DRS - Keep it or bin it? You choose
#1
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:24
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#2
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:25
#3
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:28
If we don't get good races in at least 4 of those races, then maybe, yes, DRS has a good effect ; however, I would still believe it is currently slightly overpowered/overused, and I certainly wouldn't go back to the double usage like in Canada.
#4
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:35
#5
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:40
Yes, I do actually share your lack of enthusiasm about DRS threads. Hence the need to get a quick snapshot poll of how fans are feeling about it (rather than endless analysis and bickering!). But I do realise we'll get endless analysis and bickering anyway.Huzzah a DRS thread. We need one of these. Keep it, But get it right for gods sake.
#6
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:56
Straight line overtaking moves are just as boring as no overtaking...
The DRS should only help getting closer, I think it's already too much if they manage to get alongside each other, it's just too big of an unfair advantage...
There was a reason WHY button ended up behind webber and schumacher, he had a bad race, made 3 mistakes and 6 pitstops.
he deserved to end up behind those 2 slower cars with such a performence, and the only way he could've redeemed himself was by making some awesome overtaking moves.
wich we didnt see as all he had to do was push a button.
he got a Race victory gifted, he didnt earn it.
Im not saying that he could not have done it anyway, maybe he could, maybe not, we will never know... the DRS robbed us.
the safety car and the DRS are tools that essentially erase mistakes.
and that's why I think they should either remove it or make 100% sure that it works more like in australia/monaco, where it didnt necessarily produced more overtaking, but using it was surely not a disadvantage either...
Edited by beute, 15 June 2011 - 11:59.
#7
Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:56
#8
Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:02
#9
Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:14
AND the rules need tweaking still, of course. If you have two drs zones, and the driver gets past on the first one, then it is a farce that the same driver can use drs to pull away. what should if anything, happen is that if you have two drs zones the driver behind gets two chances to get ahead, but if he does get ahead in the first zone then the chance then passes to the driver he has just passed.
Maybe change the drs so that if can only be employed if one car has been stuck behind another car for more than three laps say. Because this is exactly the reasoning for implementing it in the first place. So the banzai drivers can go for it anywhere on the track to quickly get past slower cars without drs, or the sluggers such as Button can chose to wait for three laps before sailing past, losing all that tiem in the meantime.
#10
Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:15
#11
Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:25
#12
Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:38
Bin it. What's exciting about overtaking in a straight line?
Oval racing then?
-------------------
Artificial overtaking.
Edited by ViMaMo, 15 June 2011 - 12:39.
#13
Posted 15 June 2011 - 12:42
Oval racing then?
-------------------
Artificial overtaking.
Been dying to use it
#14
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:02
Oh and scrap double DRS zones.
#15
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:16
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
#16
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:18
I think the sarcasm-meter just blew up.Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
#17
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:26
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
That's very funny, but you seem to have already forgotten the enormous amount of whining from fans when overtaking was nigh on impossible. DRS, if calibrated wrongly as in Canada, is a thoroughly bad idea, but when used properly - just enough to help a faster car get level - then I consider it less irksome than watching 24 cars go around a track for 70 laps knowing full well there's not a cat's chance in hell of overtaking. The real solution is, of course, to deeply address current cars aero designs, but until that happens I'd rather have a button than a procession.
#18
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:30
#19
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:30
I'd just personally try to make the zones a little less effective than Turkey/Canada. 2 large zones, in tracks where overtaking isn't as difficult to begin with, is a little too much for my taste. But I'd rather have that than no DRS at all.
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#20
Posted 15 June 2011 - 13:32
I don't know what your idea about a cat's chance in hell is...but we had overtaking before DRS.then I consider it less irksome than watching 24 cars go around a track for 70 laps knowing full well there's not a cat's chance in hell of overtaking.
THis year also most overtaking was done due to huge difference in tyres.
#21
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:06
That's the irony though, we've suddenly got two overtaking aids at once, after years where several tracks made it extremely difficult, even if the car behind was a second or more faster. Of course 'we had' overtaking, but I'm sure the vast majority of people will say that the combination of car design and certain tracks made it too rare and difficult in recent years.I don't know what your idea about a cat's chance in hell is...but we had overtaking before DRS.
