... even to me. Some may argue that things would never have happened the same way, for whatever reasons, but that's not really the point here.

Imagine situation A: the real events, with Button squeezing Lewis into the wall, going up the inside of Alonso and having contact which results in Alonso retiring, then going on to win the race after being penalised for rule infringement, repairing damage from contact and briefly being in last place. Overall, do you feel comfortable with the legitimacy of Button's win? I think it's quite easy to do that.

Imagine situation B: alternate world, with Lewis and Button swapped. Would you feel differently about any of it? I was shocked to think that overwhelmingly I would. I really like Lewis and yet I can tell I'd have quite a different reaction to the same set of events.

That's pretty much the definition of prejudice. :( I know that it's definitely not based on race, but on the (perceived) personalities. Does anyone else feel the same? I think it's almost inevitable, given human nature and the way we are bombarded with the media's broad strokes representations of their victims. I suspect that this does actually go a long way to explaining the apparent bias of the stewards -- i.e. Lewis is more likely to get a raw deal. Other drivers have faced the same issues (Montoya and Senna, for example), while others have 'got away' with some really obviously actionable stuff (Schumie), so if you assume the complete absence of cold-hearted bias and corruption then it's certainly not just down to driving style. I could see di Resta and Kobayashi going either way -- will it be just down to the media making them 'interesting' or not?

It's certainly not fair, but should the drivers and the teams be actively taking this into account in some way?


Not this again. :rolleyes:


#4 Grenada

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 18:30

I reckon I'm not a prejudiced person at all. At least, I thought I wasn't. After Button's rather shocking win at Canada I really thought that the stewards would have the last laugh, as they have done in the past. And the final shock was that they didn't go for the jugular. There are other threads about consistency and bias of the stewards, but it suddenly occurred to me that the events would take on a whole different light if the actors were changed in the drama... even to me. Some may argue that things would never have happened the same way, for whatever reasons, but that's not really the point here.

Imagine situation A: the real events, with Button squeezing Lewis into the wall, going up the inside of Alonso and having contact which results in Alonso retiring, then going on to win the race after being penalised for rule infringement, repairing damage from contact and briefly being in last place. Overall, do you feel comfortable with the legitimacy of Button's win? I think it's quite easy to do that.

Imagine situation B: alternate world, with Lewis and Button swapped. Would you feel differently about any of it? I was shocked to think that overwhelmingly I would. I really like Lewis and yet I can tell I'd have quite a different reaction to the same set of events.

That's pretty much the definition of prejudice. :( I know that it's definitely not based on race, but on the (perceived) personalities. Does anyone else feel the same? I think it's almost inevitable, given human nature and the way we are bombarded with the media's broad strokes representations of their victims. I suspect that this does actually go a long way to explaining the apparent bias of the stewards -- i.e. Lewis is more likely to get a raw deal. Other drivers have faced the same issues (Montoya and Senna, for example), while others have 'got away' with some really obviously actionable stuff (Schumie), so if you assume the complete absence of cold-hearted bias and corruption then it's certainly not just down to driving style. I could see di Resta and Kobayashi going either way -- will it be just down to the media making them 'interesting' or not?

It's certainly not fair, but should the drivers and the teams be actively taking this into account in some way?



I'm not prejudiced but I think a lot are - on here, the stewards, maybe a race boss ... Unlike you, I do think it is down to race, but it will never be admitted. Why else is Hamilton the one who is treated more harshly? There is one striking difference. People feel uncomfortable talking about this stuff, and it will never to owned up to, so all you'll get on this thread is outrage and denials.

One of the things I notice is the sniping at Lewis' friends who come to support him - they get more criticism because they are black IMO. It's not v. subtle. Even if he also has white friends who support him like Steven Spielberg and George Lucas or fellow sports stars, all people mention is the "hip hoppers" as if being a rapper is somehow tantamount to being undesirable. It's their colour that rankles IMO.

Just one example of what you are talking about is Spa 2008. He overtook by cutting a chicane, but despite giving the place back as instructed by Charlie Whiting, and despite the team asking if that was enough, he still got a penalty when there wasn't actually any rule that said he should (they had to make one up at the next race). And he lost his race win! (And people say he scraped the WDC that year - jeez they have bad memories.) That would never have happened to any other driver - proof being Button winning despite taking both Hamilton and Alonso out. And all the papers have for the headlines is the Lauda quote (a raving maniac if ever I saw one) saying it was all Hamilton's fault.

I think Hamilton has to endure more mind games, prejudice and unfairness than any other driver.

Edited by Grenada, 13 June 2011 - 19:36.


#5 Sausage

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 18:55

Prejudice based on previous actions by a same individual isn't that much prejudice though is it? I mean if some dog keeps biting me in the ass I'm certain to watch my ass next time he comes up to me. Likely when he does indeed bite my ass I will talk differently about it than if another dog bites me in the ass that had never bitten me in the ass before.

In sports good referees and stewards should be void of such feelings and judge each race as a fresh start, a new page, but we fans don't need to. I mean you shouldn't feel bad about it. After all human emotion is what drives our interest in sports.

#6 Bloggsworth

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 19:02

I'm vehemently opposed to this kind of poll...

#7 Guizotia

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 19:06

Prejudice based on previous actions by a same individual isn't that much prejudice though is it? I mean if some dog keeps biting me in the ass I'm certain to watch my ass next time he comes up to me. Likely when he does indeed bite my ass I will talk differently about it than if another dog bites me in the ass that had never bitten me in the ass before.

In sports good referees and stewards should be void of such feelings and judge each race as a fresh start, a new page, but we fans don't need to. I mean you shouldn't feel bad about it. After all human emotion is what drives our interest in sports.


This.

Lewis would be judged differently based on a different "impression" of him and his past actions that may not be at all accurate.

Like the BBC today saying that Hamilton went to the stewards for the contact with Button but "escaped punishment"... small inaccurate phrases like that colour people's judgement.

Edited by Guizotia, 13 June 2011 - 19:08.


#8 404KF2

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 19:15

The political correctness of meting out justice on the spot or a few hours after a race is over is annoying. If the drivers are dangerous, lift their licences. If not, let 'em race.

#9 Rob

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 19:16

Everyone is prejudiced in one way or another.

#10 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 19:17

There are only two things I can't stand in this world, people who are prejudiced against other people... and the Dutch!

#11 Myrvold

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 19:45

I'm not, however, when a driver constantly are involved in episodes it is easier to penalize him/her more. Because a driver that gets penalized, and doesn't drive better, or still is involved in episodes, hasn't learned.

#12 Tsarwash

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:13

I am not prejudiced in any way about skin colour or ethnic origin. But, I am sure that we are all culturally prejudiced to some extent at least and it is difficult to avoid.

For instance I don't really get on well with the Jamaican way of trying to acquire stuff or get your own way, and the conflict that ensues if you don't achieve this. And This is because I didn't grow up immersed in this culture and do not expect people to act in this fashion.

Regarding Lewis, I think that it is a bit of both things now. Firstly there is some inherent recism knocking around, and also some people do not like his bolshy arrogant attitude that he sometimes carries. It is actually no different from Michael Schumacher in his prime. A lot fo us has to ask questions of ourselves about why we didn't like him so much. Obviously the racism is a lot more acceptable because he is not black but German. And also he had this very arrogant, unapologetic attitude, that rubbed some people up the wrong way.

#13 Buttoneer

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:18

Sorry but we don't want threads designed to create discussion about other posters or fans.