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TWG Meeting 16/06/2011 - Off Throttle EBD Use


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#1 Smitla321

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 10:57

Hello all,

The TWG are meeting in London today to discuss the off-throttle use of the EBD.

It could have intresting effects on the racing!

What are everyones views on this?

Hopefully updates will stream in through the course of the day!

Edited by Smitla321, 16 June 2011 - 11:02.


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#2 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:00

Hello all,

I think the TWG are meeting in London today to discuss the off-throttle use of the EBD.

It could have intresting effects on the racing!

What are everyones views on this?

Hopefully updates will stream in through the course of the day!

I think it can only be good for F1 as its likely red bull will be affected the most.

#3 Tsarwash

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:19

I heard that Ferrari and Renault are set to lose the most performance at the moment. But as it shall help bring the backmarkers forwards a bit, a ban could lead to some more interesting results.

#4 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:20

I think it can only be good for F1 as its likely red bull will be affected the most.

I dont think you would say that if Ferrari was in Red Bulls position atm.

There is no reason whatsoever to ban this midseason. For next season, ok. I can only see that this is another version of the stricter wing tests from last year. Trying to slow a competitor down that has done their homework because the others cant keep up. The excess fuel that this solution uses up is miniscule in comparison to everything else used to run this sport. Im so fed up with Charlie Whiting right now. Its time to go, chubby.


#5 DracoN

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:21

so who will win from that ban ? Sauber ?

#6 Andy865

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:35

Sauber and merc set to benefit.

Though knowing merc theyll go slower.

#7 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:36

I heard that Ferrari and Renault are set to lose the most performance at the moment. But as it shall help bring the backmarkers forwards a bit, a ban could lead to some more interesting results.


Heard from who?

Seems to me that the team with the best system are the ones who will most affected.

#8 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:39

I think it can only be good for F1 as its likely red bull will be affected the most.


How is it good for F1? If your saying that any team that produces a great car should be slowed down then they might as well decrease the rev limit for that team.

#9 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:40

Heard from who?

Seems to me that the team with the best system are the ones who will most affected.

aMuS said that ferrari and renault powered cars were gunna lose 8/10s of performance. But they are usually wrong so i wouldnt take much notice of that.

#10 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:42

How is it good for F1? If your saying that any team that produces a great car should be slowed down then they might as well decrease the rev limit for that team.

Would you rather see vettel run away with it or maybe have a close championship battle. They're not slowing down red bull deliberatly, the Fia feel that the teams are over-exploiting the use of the off throttle EBD.

#11 teejay

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:42

I think the teams will sook.. and it will still happen.

FIA have said from Silverstone its banned, deal with it.

#12 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:42

Sauber and merc set to benefit.

Though knowing merc theyll go slower.


Didn't Ross Brawn say that banning off throttle use will cost them between 0.5 and 1 sec?

#13 Andy865

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:43

I think he meant in terms of all teams. some could lose the former, some the latter.

#14 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:43

I think it can only be good for F1 as its likely red bull will be affected the most.


It is not good for F1 that the governing body arbitrarily changes its interpretation of the rules half way through the season.


#15 peroa

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:45

How is it good for F1? If your saying that any team that produces a great car should be slowed down then they might as well decrease the rev limit for that team.

IMHO it is good, mainly because the "mechanism" isn't under the control of the driver, but has a life of its own.


#16 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:45

aMuS said that ferrari and renault powered cars were gunna lose 8/10s of performance. But they are usually wrong so i wouldnt take much notice of that.


I'm taking a more simplistic view. It's an aero enhancement obtained via the engine they are trying to eliminate, so to me the engine used is irrelevant and it's the ones with best aero solution who will lose the most.

#17 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:46

Would you rather see vettel run away with it or maybe have a close championship battle. They're not slowing down red bull deliberatly, the Fia feel that the teams are over-exploiting the use of the off throttle EBD.


It would be quite amusing if the ban then resulted in another team getting pole and winning practically every race and running away with the championship instead of Red Bull... :lol:

Edited by krapmeister, 16 June 2011 - 11:47.


#18 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:47

IMHO it is good, mainly because the "mechanism" isn't under the control of the driver, but has a life of its own.


That doesn't answer the question as to why it's good for F1. I can't see how banning something mid-season to try and slow one team down is good.