THis year also most overtaking was done due to huge difference in tyres.
#22
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:11
#23
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:13
#24
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:15
It is a hack workaround for a more serious problem. If it is kept they will never bother to do a proper fix.It's the better of two evils, but HAS to be calibrated right for each track; Canada was an absolute farce.
#25
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:16
#26
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:25
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
Arnoux - Villeneuve would have been incredible.
I also get a great buzz when I see the rear flap opening and closing. Incredible.
#27
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:26
DRS is an abomination. It was originally a quick fix until 2013 but now looks like a permanent fixture.
#28
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:28
Why bin it????
Didnt you guys see how awesome it was the way Jensons finger moved to the knob, it was so exciting to see his finger moving the overtaking button down. I was on the edge of my seat and couldnt believe how fantastic he let his finger move the button down.
This button-pressing is much more exciting then the old fighting and outbraking and wheel by wheel racing.
Its just a shame we didnt have overtaking buttons in the last decades of racing. How cool it would have been if Gilles Villeneuve or Ayrton Senna wouldnt have to show there driving skills to overtake, but there awesome movements of there fingers pressing a button down.
#29
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:32
#30
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:36
Again I'll say it.
DRS is an abomination. It was originally a quick fix until 2013 but now looks like a permanent fixture.
I think you have found your sig mate!
#31
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:38
I would counter that by saying we should scrap the races with tracks that consistently produce boring races.. It seems that each year there are more candidates for running a GP.. Perhaps we should start going to different venues instead of perpetually visiting what we already know are boring tracks...Keep it, BUT on some tracks only. For instance - Hungaroring, Valencia, Barcelona, Monaco etc. anywhere where it will actually help drivers get in better position to overtake but not make that pass easy. On some tracks it's needless like for instance Canada, Turkey, Spa etc. If it must be used on those tracks, then it should be put on a place where it's not the most obvious place for overtaking, sort of like it was done in Melbourne. And none of this Double DRS zone poppycock, at least until you have 2 detection zones.
Once again I keep coming back to: Why introduce a gimmick that only serves to mask the real issue?!
#32
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:41
I stated my objections to the principle before it was introduced and nothing I have seen has changed my mind.
#33
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:52
Well sadly what can we do, many say bin it, but we are just a forum not an FIA contingent lol
#34
Posted 15 June 2011 - 14:55
#35
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:13
No! DRS shall not help getting closer. It shall only make it possible for a faster car to overtake a slower one.The DRS should only help getting closer
Given this purpose it's simply stupid to allow its usage in qualifying. If they had to qualify without DRS they'd have to go for a different setup with less downforce. On a track like Montreal that would have resulted in a less effective DRS system, because the car infront would have had higher top speed and the bonus of the DRS would have been smaller. And that in turn would have reduced the ridiculous speed advantage when applying DRS.
The DRS system is good and has to stay. But they need to change the way it can be used to decrease lap times especially in qualifying.
#36
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:13
#37
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:15
No! DRS shall not help getting closer. It shall only make it possible for a faster car to overtake a slower one.
Given this purpose it's simply stupid to allow its usage in qualifying. If they had to qualify without DRS they'd have to go for a different setup with less downforce. On a track like Montreal that would have resulted in a less effective DRS system, because the car infront would have had higher top speed and the bonus of the DRS would have been smaller. And that in turn would have reduced the ridiculous speed advantage when applying DRS.
The DRS system is good and has to stay. But they need to change the way it can be used to decrease lap times especially in qualifying.
If it isn't allowed in qual, then the rev limit, allied with gearing would mean it would be next to useless in the race.
#38
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:17
Where's the thread to keep or bin all the F1 fans that are judging after seven races something that takes more than seven races to fine-tune and get right?
It's probably in the same place as the one for F1 fans who are missing the point. To me it's not about fine-tuning DRS, it is that it is inherently unfair. No amount of tuning the system will make it fair. Unless all drivers can use it when they wish, which defeats the purpose, the system will remain unfair.
