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Mark Webber & the EBD


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#1 handel

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 21:33

I remember reading a really interesting BBC article a while back. It was penned by Brundle I'm sure and it made the observation that Mark Webber was much more comfortable with the first Red Bull EBD concept when they weren't able to blow on throttle-off. Vettel on the other hand liked this a lot less and came into his own when the engine maps were developed to make the EBD more or less permanent throughout a lap. Does anyone remember this article and perhaps have it bookmarked?

Don't mistake me, Vettel has done great things and is a super-talented driver. However, such is the nature of any sport when you're on top most fans want you to get knocked off to mix up the running order. I know I for one am really looking forward to seeing who out of the new drivers can work with the EBD changes, how it affects teams who had no EBD (Sauber) or a really immature one (Lotus?).

Put aside the reasons for the rule change/clarification - for 90% of us this will improve the season even further I think!

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#2 Dunder

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 21:53

I recall reading that same article.

I have to say, at the time, it appeared to me there might have been an element of 'backfitting'. Do we ourselves see any evidence that Vettel gets on better with the EBD than Webber does? For most of the second half of last year Webber was still very close in terms of pace with Vettel. There has been a clear difference this year but the tyres would appear to be a more convincing explanation for that.

Edited by Dunder, 16 June 2011 - 22:14.


#3 SK99

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 22:02

I don't recall Brundle talking about it, but I do recall this from Mark Hughes

Webber's consecutive victories over Vettel in Barcelona and Monaco were done on pummelling outright pace, not just track positioning or better strategy.

Vettel has maintained that those two events were compromised for him by a problem with his car's chassis and it is true that as soon as it was replaced, he was once again quicker than his team-mate.

Tiny hairline cracks were found that may or may not have contributed to Vettel's unease with that car and which chief technical officer Adrian Newey said "might have confused Seb's senses". But Vettel was back to his best when that car was replaced, repaired - and given to Webber.

But there was more to it than just Vettel's anxiety.

At this part of the season, Webber was genuinely able to get more from the car's exhaust-blown diffuser.

In its initial form, this component required a very specific driving technique to maximise the time on open throttle - which increased the downforce boost from the exhaust plume - and Webber was superb at it, consistently squeezing just that little bit more from it than his team-mate.

Vettel continued to be better at living with a little bit of entry oversteer, and that ability to adapt to the car moving around him was maybe partly why he was not as insistent on adapting his technique to a feature that calmed the rear end as soon as you got on the throttle.

From Valencia onwards however, the Renault engine was running software that retarded the ignition off-throttle, using the extra heat created to maintain exhaust flow to the diffuser even off-throttle.

Suddenly that downforce boost was there even during braking and Webber's specialised technique was no longer required. That improvement, in other words, took away a key Webber advantage.

The comparison then reverted to being about Webber's fantastic feel for braking grip and Vettel's supreme ease with any waywardness in the car in the initial turn-in part of the corner, particularly a slow corner where the downforce is bleeding off and the car becomes more lively.


http://news.bbc.co.u...one/9127533.stm

#4 KateLM

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 22:03

I remember the article, but I thought it was Mark Hughes who wrote it. I don't know how he would know, but I guess he would base it on what he heard from team sources. How reliable those sources are is of course another matter.

EDIT: Ah, SK99 found it. Still not sure where he got the information from then.

Edited by KateLM, 16 June 2011 - 22:05.


#5 krapmeister

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 23:25

Even if Mark somehow adapt's better to the removal of the off-throttle engine mapping, he still is hampered by the Pirelli's...

#6 slideways

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:05

Mark Hughes is usually full of shit when he talks about driver's techniques, but in this case he's talking about the rare flich throttle technique first used by Senna.

#7 Reinmuster

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:31

Perhaps Webber struggled with single-deck blown diffusor this season, if Mark Hughes are right about Webber could extract more from last year's DDD blown diffusor.

#8 krapmeister

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:44

Double decker diffuser's were banned for 2010 - so last year's diffuser's were not DDD's...

#9 DILLIGAF

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:01

Double decker diffuser's were banned for 2010 - so last year's diffuser's were not DDD's...


Yep.

It will be interesting to see if the gap between Seb & Mark tightens up a bit from Silverstone on.

It will be equally interesting to see if the RB7 loses it's qualifying advantage with the ban on exhaust overrun. I think that is the intention of the ban, to bring Red Bull back to the field a bit in qualifying & hopefully liven up the title race. Don't agree with mid-season changes but that's the FIA for you.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 17 June 2011 - 07:02.


#10 goldenboy

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:10

Mark Webber & the EBD - sounds like a 70's funk band :lol:

Electric Boogaloo Dancers?

#11 Zava

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:17

Double decker diffuser's were banned for 2010 - so last year's diffuser's were not DDD's...

yes they were.

#12 peroa

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:21

Double decker diffuser's were banned for 2010 - so last year's diffuser's were not DDD's...

They were banned for 2011.
Or how else do you explain Mac and renault running monster diffuses last year.

Edited by peroa, 17 June 2011 - 07:21.


#13 krapmeister

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:30

yes they were.


They were banned for 2011.
Or how else do you explain Mac and renault running monster diffuses last year.


Really? Oh well I stand corrected then...

#14 H2H

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 07:54

I recall reading that same article.

I have to say, at the time, it appeared to me there might have been an element of 'backfitting'. Do we ourselves see any evidence that Vettel gets on better with the EBD than Webber does? For most of the second half of last year Webber was still very close in terms of pace with Vettel. There has been a clear difference this year but the tyres would appear to be a more convincing explanation for that.


This was my feeling too, as the article had not a shred of evidence to back it up. And even if Webber comes closer to Vettel after the ban it might be part of his increasing grip of the Pirellis. So once again we won't know for sure.

Edited by H2H, 17 June 2011 - 07:54.


#15 goingthedistance

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:59

This was my feeling too, as the article had not a shred of evidence to back it up. And even if Webber comes closer to Vettel after the ban it might be part of his increasing grip of the Pirellis. So once again we won't know for sure.


Vettel confirmed himself on BBC 5 Live that the software upgrade to the engine mapping from Valencia onwards had made a big difference to him. For him it was a matter of correcting a problem in the car. So it was more than just Mark Hughes saying it.

Also mentioned by Legard last year here:

"Vettel has admitted he's felt much more comfortable in the car since new software was installed to enable smoother power delivery through the double diffuser to accelerate out of corners."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...mit-it-how.html

Personally I doubt we will see much of a gap change between the two, after all this is a new car, the RB7 doesn't have a DDD etc. But there may be a tenth in it. If Mark gets on top of the tyres as well then who knows. He was only 0.4 off Vettel in Montreal without KERS, so he's not too far behind.


Edited by goingthedistance, 17 June 2011 - 11:05.


#16 handel

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 20:22

Thanks for finding the article. Yeah, I suppose it was wishful thinking more than anything. Still looking forward to seeing the difference the ban makes!