#19 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:48

It would be quite amusing if the ban then resulted in another team getting pole and winning practically every race and running away with the championship instead of Red Bull... :lol:

Haha yeah but i cant quite see that happening :lol:

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#20 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:48

That doesn't answer the question as to why it's good for F1. I can't see how banning something mid-season to try and slow one team down is good.

It doesnt slow 1 team down it slows all the teams down but probably red bull in particular.

#21 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:49

Would you rather see vettel run away with it or maybe have a close championship battle. They're not slowing down red bull deliberatly, the Fia feel that the teams are over-exploiting the use of the off throttle EBD.


BS. This whole affair is purely to try and slow RB down. The racing has been close, but rather than hobble one team I'd rather see the others get their act together. Of course the FIA have made that difficult because of the testing ban.

#22 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:53

Would you rather see vettel run away with it or maybe have a close championship battle. They're not slowing down red bull deliberatly, the Fia feel that the teams are over-exploiting the use of the off throttle EBD.


It is not a question of what you would rather see.
You don't tell Barcelona that they have to substitute Leo Messi if they are leading 3-0 at half-time.

The FIA was well aware that teams were retarding the ignition last year and they were aware in winter testing that teams had come up with new exhaust configurations to exploit the EBD. To seek to introduce a new interpretation of reg. 3.15 after 4 races stinks of 'meddling in the championships'. The interpretation that the FIA chosen doesn't even stand up to scrutiny, if you say that using exhaust gases for aerodynamic benefit it is illegal then the whole concept of the EBD is illegal, not just gases produced when off-throttle.

#23 Spa95

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:53

aMuS said that ferrari and renault powered cars were gunna lose 8/10s of performance. But they are usually wrong so i wouldnt take much notice of that.

They didn't report that. Yet another case of shoddy translations of an AMuS article. :rolleyes:

Btw, AMuS already reported the Silverstone ban weeks ago before any one else - So much for "usually wrong" :rolleyes:

Edited by Spa95, 16 June 2011 - 11:55.


#24 Smitla321

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:55

http://en.espnf1.com...tml?CMP=OTC-RSS

Martin Whitmarsh thinks RB could loose half a second in Quali Trim............Thoughts?

Edited by Smitla321, 16 June 2011 - 11:59.


#25 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 11:57

http://en.espnf1.com...tml?CMP=OTC-RSS

Martin Whitmarsh thinks RB could loose half a secong in Quali Trim............Thoughts?

Wouldnt suprise me at all.

#26 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:01

Well let's face it, Whitmarsh is hoping that RBR lose half a second...

#27 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:03

Well let's face it, Whitmarsh is hoping that RBR lose half a second...


Every team is.

#28 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:05

Every team is.


TBH I don't think the likes of Lotus, Virgin and HRT are bothered if RBR lose half a second of pace...

#29 stanga

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:07

http://en.espnf1.com...tml?CMP=OTC-RSS

Martin Whitmarsh thinks RB could loose half a secong in Quali Trim............Thoughts?


I'll believe it when I see it.

For me, the whole off throttle engine usage should have been sorted out before now. A good piece of technical development, but steps over a line for me.


#30 undersquare

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:08

How are they going to police it, if it's just maps, any ideas?

#31 Smitla321

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:09

Well let's face it, Whitmarsh is hoping that RBR lose half a second...



You never know mate! You never know.........

This change has the potential of really turning the championship upside down.

#32 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:09

How are they going to police it, if it's just maps, any ideas?


Via the standard ecu?

#33 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:10

TBH I don't think the likes of Lotus, Virgin and HRT are bothered if RBR lose half a second of pace...


Even they want to be half a second closer to the pace.

#34 Clatter

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:11

I'll believe it when I see it.

For me, the whole off throttle engine usage should have been sorted out before now. A good piece of technical development, but steps over a line for me.


What line would that be?

#35 ferrarijon123

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:13

TBH I don't think the likes of Lotus, Virgin and HRT are bothered if RBR lose half a second of pace...

It might make the difference of them making the 107% rule

#36 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:15

Even they want to be half a second closer to the pace.


It might make the difference of them making the 107% rule


Point taken.

Edited by krapmeister, 16 June 2011 - 12:16.


