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How would F1 change if drivers were allowed to ram drive each other off the track?


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#1 karlth

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 00:40

I'm just wondering what effect it would have. Would it create total chaos during the season or would Adam Smith and caution prevail when a driver knew that taking another driver out would mean repercussions in the next race?

So what do you say? Strict stewarding on track or law of the jungle?





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#2 Richard T

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 00:45

When I did junior touring cars in Sweden it was basically law of the jungle, it didn't work very well...

#3 karlth

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:01

When I did junior touring cars in Sweden it was basically law of the jungle, it didn't work very well...


I thought NASCAR worked a bit like that. Drivers working together for the tow and then during collisions revenge often being taken in the next race.


#4 ch103

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:08

I thought NASCAR worked a bit like that. Drivers working together for the tow and then during collisions revenge often being taken in the next race.


pretty much - see harvick v. busch

#5 Disgrace

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:10

Not much would change other than if it came down to the championship finale and you were ahead of your one other competitor who could beat you. But then this didn't stop Prost/Senna/Schumacher so perhaps no difference at all.

#6 bourbon

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:19

Ridiculous in terms of the commercialism of the sport - I know everyone boo's the idea of commercialism, but without it, there is no money to keep the cars rolling. Fans tune in to see their favorite teams and drivers and if it is sheer chaos, that can and will be lost on any given Sunday from time to time, with favorite drivers and whole teams out of the race. Now you might pick up a new element of fans that like the chaotic racing and don't care one way or another if their team is out, but I think you lose a lot more loyalists and younger fans than you would gain in demolition derby fans.

#7 freya

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:22

I thought NASCAR worked a bit like that. Drivers working together for the tow and then during collisions revenge often being taken in the next race.


Can hardly compare NASCAR tanks with F1 cars. Also, can hardly compare the average nascar fan with f1 fans.

#8 Myrvold

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:32

People will die in the end. Not good.

#9 primer

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:36

The driver's championship would run a lot closer, that's for sure. If one driver was running away with it one of the rivals (or other team's driver) would get frustrated and take them out in an 'accident'. So no driver would have a lead as large as Vettel has right now. It would also be very entertaining, we would have so much to discuss and speculate upon. The 'drama' would remain confined between drivers and no one would have to wait for post-race FIA verdicts.

#10 RSNS

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 02:24

Just think about what happened with a no-rule (no regulation) economy and transpose it to F1. It would be utter chaos.

#11 BigCHrome

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:16

The defendant can do it now anyway.

#12 gm914

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:19

HRT would finish in the points....no thanks.


#13 pingu666

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:38

actully the last race there was no revenge attacks or any real contact at all i think :o, in nascar

#14 Black Widow

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 05:39

I'm just wondering what effect it would have. Would it create total chaos during the season or would Adam Smith and caution prevail when a driver knew that taking another driver out would mean repercussions in the next race?

So what do you say? Strict stewarding on track or law of the jungle?


Lewis....

Is that you???

:rotfl:


#15 CatharticF1

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:40

I'm just wondering what effect it would have. Would it create total chaos during the season or would Adam Smith and caution prevail when a driver knew that taking another driver out would mean repercussions in the next race?

So what do you say? Strict stewarding on track or law of the jungle?


What would it be like if there were no points, starting position or technical and sporting regulations?
What would bulletin boards be like if people could post any old drivel which was patently ridiculous before the first reply came in?

Much like this thread I suppose. Pointless.

:confused:

#16 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 06:42

Very little would change, because you'd damage your own car in the process.

#17 Stormsky68

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:23

Its called banger racing

#18 blackonyx4

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 14:57

Can hardly compare NASCAR tanks with F1 cars. Also, can hardly compare the average nascar fan with f1 fans.


Of course you cant.

The most civilized threads on this board are NASCAR ones.

#19 Andrew Hope

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 14:59

Also, can hardly compare the average nascar fan with f1 fans.


LOL.

Half of every F1 thread on here is whiny fanboy bitching embarrassing for all parties involved. Every Nascar race thread on here is pure class.

So I guess you're right, you really can't compare Nascar fans with F1 fans.

Edited by andrew., 14 June 2011 - 15:00.


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#20 noikeee

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 19:28

Very little would change, because you'd damage your own car in the process.


That may be true, but lots would change. First you'd be able to get away with lots more intimidation - potentially highly dangerous stuff. Second, defending a position would be much easier, just zig-zag through the whole track. Third, there's still situations you'd want to knock out your opponent and don't mind you get a DNF - just ask Michael Schumacher about his 1990s shenanigans with Hill and Villeneuve. And finally, team orders would get ridiculous, if you're leading a race or a championship you really wouldn't want to come across the team-mate of the guy that's in 2nd place. :D

#21 freya

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 20:26

LOL.

Half of every F1 thread on here is whiny fanboy bitching embarrassing for all parties involved. Every Nascar race thread on here is pure class.

