74 replies to this topic

[Rennmax]

Yes Renn . I see the data base has him behind a couple of G50's !

For whatever reasons, I remember that race quite vividly, I watched it at Glentramman. The conditions were treacherous and one of the G50 riders was Tom Herron

Edit: No, Tom finished behind Ditchburn

Edited by Rennmax, 06 July 2011 - 11:17.

[Russell Burrows]

For whatever reasons, I remember that race quite vividly, I watched it at Glentramman. The conditions were treacherous and one of the G50 riders was Tom Herron

Yes, I think I remember it being wet for part of the race and watched from the approaches to Ramsey and Cruikshanks. I don't recall anyone being shot at by a sniper, do you?

[Rennmax]

Yes, I think I remember it being wet for part of the race and watched from the approaches to Ramsey and Cruikshanks. I don't recall anyone being shot at by a sniper, do you?

Hi Russ, don't know the sources of Lutonboy's version, but it's a bit of a 'James Bond' scenario me thinks. Jimmy Guthrie was highly respected over here and still is

[larryd]

Hi Ben, I once saw a picture of Guthrie's bike which showed the rear wheel had gone astray. This would suit the 'Joe Craig' explanation that the broken conrod caused a massive jolt which eventually broke the rear axle.You could argue now in this case either the primary or secondary chain would break first....


Some years ago, having a great interest in Pre-War Continental road racing, I did a bit of research on this.

My eventual theory was that Kurt Mansfeld, knowing that Jimmy G was astern and closing, went into the downhill righthander too fast and, realising that he was in over his head, tightened his line - in itself, a perfectly reasonable act.

However, Jimmy was going through on the inside, and was inadvertently pushed into the paling fence. Shooting across the road to the outside of the curve, he was fatally injured when he hit a tree.

Stanley, having retired earlier, was spectating across the road from the initial brush with the fence.

Helmut Krakowizer told me that he felt that mine was a reasonable surmise - indeed, he told me that Mansfeld was "a proud and hotheaded man, who would not want to be lapped by the Norton"

Two or three years before Stanley died, I was visiting him at his home, and put my thoughts to him.

After reflection, he agreed that he may well have been a little harsh with his "he was fouled" comment.

I believe that, following this accident, the German authorities handed Mansfeld a two-year ban, and he was not seen again until the German GP in August 1939 when BMW, having lost Wiggerl Kraus with a broken leg and with Schorsch Meier in plaster (both from the Swedish GP), engaged Karl Ruhrschneck and Hans Lodermeier to ride the blown 500s, as well as "picking up" ("Motor Cycling") Kurt Mansfeld to make his first appearance since his disqualification.

Didn't do any good - he fell off on lap 23 and retired!

[jaybee49]

Interesting to ponder. Perhaps someone should devise a Duckworth Lewis type system ;) The list of blokes who were stars elsewhere but for whatever reason just didn't cut it on the Island is a fairly long one: Gould, Sheene, Ditchburn for starters.

Barry Sheene when quite young suffered from asthma - on a early visit to the IOM he had an attack and ended up in Nobles hospital and it was touch and go for a while for the young Sheene. Might put anyone off visiting in future years let alone race? He then fell off at Quarter Bridge when he did decide to make an appearance as a competitor . Later in his career he also made it quite clear that he thought that the time involved (two weeks) and the effort (cost) involved to compete at the TT was more than it was worth to him.

His prowess however as a ‘road racer’ was clearly demonstrated by winning two world championships on mostly road type circuits.

My answer: Mike Hailwood. His 1965 rides on the new 350 MV to lead Redman by over 20 seconds until the little MV stopped and falling off the 500 and re-starting with a damaged bike and to go onto win were truly inspirational rides.

[Russell Burrows]

Barry Sheene: His prowess however as a ‘road racer’ was clearly demonstrated by winning two world championships on mostly road type circuits.

Imatra and Brno might be seen as such but with a lap of about 10% of that of the Island, not too much of a comparison. Where else where these road circuits? He was pretty free with his condemnation of the island on safety grounds, not convinced he ever saw himself as a 'roadracer'.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 06 July 2011 - 19:30.