#37 Nonesuch

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:16

Changing the (interpretation of the) rules to such an extent as is being suggested during a season is something I'd rather not see, and if it's done specifically to negate the strong points of a certain team it's even worse. If the teams agree to get rid of the EBD, just do it for next season.

That said though, at least they're not yet changing the point system, tyre rules, or qualifying format. Or all three. :p

#38 Owen

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:19

Qualifying might be worth watching now. :p

#39 sv401

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:28

That said though, at least they're not yet changing the point system, tyre rules, or qualifying format. Or all three. :p


As long as the Red Bull advantage is in qualifying only, there is a convenient tool to keep the championship exciting: DRS zones with arbitrary length and number of them :p


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#40 Tony Mandara

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:28

Why do people get confused between an "Exhaust Blown Diffuser" and "Off Throttle" blowing of the diffuser?? :confused:

The engine is being used to create downforce when it is not being operated by the driver.

#41 DracoN

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:30

yes but u lose alot more when u have EBD

#42 sv401

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:34

The engine is being used to create downforce when it is not being operated by the driver.


It also creates downforce when operated by the driver, though, and 3.15 does not make any distinction between driver operated and automatic "movable aero". If a driver uses throttle under braking to increase downforce, it should be, according to the FIA interpretation, illegal just like the driver operated F-ducts. The line that was drawn at the off-throttle engine maps is an arbitrarily chosen one, indeed.


#43 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:35

Why do people get confused between an "Exhaust Blown Diffuser" and "Off Throttle" blowing of the diffuser?? :confused:

The engine is being used to create downforce when it is not being operated by the driver.


Based on the responses so far in this thread, nobody has indicated that they are "confused".


#44 Smitla321

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 12:35

Why do people get confused between an "Exhaust Blown Diffuser" and "Off Throttle" blowing of the diffuser?? :confused:

The engine is being used to create downforce when it is not being operated by the driver.



Who is getting confused?

Regardless, I believe teams using a EBD will be hit the hardest with this change, due to the existing configuration of the exhaust packages. Especially Renault, who I believe have come forward and said that the ban will ruin their package.

Edited by Smitla321, 16 June 2011 - 12:37.


#45 Iridescent

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:23

It will effect pretty much everyone to a different extent, some more than others. And it would affect one-lap pace much more than race trim. If I were you I would not get hopes up on radical changes in terms of the pecking order.

What is more intriguing is the regulations in this area for 2012. The current FIA proposal is not really trending among the teams.

#46 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:27

It will effect pretty much everyone to a different extent, some more than others. And it would affect one-lap pace much more than race trim. If I were you I would not get hopes up on radical changes in terms of the pecking order.

What is more intriguing is the regulations in this area for 2012. The current FIA proposal is not really trending among the teams.


The FIA can force through the EBD ban for 2012, if they wish.


#47 Iridescent

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 13:56

The FIA can force through the EBD ban for 2012, if they wish.


The FIA can't just force it really, they should consult the F1 commission and working groups beforehand.
Technical regulations:
2.2 Amendments to the regulations : Changes to these regulations may only be made in accordance with the provisions of The 2009 Concorde Agreement.

Moreover, some may argue for postponement on the basis of this:
ISP
b) Technical design of the vehicle
(i) Changes to technical regulations or to Appendix J, adopted by the FIA, will be published no later than 30 June each year and come into effect no earlier than 1 January of the year following their publication, unless the FIA considers that the changes in question are likely to have a substantial impact on the technical design of the vehicle and/or the balance of performance between the cars, in which case they will come into effect no earlier than 1 January of the second year following their publication.

PS Their current proposal for 2012 creates some significant issues - packing of the exhaust, blowing near the cars centre line and close to the gearbox and hydraulics, long secondary pipes etc. Not to mention the exhaust flow in the wake of the front tyres of a following car..

Edited by Iridescent, 16 June 2011 - 14:02.


#48 Oho

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:04

Not like this is anything new from the FIA...

Just from the top of my head, significant mid season rule changes, oh sorry reinterpretations.....

1998, brakes
2000, engine management
2006, mass damper


#49 ed24f1

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:34

1998, brakes
2000, engine management
2006, mass damper


Also the 2003 Michelin farce.

#50 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 14:40

I remember when the michelin runners thought they smelt that different chemicals were used in the bridgestone tyres :lol: