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Practicing what you preach! Allan mcnish


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#1 jesee

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 20:57

I watched the crash of Allan mcnish and before i say anything else, i want to say that i was extremely happy that he survived apparently with no serious injury. However please compare this:




with this:

http://www.wat.tv/vi...kef_2hffh_.html

He was a steward at Monaco who decided that Hamilton's driving was not up to standard and gave him a drive through, yet a week later he goes and makes such an error especially when lapping a backmarker. What does that say about practicing what you preach? In both cases, i would have said they were racing incidents......but he should have known better.

Edited by jesee, 13 June 2011 - 20:58.


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#2 TFLB

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:02

I watched the crash of Allan mcnish and before i say anything else, i want to say that i was extremely happy that he survived apparently with no serious injury. However please compare this:




with this:

http://www.wat.tv/vi...kef_2hffh_.html

He was a steward at Monaco who decided that Hamilton's driving was not up to standard and gave him a drive through, yet a week later he goes and makes such an error especially when lapping a backmarker. What does that say about practicing what you preach? In both cases, i would have said they were racing incidents......but he should have known better.

Yet another Hamilton fanboy thread. The incidents were completely different. In Hamilton's case, he made a move that was only ever going to end in tears. In Mcnish's case, he was unsighted by his team-mate and hit the Ferrari, which was going much slower.

#3 P123

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:02

I watched the crash of Allan mcnish and before i say anything else, i want to say that i was extremely happy that he survived apparently with no serious injury. However please compare this:




with this:

http://www.wat.tv/vi...kef_2hffh_.html

He was a steward at Monaco who decided that Hamilton's driving was not up to standard and gave him a drive through, yet a week later he goes and makes such an error especially when lapping a backmarker. What does that say about practicing what you preach? In both cases, i would have said they were racing incidents......but he should have known better.


He was only 1 of 4 stewards.

#4 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:03

:rolleyes:

#5 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:03

Eh? What does being a steward at Monaco have to do with him making a mistake and crashing at Le Mans? I haven't seen him say that Hamilton's driving wasn't upto standard. You also obviously forget that McNish was 1 of 4 stewards at Monaco. He didn't make the decisions himself. He helped the other stewards understand things from a drivers perspective so they could bear that in mind when making the decisions. He didn't make the decisions, the team of stewards did, and there's NOTHING that I've seen which suggests that all stewards have to agree regarding whether penalties are given, and what penalties they are. He may have disagreed with the penalties given out. Saying he should practice what he preaches is rather silly in all honesty. Have you never seen a driver make a mistake before? As I said, him being a steward at Monaco has absolutely nothing to do with him making a mistake and crashing at Le Mans.

#6 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:03

Le Mans != F1

the equivalent would be Hamilton in an F1 car trying to overtake Maldonado in a Formula 3 car

#7 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:06

I watched the crash of Allan mcnish and before i say anything else, i want to say that i was extremely happy that he survived apparently with no serious injury. However please compare this:




with this:

http://www.wat.tv/vi...kef_2hffh_.html

He was a steward at Monaco who decided that Hamilton's driving was not up to standard and gave him a drive through, yet a week later he goes and makes such an error especially when lapping a backmarker. What does that say about practicing what you preach? In both cases, i would have said they were racing incidents......but he should have known better.


Has he said the accident wasn't his fault? I have only seen one angle which isn't enough to conclude on the incident either way.

Racing is high pressure and people make mistakes but it's the stewards job to enforce the laws prescribed. I disagreed with Hamiltons penalty for the Maldanado incident, just to be clear.

#8 P123

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:06

Le Mans != F1

the equivalent would be Hamilton in an F1 car trying to overtake Maldonado in a Formula 3 car


Yep, there is no similarity, except for the volume of people rushing to blame McNish, universally failing to account for the massive difference in speed between the respective cars.

Anyway, I forsee this becoming yet another bitch at Hamilton/ bitch about Hamilton's penlaties topic.

Edited by P123, 13 June 2011 - 21:07.