So I guess you're right, you really can't compare Nascar fans with F1 fans.



I don't know where you got the idea that I looked down on either groups. I merely say that they are used to different kind of racing which is the truth so "LOL" less, you "pure class" fan.

#22 karlth

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 10:13

Interesting news item, especially Stewart's comments:

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/92707

"A number of drivers ended up feuding following the first road-course race of the Sprint Cup series season as NASCAR continued being true to its policy of letting drivers police themselves on the track."



#23 One

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 10:53

And Drivers letting act like a real thief! :drunk:

#24 T-Mobile

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:15

Part of what I like in GP racing is that you can enjoy races without all that jazz. I'll take Canada over Talladega, please.

Edited by T-Mobile, 28 June 2011 - 15:15.


#25 Andrew Hope

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:30

Breaking news - F1 fans don't like Nascar.

#26 Hippo

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:36

The defendant can do it now anyway.

This. We can see defendants chopping into their rivals pretty often. Funnily this is normal in F1 whereas it is something Nascar condemns.

#27 King Six

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 15:45

This. We can see defendants chopping into their rivals pretty often. Funnily this is normal in F1 whereas it is something Nascar condemns.

I haven't seen much if any good defending in F1 this season. Most of the time the driver gives it up pretty easily, or they don't see that they're being overtaken and drive into the attacking driver (and get him a penalty in the process). That's been the story of the 2011 season so far...

I think the rules are abit too much in F1, every season they keep on clamping down on it.

The drivers have such little visibility nowadays too, tiny mirrors, the high walls around the cockpit (since 2008), v-noses, HANS, sitting so low in the car, the helmets even. They are the main culprits as to why the driving style is so different. Not that there's much you can do about that as it's there for very good safety reasons...

Awareness makes such a big difference, but in F1 there's hardly any of it. It itself is a safety issue, but they get around it by having all these rules about driving. Which just lowers the competitiveness of it all really.

Edited by King Six, 28 June 2011 - 15:45.


#28 Andrew Hope

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:30

Some might say a few of those safety features aren't so safe after all, since they restrict vision so much. Wearing knee and elbow pads on your skateboard helps keep you safe a bit better when you fall, but make you five times as likely to fall in the first place.

#29 ArnageWRC

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:32

It would be like the BTCC........

#30 4MEN

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:41

It's kind of an art to take out another driver without damaging your car. Button on Alonso in Canada is a pretty example. As insane as it may sound, I love the idea... but then there's those open wheels... and cars can fly but can't land properly.

Edited by 4MEN, 28 June 2011 - 21:50.


#31 manmower

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 21:46

Some might say a few of those safety features aren't so safe after all, since they restrict vision so much. Wearing knee and elbow pads on your skateboard helps keep you safe a bit better when you fall, but make you five times as likely to fall in the first place.

You must have tried on some real shitty pads.

#32 Hippo

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:14

I haven't seen much if any good defending in F1 this season. Most of the time the driver gives it up pretty easily, or they don't see that they're being overtaken and drive into the attacking driver (and get him a penalty in the process). That's been the story of the 2011 season so far...

I think the rules are abit too much in F1, every season they keep on clamping down on it.

The drivers have such little visibility nowadays too, tiny mirrors, the high walls around the cockpit (since 2008), v-noses, HANS, sitting so low in the car, the helmets even. They are the main culprits as to why the driving style is so different. Not that there's much you can do about that as it's there for very good safety reasons...

Awareness makes such a big difference, but in F1 there's hardly any of it. It itself is a safety issue, but they get around it by having all these rules about driving. Which just lowers the competitiveness of it all really.

Oh I think they can see pretty much in their mirrors if they want to. Did you see how Schumacher and Hamilton raced each other in Monaco? Especially Schumacher was defending very well. And then Hamilton managed to get on Schumacher's inside after several laps of trying. Schumacher had no problem seeing it and left the space to avoid a crash. And so did Hamilton at the turn's exit. That was how racing is supposed to be.

And then you saw in the same race how drivers like Maldonado and Massa simply drove into their attackers. With an attitude like that overtaking is impossible. I refuse to believe that they didn't see their attacker attacking. If Schumacher can see it so can they. It was poor driving by Maldonado and Massa but the guy they crashed into got the penalty both times. That is modern F1. It leaves a sour taste...

#33 scheivlak

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 22:28

I haven't seen much if any good defending in F1 this season.

Defending is a lot more difficult this year than before.
But I've seen two examples of excellent defending: Vettel vs. Hamilton in the later stages of the Spanish GP and Vettel vs. Alonso in the later stages of the Monaco GP.
Kobayashi also held on well for quite some time vs. Massa at the Canadian GP.

#34 Bloggsworth

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Posted 26 June 2012 - 21:06

It would become dodgems and played out in a fairground - Next question...