#39
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:28
That's nice in principle, but 20, 30, 40, 50 ... years ago the only thing stopping a faster car/driver ovetaking a slower one was driver talent; the way aero has evolved, however, has profoundly changed that fundamental aspect of the sport. Something was/is needed to redress the problem, and DRS is not the worst solution imaginable IF it is applied properly; what we saw in Canada was an aboration that I (as an MS fan) hated as much as you, Ali or Dunder.It's probably in the same place as the one for F1 fans who are missing the point. To me it's not about fine-tuning DRS, it is that it is inherently unfair. No amount of tuning the system will make it fair. Unless all drivers can use it when they wish, which defeats the purpose, the system will remain unfair.
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#40
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:40
That's nice in principle, but 20, 30, 40, 50 ... years ago the only thing stopping a faster car/driver ovetaking a slower one was driver talent; the way aero has evolved, however, has profoundly changed that fundamental aspect of the sport.
Aero is not the only thing that has changed but is the bandwagon that is being jumped upon to the exclusion of everything else. There are other things that could be looked at, but won't be because it isn't considered politically expedient. Semi-automatic double-clutch seamless shift gearboxes make it impossible to miss a gear, large carbon brakes combined with aero make for very short, but consistent, braking distances, pit radio where drivers can be called in almost at the last corner if a team of specialists armed with supercomputers deem it optimal etc.
Aero may cause some, or even the majority, of the current perceived problems, but it is not solely responsible for the type of racing we have had for the last 10 or so years.
#41
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:48
Yeah well, no. There is no reason not to consider this when setting up the car. On some tracks like Barcelona people have to consider this too because of changing wind directions. That's not a DRS issue but a set up issue. Besides, it would still reduce drag and thus allow you to hit the rev limiter earlier even if you ignore this when setting up the car. So you would still be reaching top speed earlier and thus get at least a slightly better chance at overtaking.If it isn't allowed in qual, then the rev limit, allied with gearing would mean it would be next to useless in the race.
Edited by Hippo, 15 June 2011 - 15:49.
#42
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:49
large carbon brakes combined with aero make for very short,
It's the grip of the tyres which determine braking distance, not the material of the disk.
Zanardi ran with steel disks at Spa 99 and ran similar lap times to Ralf Schumacher who was using carbon disks.
Tyres slow the car down. Disks slow the wheels rotation down. Tyres are the factor which are on the edge.
#43
Posted 15 June 2011 - 15:57
Well, partly true, but with todays downforce I doubt you can lock the wheels even with carbon disk when you brake at 300 kmh. So the disks do indeed shorter the distance. All in all they shorten the average distance since steel brakes will show bigger variations over the race.It's the grip of the tyres which determine braking distance, not the material of the disk.
Zanardi ran with steel disks at Spa 99 and ran similar lap times to Ralf Schumacher who was using carbon disks.
Tyres slow the car down. Disks slow the wheels rotation down. Tyres are the factor which are on the edge.
#44
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:02
It's the grip of the tyres which determine braking distance, not the material of the disk.
Tyres slow the car down. Disks slow the wheels rotation down. Tyres are the factor which are on the edge.
Granted, but the lower unsprung weight, wear rate, and resistance to fade are of importance over a race distance.
I'm not really suggesting a return to steel brakes, but pointing out that modern F1 cars are reliable, consistent, and operate to increasingly fine margins which are designed to make it easier for drivers to avoid mistakes which makes it, in turn, harder for other drivers to benefit from a mistake.
#45
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:19
#46
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:24
Bin it, with the caveat that the underfloor aero regs are reinstated.
pretty much this
i voted keep it, but only while they do nothing to increase braking distances and reduce aero impact on the following car.
Edited by corf, 15 June 2011 - 16:24.
#47
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:32
#48
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:39
Since when is it a god given right for a faster car to overtake a slower one? If we are only interested in outright speed, then rather than a race we should have extended qualifying with only one car on track at a time..No! DRS shall not help getting closer. It shall only make it possible for a faster car to overtake a slower one.
#49
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:44
It shouldn't be a 'god given right', but it should be reasonably possible.Since when is it a god given right for a faster car to overtake a slower one? If we are only interested in outright speed, then rather than a race we should have extended qualifying with only one car on track at a time..
#50
Posted 15 June 2011 - 16:45
at the same time it should be reasonably possible to defend your position...which isn't at the momentIt shouldn't be a 'god given right', but it should be reasonably possible.