#9 scheivlak

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:08

In both cases, i would have said they were racing incidents......but he should have known better.

I think McNish was clearly at fault. He should have seen there was quite a queue ahead of that other Audi and committed himself far too much by passing his teammate and just hoping it would all turn out right.

#10 alan

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:10

I think the poster is talking of the principle. Both are racing incidents...but Alan concluded differently when the shoe was on another foot. I think that is the beef!

#11 BigWicks

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:10

i agree with the threadstarter tbh, moronic move in a 24 hour race

#12 Myrvold

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:13

U kidding me? And, which driver doesn't know what to do, and what the rules are. But name one driver that in his/hers whole career haven't made a mistake that have broken a rule?

... speachless.

#13 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:13

I think the poster is talking of the principle. Both are racing incidents...but Alan concluded differently when the shoe was on another foot. I think that is the beef!


But he didn't. As mentioned, he was part of a team of 4 stewards. He doesn't make the decisions. He advises the stewards on incidents from a drivers perspective. Has anybody actually got any proof that he personally decided Hamilton's driving wasn't up to standard? The stewards don't all have to agree. I haven't seen McNish come out and criticise Hamilton's driving on Monaco.

#14 olliek88

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:16

People really need to remember that the driver steward doesn't make the final decision when it comes to dishing out penalties, the driver is there for his opinion only, its the three official FIA stewards who make the final decision and are responsible for it, wether its the correct one or not. Allan or whoever the driver steward may be aren't the ones responsible, the FIA stewards have the final say.

#15 pingu666

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:19

guess you missed his interview at sebring
<interviewer>got abit close with the peguot there <allan>nah, its never too close

but he was one of four guys, so who knows what his vote was...

#16 iotar

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:19

Hamilton was warned and penalised for dirty defending and yet he's whining about "unfair" (in his mind) defending moves and how overtaking is difficult. Practising what you preach!!!! Lewis Hamilton.
McNish added to the long list of people blamed by Hamilton's supporters for his poor driving in the recent races. It's never of course Hamilton's fault.

#17 jesee

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:21

Iam not blaming Alan for the crash at Le Mans......mistakes happen and drivers are human...they make errors. In Hamilton case, you could argue he made an error just like Alonso and Button incident or Webber versus Hamilton. However, as one of the people who made a decision to punish Hamilton in Monaco, it was suprising to see him go out and make such a moronic move. Hamilton has been criticized left right and center while such driving by a so called steward adviser is accepted as an error...which of corse i agree with. My quarrel is with the hypocrisy.

Edited by jesee, 13 June 2011 - 21:21.


#18 jonnoj

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:24

He was a steward at Monaco who decided that Hamilton's driving was not up to standard and gave him a drive through, yet a week later he goes and makes such an error especially when lapping a backmarker. What does that say about practicing what you preach? In both cases, i would have said they were racing incidents......but he should have known better.



McNish was one of three stewards.





#19 Dunder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:25

Iam not blaming Alan for the crash at Le Mans......mistakes happen and drivers are human...they make errors. In Hamilton case, you could argue he made an error just like Alonso and Button incident or Webber versus Hamilton. However, as one of the people who made a decision to punish Hamilton in Monaco, it was suprising to see him go out and make such a moronic move. Hamilton has been criticized left right and center while such driving by a so called steward adviser is accepted as an error...which of corse i agree with. My quarrel is with the hypocrisy.


If McNish did speak in favour of penalising Hamilton in Monaco that is not the same as "preaching".

Are you going to search out all the incidents Fittipaldi, Mansell, Prost, Kristiansen, Herbert and all the other driver stewards have been involved in and call them hypocrites too?

Edited by Dunder, 13 June 2011 - 21:26.


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#20 ImDDAA

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:27

Iam not blaming Alan for the crash at Le Mans......mistakes happen and drivers are human...they make errors. In Hamilton case, you could argue he made an error just like Alonso and Button incident or Webber versus Hamilton. However, as one of the people who made a decision to punish Hamilton in Monaco, it was suprising to see him go out and make such a moronic move. Hamilton has been criticized left right and center while such driving by a so called steward adviser is accepted as an error...which of corse i agree with. My quarrel is with the hypocrisy.