#35 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:08

Posts deleted - discuss the topic, not each other or the validity of the thread.

This is not a thread to discuss specific drivers or incidents!

#36 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:16

I'm just wondering what effect it would have. Would it create total chaos during the season or would Adam Smith and caution prevail when a driver knew that taking another driver out would mean repercussions in the next race?

So what do you say? Strict stewarding on track or law of the jungle?

It's essentially allowed in BTCC and NASCAR. Usually (friendly mr. Plato's special assistance induced...;) ) slides in the btcc can be saved due to the fwd, while nascar moves can be paid back later in the race or at a different venue. Drive through penalties are rarely seen for contact in either.

In f1 I don't think they would regardless because it is more likely they will break their own f1 car.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 June 2012 - 06:18.


#37 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 06:20

Breaking news - F1 fans don't like Nascar.

They should see that nascar is the greatest.... it has by far the highest level of circuit racing competition in the US and that is the most important thing... all the best race drivers and engineers in the US compete in nascar for the most part, just like with F1 in europe. Must be shocking for the impartial fans of both to see extreme attitudes either way. :(

Imagine if all the cricket pitches in India were converted to diamonds, and all the diamonds in the US were converted to cricket pitches over night by an evil overlord of some form (e.g., bernie ecclestone). There would be an uproar. Culture is a very strange thing.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 27 June 2012 - 06:23.


#38 Bloggsworth

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 07:36

Breaking news - F1 fans don't like Nascar.


Include me out of that generalisation. I have been watching F1 since 1957 and watch Nascar fairly often...

#39 ViMaMo

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 11:40

You already have demolition derby.

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#40 Dmitriy_Guller

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 13:11

It wouldn't change much. There may be an initial flare-up in on-track violence, but soon enough drivers will realize that any wrong-doing will result in a payback, and in the end they would be worse off than before they started. How many times has a driver been intentionally wrecked in NASCAR this year?

In fact, it may lead to cleaner racing. If you don't have legalized paybacks, then drivers can drive as dirty as stewards will allow them, which can be pretty dirty. On the other hand, if you can retaliate, then crap like what Rosberg pulled a couple of races ago would be quickly corrected with a shunt into the wall.

Edited by Dmitriy_Guller, 27 June 2012 - 13:13.


#41 Red17

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 16:58

Very little would change, because you'd damage your own car in the process.

And these cars also happen to be very expensive.

Personally, I prefer that drivers have free reign to race each other. Close racing does have the higher probability of incidents and accidents, but it also increases the «show» and it's generally better accepted for fans to overtake on the track.
That does not mean free pass to ram each other. In the heat of the battle a driver can miss a brake, but trying to conceal a deliberate punt is not racing. That said I would rather have a close race rather than some random driver rocketing away.

The real problem is kneejerking from zealot fans. Angry people will always make more noise than happy people. It's no wonder the rules keep changing, one weekend voicing fans call for close racing, next weekend they call for banning of contact, well, what the heck is the driver ahead supposed to do then? Ban defending? Permit overtake only in «safe areas»? Replace the tarmacked tracks with slotcar tracks?

Let the drivers driver, the stewarts and the FIA have the job of looking at the behaviour.

#42 jj2728

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 18:10

This has to be the dumbest thread ever conceived.

#43 PNSD

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 18:19

This has to be the dumbest thread ever conceived.


Indeed.

Though we should at least make it exciting and question whether or not guns should be allowed?

Personally I think Mclaren would come up with the most innovative gun solution, whilst RedBull's would be constantly questioned for legality. Mercedes's would get stuck in the constant fire mode ala DRS and Lotus's would jam up in the cooler conditions.

Button would probably be constantly changing his sight as well moaning of aim.

Ferrari would start with a pea-shooter but eventually build up to an RPG.

Edited by PNSD, 27 June 2012 - 18:19.


#44 Aieljose

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 20:10

Ask Hamilton....trolololololol

#45 pdac

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 20:20

Personally,I'dprefer to see the alternative - instant and harsh penalties. I'd like to see a lot more disqualifications. Having two or three cars hauled out of the race each time would have a quite interesting effect on driving styles as time went on, I think.

#46 Aieljose

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 20:25

Personally,I'dprefer to see the alternative - instant and harsh penalties. I'd like to see a lot more disqualifications. Having two or three cars hauled out of the race each time would have a quite interesting effect on driving styles as time went on, I think.

We would have a lot of drivers racing timidly of fear of disqualification. This is not a good formula either for racing or from an entertainment pov imo. If anything there should be less penalties.

#47 pdac

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Posted 27 June 2012 - 20:35

We would have a lot of drivers racing timidly of fear of disqualification. This is not a good formula either for racing or from an entertainment pov imo. If anything there should be less penalties.

You're right, of course. I just wanted to bring up the alternative implied in the original post.