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Red flag rules confusion


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#1 BillBald

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 01:35

Have the red flag race suspension rules changed since last year?

In Korea 2010, Merc changed to wet setup on both cars while the race was suspended, with impressive results.

In Canada 2011, Williams were apparently not allowed to do this.

Does anyone understand what this is about?





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#2 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 01:38

The rules, as written, have not changed.

There are so many unpublished directives though that is hard to tell. According to the rules as they are written, Williams should have been able to change their suspension components.

#3 RockyRaccoon68

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 01:46

I forgot about this, thanks for asking!

I had been wondering about it too because I remembered Merc changing their setup, from what Sam Michael was saying it seemed he disagreed with Charlie Whiting but decided it wasn't the time or place to argue about it.

#4 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:31

Changing setup or changing parts? There's a difference.

#5 wingwalker

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:27

Oh right, I've forgotten about it too. From what I recall Rubens wanted to have softer suspension at the front, but Charlie said parts can be changed for the ones with same specification. Whether the corrections fall under 'same specifications' or not, I have no idea, but I was surprised about as my understanding was that parc ferme ends when the lights go green and after that teams can do whatever they want as long cars stay legal, red flag just allows them to do it without ruining the race.

#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:33

Well that depends.

Soft front suspension = current dampers, adjusted

or

Soft front suspension = new damper

#7 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:12

Well that depends.

Soft front suspension = current dampers, adjusted

or

Soft front suspension = new damper


Williams wanted to change (as in fit a new) anti-roll bar.
Whiting told them that they could but only if it was the same specification.




#8 Hairpin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:32

Williams wanted to change (as in fit a new) anti-roll bar.
Whiting told them that they could but only if it was the same specification.

According to the rules you can not do much.
http://www.formula1....s/8685/fia.html

- if the FIA technical delegate is satisfied that changes in climatic conditions necessitate alterations to the specification of a car, changes may be made to the air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts. These changes may be made at any time after the message “CHANGE IN CLIMATIC CONDITIONS” is shown on the timing monitors, from this point the choice of brake cooling and radiator ducts is free and pitot tubes may be covered or uncovered, subject always to compliance with the relevant Technical Regulations.
- bodywork (excluding radiators) may be removed and / or cleaned ;
- cosmetic changes may be made to the bodywork and tape may be added ;
- any part of the car may be cleaned ;
- on board cameras, marshalling system components, timing transponders and any associated equipment may be removed, refitted or checked ;
- any work required by the FIA technical delegate ;
- changes to improve the driver's comfort. In this context anything other than the adjustment of mirrors, seat belts and pedals may only be carried out with the specific permission of the FIA technical delegate. The addition or removal of padding (or similar material) is also permitted but may only be carried out under supervision and, if required by the FIA technical delegate, must be removed before the post-race weighing procedure.
- drinking fluid for the driver may be added at any time, however, the capacity of the container for any such fluid must not exceed 1.5 litres ;
- repair of genuine accident damage ;
- any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car.


#9 wingwalker

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:45

But does it actually covers the race?

34.4 Five hours before the start of the formation lap the seals and covers may be removed but the cars will remain under parc ferme conditions until the start of the race.


edit: of course it is possible parc ferme comes back on when the race is suspended.


edit: however, it does't seem so

[when the race is suspended]... cars may be worked on once they have stopped on the gridor entered the pits but any such work must not impede the resumption of the race ;

http://www.formula1....s/8690/fia.html

Edited by wingwalker, 16 June 2011 - 13:50.


#10 george1981

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:11

This came up at Monaco as well. When the red flag and restart was announced, everyone was wondering if drivers could change tyres, Ted Kravitz on the BBC said that the teams were free to change whatever they liked including set ups etc. I'm sure I saw the Mercedes cars having their suspension worked on during the red flag at Canada.

#11 King Six

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:14

They were all probably making their cars even more set up for the dry once they clocked on that there'll be no racing anymore until there's a dry line. I think Canada was the final nail in the coffin for wet racing.

#12 wingwalker

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:19

Ted Kravitz on the BBC said that the teams were free to change whatever they liked including set ups etc. I




That was my understanding as well, parc ferme ends when the lights go green on Sunday. I vaguely recall some team having a problems with the car, putting it in the garage and then letting it out with like 10 laps down or whatever but with new parts just to test them.

#13 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:25

That's not under a red flag though.

#14 wingwalker

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:32

Yes, that's why I was checking red flag rules, but I don't see anything about parc ferme or any other rules preventing teams from working on the cars. Seems like Sam Micheal got it right.

#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:15

The restriction isn't on working on the cars, but what kind of work you can do. You're allowed to change your wing angles and whatever, I don't think you're allowed to fit a different wing. A new wing, ie Lewis at Monaco, but I think what the FIA were stopping was Williams changing the specification of their car.