To be fair, although I don't really agree with you - your argument is much more reasonable than people in this thread are trying to make out. So many needless people on this forum are now calling you a Hamilton fan boy and an adult discussion is once again stopped in it's tracks.

#21 jesee

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:33

If McNish did speak in favour of penalising Hamilton in Monaco that is not the same as "preaching".

Are you going to search out all the incidents Fittipaldi, Mansell, Prost, Kristiansen, Herbert and all the other driver stewards have been involved in and call them hypocrites too?


He spoke in favor of punishment. Fair point. Then he goes out and make an even than worse moronic move. What is he all about then? As for former drivers, they have not yet made a stupid call then gone out and committed the same offense. I have watched Le Mans for a long time and i cannot remember such kind of racing error...note my words ..."racing error". If you are referee in one match and you punish a player for what you consider inconsiderate, then you should expected to uphold such a high standard. That is my point.

#22 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:33

Iam not blaming Alan for the crash at Le Mans......mistakes happen and drivers are human...they make errors. In Hamilton case, you could argue he made an error just like Alonso and Button incident or Webber versus Hamilton. However, as one of the people who made a decision to punish Hamilton in Monaco, it was suprising to see him go out and make such a moronic move. Hamilton has been criticized left right and center while such driving by a so called steward adviser is accepted as an error...which of corse i agree with. My quarrel is with the hypocrisy.


So what if he was a steward in Monaco. That has NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING to do with him making a mistake at Le Mans, and you know it. How can you basically call it hypocrisy? McNish was part of a team of stewards. To call it hypocrisy because he then made a mistake 2 weeks later, and to say he should practice what he preaches is nothing short of utter lunacy in all honesty. McNish made a mistake. That has NOTHING to do with him being a steward at Monaco. Nothing. Don't try and make it seem like it does, because you know it doesn't.

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 13 June 2011 - 21:34.


#23 jesee

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:42

So what if he was a steward in Monaco. That has NOTHING, i repeat NOTHING to do with him making a mistake at Le Mans, and you know it. How can you basically call it hypocrisy? McNish was part of a team of stewards. To call it hypocrisy because he then made a mistake 2 weeks later, and to say he should practice what he preaches is nothing short of utter lunacy in all honesty. McNish made a mistake. That has NOTHING to do with him being a steward at Monaco. Nothing. Don't try and make it seem like it does, because you know it doesn't.


Look here, if i punish you for "stupid driving" during a race iam a stewarding...then having set that high standard...i should be judged by the same. When i then go out and make the same "what i had called stupid driving", it means iam a hypocrite....i should have driven better. However, if i conclude that you didn't actually do "stupid driving" but made an error, then when i make the same error i still remain faithful to the principle that an error happens.

#24 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:43

Iam not blaming Alan for the crash at Le Mans.



Then he goes out and make an even than worse moronic move.


Make your mind up FFS

#25 Dunder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:43

He spoke in favor of punishment. Fair point. Then he goes out and make an even than worse moronic move. What is he all about then? As for former drivers, they have not yet made a stupid call then gone out and committed the same offense. I have watched Le Mans for a long time and i cannot remember such kind of racing error...note my words ..."racing error". If you are referee in one match and you punish a player for what you consider inconsiderate, then you should expected to uphold such a high standard. That is my point.


............. and my point is that using that criteria, no driver past or present is qualified to be a driver steward.

They have all been involved in incidents and made the same type of mistake that they will be called upon to assess in the FIA role.


#26 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:45

He spoke in favor of punishment. Fair point. Then he goes out and make an even than worse moronic move. What is he all about then? As for former drivers, they have not yet made a stupid call then gone out and committed the same offense. I have watched Le Mans for a long time and i cannot remember such kind of racing error...note my words ..."racing error". If you are referee in one match and you punish a player for what you consider inconsiderate, then you should expected to uphold such a high standard. That is my point.