[Rennmax]

Imatra and Brno might be seen as such but with a lap of about 10% of that the Island, not too much of a comparison. Where else where these road circuits? He was pretty free with his condemnation of the island on safety grounds, not convinced he ever saw himself as a 'roadracer'.

He did the GP rounds at Spa, Sachsenring, Clermont-Ferrand and, if unavoidable, the Nürburgring Nordschleife. And he wasn't mean at Scarborough, so don't be too harsh on him

[exclubracer]

He did the GP rounds at Spa, Sachsenring, Clermont-Ferrand and, if unavoidable, the Nürburgring Nordschleife. And he wasn't mean at Scarborough, so don't be too harsh on him

Indeed, and he lapped the old Francochamps circuit at 133+ IIRC.

[Russell Burrows]

Yeah, but are any of these really road circuits ? He clearly loathed the Island, a fact surely not unconnected with his lack of success there?

[jaybee49]

Yeah, but are any of these really road circuits ? He clearly loathed the Island, a fact surely not unconnected with his lack of success there?

You cant have success at a circuit that you chose not to race on - for what ever reason. He was ill in the IOM as a young kid on holiday with his parents.

You forgot; Spa, Austria, Nurburgring and Yugoslavia, and in those days others might consider Assen and a few others as well - depends how you define road racing. They were not comparable with the TT but they were not in anyway considered as ‘safe’ short circuits by any means.

He was also top liner around Olivers Mount, Chimay, St. Joris and the like and had no fear for them.

Edited by jaybee49, 07 July 2011 - 08:19.

[Russell Burrows]

You cant have success at a circuit that you chose not to race on - for what ever reason. Being in the IOM nearly killed him as a young kid on holiday with his parents.

You forgot; Spa, Austria, Nurburgring and Yugoslavia, and in those days others might consider Assen and a few others as well - depends how you define road racing. They were not comparable with the TT but they were not in anyway considered as ‘safe’ short circuits by any means.

He was also top liner around Olivers Mount, Chimay, St. Joris and the like and had no fear for them.

As we both know he did race there and fell off at the first corner, Quarter Bridge. I'm not questioning his courage, merely your suggestion that he was what's now known as a real road racer.

[jaybee49]

I am not going into semantics with you as that is seems that you want to prove a point Mr. Burrows but if you insist; I did not post the words ‘real road racer’. But even if I did, his pedigree on those types of tracks speaks for itself - what ever you like to think.

[Russell Burrows]

I am not going into semantics with you as that is seems that you want to prove a point Mr. Burrows but if you insist; I did not post the words ‘real road racer’. But even if I did, his pedigree on those types of tracks speaks for itself - what ever you like to think.

Don't get your knickers in a knot son, it's only a discussion. Anyway, I'll have to get back to you cos the Apprentice is on now

[Russell Burrows]

I am not going into semantics with you as that is seems that you want to prove a point Mr. Burrows but if you insist; I did not post the words ‘real road racer’. But even if I did, his pedigree on those types of tracks speaks for itself - what ever you like to think.

As is obvious, the guy was a hugely accomplished rider – not in my opinion one of the greats - who demonstrated guts and determination aplenty by coming back after some really horrible injuries. So I’m not attempting to deride your mate on that level in any way. However, as you know, he loathed the mountain course, failed miserably in his only attempt in ’71 and missed few opportunities thereafter to slag the place off. So your suggestion that he was really a ‘road racer’ because he raced at some circuits developed from public roads, when in fact these circuits bore almost no resemblance to the Island or Irish road courses, and when everyone else rode at these circuits too, is plain counterfactual sophistry.

His role in advancing the process of emasculating so many of our historic racing circuits is controversial too…..

Edited by Russell Burrows, 07 July 2011 - 20:58.

[jaybee49]

You mentioned or asked a question as to why in naming several riders as to why they did not pursue a TT career. Not knowing the entire mindset of the guy, but in response to your post I gave you some of my opinions as to why I think certain issues influenced him regarding competing in the IOM.