#16 BillBald

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:18

That was my understanding as well, parc ferme ends when the lights go green on Sunday. I vaguely recall some team having a problems with the car, putting it in the garage and then letting it out with like 10 laps down or whatever but with new parts just to test them.


Webber in Japan 09 ? Didn't they fit an experimental wing during the race?





#17 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 15:22

According to the rules you can not do much.
http://www.formula1....s/8685/fia.html

- if the FIA technical delegate is satisfied that changes in climatic conditions necessitate alterations to the specification of a car, changes may be made to the air ducts around the front and rear brakes and radiator ducts. These changes may be made at any time after the message “CHANGE IN CLIMATIC CONDITIONS” is shown on the timing monitors, from this point the choice of brake cooling and radiator ducts is free and pitot tubes may be covered or uncovered, subject always to compliance with the relevant Technical Regulations.
- bodywork (excluding radiators) may be removed and / or cleaned ;
- cosmetic changes may be made to the bodywork and tape may be added ;
- any part of the car may be cleaned ;
- on board cameras, marshalling system components, timing transponders and any associated equipment may be removed, refitted or checked ;
- any work required by the FIA technical delegate ;
- changes to improve the driver's comfort. In this context anything other than the adjustment of mirrors, seat belts and pedals may only be carried out with the specific permission of the FIA technical delegate. The addition or removal of padding (or similar material) is also permitted but may only be carried out under supervision and, if required by the FIA technical delegate, must be removed before the post-race weighing procedure.
- drinking fluid for the driver may be added at any time, however, the capacity of the container for any such fluid must not exceed 1.5 litres ;
- repair of genuine accident damage ;
- any parts which are removed from the car in order to carry out any work specifically permitted above, or any parts removed to carry out essential safety checks, must remain close to it and, at all times, be visible to the scrutineer assigned to the relevant car.


That is the regulation covering what can be done before the race (and it is wet).

Once the race starts, they are no longer under parc ferme restrictions.

Edited by Dunder, 16 June 2011 - 15:22.


#18 ryan86

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 20:17

Why can't drivers drink bottles not exceed 1.5litres? Seems slightly uneccasary IMO.

#19 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 20:51

Why can't drivers drink bottles not exceed 1.5litres? Seems slightly uneccasary IMO.


Drinks on board are included within the minimum weight for the car so there does have to be a maximum.
Bear in mind that the drivers will drink 2 or 3 litres prior to the race, so I would guess that 1.5 litres is deemed (by them) to be enough.


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#20 Hairpin

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 21:10

Drinks on board are included within the minimum weight for the car so there does have to be a maximum.
Bear in mind that the drivers will drink 2 or 3 litres prior to the race, so I would guess that 1.5 litres is deemed (by them) to be enough.

Can they have a second bottle?

#21 Disgrace

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 00:40

Williams made the mistake of asking Charlie Whiting, the same Charlie Whiting who told McLaren that Hamilton had done nothing wrong after Spa 08, the same Charlie Whiting who did not offer an opinion at to whether Button had committed a penalty offence back in Australia before he got it, the same Charlie Whiting who felt it better to keep the safety car out after the red flag up until the point that the track was ready for inters.

Why do these teams keep making the same mistake? Stop asking this incompetent man for his opinion! Take an initiative and deal with the stewards afterwards! If anyone in F1 displays a total lack of initiative, it is Charlie Whiting.

Edited by Disgrace, 17 June 2011 - 00:43.


#22 Dunder

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 00:45

Can they have a second bottle?


No.


#23 KinoNoNo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 00:51

Why do these teams keep making the same mistake? Stop asking this incompetent man for his opinion! Take an initiative and deal with the stewards afterwards! If anyone in F1 displays a total lack of initiative, it is Charlie Whiting.


To be honest it seems to me to be a reaction to the public uproar after Monaco.


#24 Disgrace

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:36

To be honest it seems to me to be a reaction to the public uproar after Monaco.


Which, if viewed objectively, was a one-off situation that itself came through an unusual set of circumstances not likely to be repeated. Changing tyres after a red flag-worthy crash is absolutely the right thing to do overall, who knows what debris those things have picked up. That is a genuine safety step that would be naive to overlook.

#25 Williams

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 01:47

Why can't drivers drink bottles not exceed 1.5litres? Seems slightly uneccasary IMO.


A maximum that was perhaps added because of the quickly banned sometime practice of adding gallons of water to a car, supposedly for "brake cooling", in the last pitstop.

#26 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:13

Woah, a post straight from the archives.


The drinks bottle isn't a bottle anyways, it's a pouch kind of like the fuel cell with a cable coming out of it into the driver's helmet. So you wouldn't really be able to replace it.