You still don't grasp the differences

a) Mc Nish was LAPPING Beltoise
b) Beltoise had not one but two prototypes behind him into a corner, he should have moved the hell out of their way
c) Mc Nish was unsighted by the #1 Audi


#27 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:49

Look here, if i punish you for "stupid driving" during a race iam a stewarding...then having set that high standard...i should be judged by the same. When i then go out and make the same "what i had called stupid driving", it means iam a hypocrite....i should have driven better. However, if i conclude that you didn't actually do "stupid driving" but made an error, then when i make the same error i still remain faithful to the principle that an error happens.


Oh please. If it was that 1 driver making the decision, which it is NOT, then you might have the tiniest point. But you don't. McNish is part of a team of stewards. Can you provide me with absolute proof that he penalised him, or that he agreed with the decision to penalise Hamilton? To say McNish is a hypocrit because he was part of a team of stewards that gave a penalty to Hamilton and then made a mistake himself is bonkers. Using your theory no driver or ex driver should be a drivers steward, because they'll all have made silly mistakes in the past, if not in the future as well, and so therefore their past mistakes should be judged in the same way as the mistakes they're punishing or criticising other drivers for now, because using your theory you'll say that the driver in the past that made a silly mistake isn't a suitable candidate to dish out penalties to other drivers for poor driving because they didn't have the same high standard of driving when making their own mistakes in the past (though of course you'd probably still forget that it's a team of stewards, and not all of them have to agree on the same thing for a decision to be made).

Edited by HuddersfieldTerrier1986, 13 June 2011 - 21:50.


#28 Slyder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:50

Furthermore, why the hell are you blaming McNish for penalizing Hamilton. He's 1 of 4 stewards who made the decision. You don't know what his opinion was on the incident. For all we know he could've been against the decision of penalizing him but got overriden by the other 3.

Very stupid thread.

#29 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:52

Furthermore, why the hell are you blaming McNish for penalizing Hamilton. He's 1 of 4 stewards who made the decision. You don't know what his opinion was on the incident. For all we know he could've been against the decision of penalizing him but got overriden by the other 3.


Yup. Wasn't it Hungary last year where I think it was Derek Warwick was the drivers steward and he wanted to black flag Schumacher but the other stewards said no and basically outvoted him 3-1 in favour of not black flagging him? I'm pretty certain that happened, having read his interview in the latest edition of F1 racing.

#30 Kop Alonso

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:58

Eh? What does being a steward at Monaco have to do with him making a mistake and crashing at Le Mans? I haven't seen him say that Hamilton's driving wasn't upto standard. You also obviously forget that McNish was 1 of 4 stewards at Monaco. He didn't make the decisions himself. He helped the other stewards understand things from a drivers perspective so they could bear that in mind when making the decisions. He didn't make the decisions, the team of stewards did, and there's NOTHING that I've seen which suggests that all stewards have to agree regarding whether penalties are given, and what penalties they are. He may have disagreed with the penalties given out. Saying he should practice what he preaches is rather silly in all honesty. Have you never seen a driver make a mistake before? As I said, him being a steward at Monaco has absolutely nothing to do with him making a mistake and crashing at Le Mans.


+1

:up:

#31 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:58

b) Beltoise had not one but two prototypes behind him into a corner, he should have moved the hell out of their way


Show me the regulation that says he has to, this is not F1, the GT cars don't have to get out of the way.

It was a racing incident, a complete accident, not a mistake on either part IMO, just that circumstances combined at that split second very badly. McNish arrives a fraction of a second before or after and this is all very different.

#32 Tufty

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 21:59

b) Beltoise had not one but two prototypes behind him into a corner, he should have moved the hell out of their way

No he shouldn't, Le Mans rules are that the backmarker simply holds the racing line.

#33 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:01

Show me the regulation that says he has to, this is not F1, the GT cars don't have to get out of the way.

It was a racing incident, a complete accident, not a mistake on either part IMO, just that circumstances combined at that split second very badly. McNish arrives a fraction of a second before or after and this is all very different.


it basic racing etiquette ... the prototypes are going to lap the GT cars a couple of hundred times, no point getting in their way. Witness the Rockenfeller crash (the #1 Audi that unsighted Mc Nish during his incident)

#34 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:01

Show me the regulation that says he has to, this is not F1, the GT cars don't have to get out of the way.


The Radio Le Mans guys had a very similar standpoint, in that in sportscars, a blue flag (which he'll have been shown) doesn't really mean "you're going to go a lap down, move over" or "a faster car in a faster class is going to pass you, move over", it basically means "be aware that a faster car is catching you and is going to try to pass you".

#35 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:05

No he shouldn't, Le Mans rules are that the backmarker simply holds the racing line.


That's half the rule, the other half is that he should be aware that a faster car is approaching and may overtake when it's safe to do so

#36 alan

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:20

That's half the rule, the other half is that he should be aware that a faster car is approaching and may overtake when it's safe to do so


'may overtake when it's safe to do so" Aha! Isn't that what a former steward observe especially when it is known he penalized a driver for an error that he then himself makes?

#37 Callisto

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:25

wow the crash looked pretty bad on the video :eek:

#38 engel

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:26

'may overtake when it's safe to do so" Aha! Isn't that what a former steward observe especially when it is known he penalized a driver for an error that he then himself makes?


O go watch the incident, Beltoise was staying in front of the #1 Audi, McNish passed the sister car an probably wasn't even aware the Ferrari was there. Besides, Mc Nish was fully alongside Beltoise when Beltoise turned in to the corner, my opinion, Beltoise just didn't expect a second prototype there. But when McNish made his move the road was clear, there was no "maldonado" there taking an early apex fighting for position.

#39 Slyder

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:26

Now we have apples and oranges here.

Blue flag in F1, as far as I know DOES mean "slow car move out of the way". They actually give you 3 chances with the blue flags, otherwise you get a penalty.



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#40 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:32

'may overtake when it's safe to do so" Aha! Isn't that what a former steward observe especially when it is known he penalized a driver for an error that he then himself makes?


Is it known that he penalised him? Not unless someone can provide absolute proof that McNish personally voted for/agreed with the proposal to penalise Hamilton it isn't. I've yet to see that. Also you do realise don't you that it wasn't unsafe for Hamilton to try to pass Massa. He made an attempt, and he failed in his attempt. Was it unsafe? No. You're getting confused between 2 cars fighting for position in an F1 race at Monaco, and 2 cars with 1 far faster than the other and in the process of lapping the slower driver at Le Mans. BIG difference.

#41 MaxisOne

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:35

Make your mind up FFS



+1


Fact ... we cannot establish what Alan voted for in terms of sanctions for Monaco as he is one of three stewards.

Fact.... Alan is not presently a formula 1 driver .. hes presently a Le Mans series driver.. which is a totally different ballgame.


I can't believe all this crying over Hamiltons penalties.. Mind you i agree with the Hairpin penalty as one was previously issued to Di Resta for the same exact thing.. I dont agree with the Maldonado turn in penalty as Maldonado indeed turned in (in my opinion). But Monaco is done and dusted .. whats the point of berating a man who almost lost his life on Saturday?

Are you kids that desperate and argumentative ?

#42 HP

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 22:54

Not comparable with Monaco at all, Hamilton didn't have another car between him and the one he overtook.

That's half the rule, the other half is that he should be aware that a faster car is approaching and may overtake when it's safe to do so

Common, read what both LeMans drivers gave to protocol.

My opinion was and is it's a racing incident, triggered by an opportunistic move of McNish. There were 2 cars ahead of the Ferrari as well, so in the end McNish lunged for a gap that never really existed. The line he took made sense if he could clear the Ferrari quickly enough. That part of the issue becomes crystal clear when you read McNish's comments after the race. He was asked if it's more difficult to overtake since the LPM1 cars have less power than in previous years. He agreed to it. So in the end it's an error of judgment by him.

Still for me it's a racing incident, nothing worth of a penalty.

Edited by HP, 13 June 2011 - 22:58.