He was not my ‘mate’. I knew him quite well in his pre - and very early career days but then so did lots of others. Subsequently, I did not move in his circles, and I don’t for one minute think that he considered me to be a ‘mate’ either.

I am not a huge fan in that sense but have always responded the same when this old chestnut crops up about his lack of prowess in regards to his ability or other wise racing on road type circuits. Its clearly not the case is it what ever your opinions are on the criteria or eligibility of the term ‘road racing’ being restricted to the IOM or tracks in Ireland are simply that. Yours.

Apart from and as been mentioned by other posters his success on the basically roads based GP’s that he was required to take part in and the others that he chose to; Olivers Mount, Chimay, St. Joris etc. Which in my opinion would rank alongside any of those in Ireland as pure road circuits. It appears to me that some of your comments now are being influenced by another agenda, which if you’ll excuse me, but I am not going to be drawn in to.

My apologises to the starter of the thread for going off topic I have no more to post on this matter and that I have to get ready to attend Mallory Park, now.

My answer is Mike Hailwood for the reasons given.



A shot from Chimay but could be Ireland I feel.



A shot from St. Joris.

[Russell Burrows]

You mentioned or asked a question as to why in naming several riders as to why they did not pursue a TT career. Not knowing the entire mindset of the guy, but in response to your post I gave you some of my opinions as to why I think certain issues influenced him regarding competing in the IOM.

He was not my ‘mate’. I knew him quite well in his pre - and very early career days but then so did lots of others. Subsequently, I did not move in his circles, and I don’t for one minute think that he considered me to be a ‘mate’ either.

I am not a huge fan in that sense but have always responded the same when this old chestnut crops up about his lack of prowess in regards to his ability or other wise racing on road type circuits. Its clearly not the case is it what ever your opinions are on the criteria or eligibility of the term ‘road racing’ being restricted to the IOM or tracks in Ireland are simply that. Yours.

Apart from and as been mentioned by other posters his success on the basically roads based GP’s that he was required to take part in and the others that he chose to; Olivers Mount, Chimay, St. Joris etc. Which in my opinion would rank alongside any of those in Ireland as pure road circuits. It appears to me that some of your comments now are being influenced by another agenda, which if you’ll excuse me, but I am not going to be drawn in to.

My apologises to the starter of the thread for going off topic I have no more to post on this matter and that I have to get ready to attend Mallory Park, now.

My answer is Mike Hailwood for the reasons given.



A shot from Chimay but could be Ireland I feel.



A shot from St. Joris.

Oh you’ve gone all crypyic on me: agenda, what agenda?

You're continuing to attempt to muddy the issue: with the exceptions of a few meetings, how much of his racing was done on steeply cambered roads with hedgerows, gutters, drains, lamposts/other street furniture? I would suggest not too much.

Didn’t he infamously write something in the forward of a book on Joey to the effect that the ‘The Isle of Man is Crap’? You appear to want to rehabilitate him in the eyes of road racings fans by suggesting he could have suceeded on the Island if he had wanted. As I have previously mentioned, this is counterfactual history. And that way madness lies.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 08 July 2011 - 11:35.

[larryd]

Oh you’ve gone all crypyic on me: agenda, what agenda?

You're continuing to attempt to muddy the issue: with the exceptions of a few meetings, how much of his racing was done on steeply cambered roads with hedgerows, gutters, drains, lamposts/other street furniture? I would suggest not too much.

Didn’t he infamously write something in the forward of a book on Joey to the effect that the ‘The Isle of Man is Crap’? You appear to want to rehabilitate him in the eyes of road racings fans by suggesting he could have suceeded on the Island if he had wanted. As I have previously mentioned, this is counterfactual history. And that way madness lies.

Knock it off, Russ - and you, Jim - this is getting us nowhere !

[Hasselhoff]

Barry Sheene- A World Champion who never actually had to take on the IOM so he didn't, lucky chap if you ask me, what does it prove? **** all probably.

[joeninety]

Barry Sheene- A World Champion who never actually had to take on the IOM so he didn't, lucky chap if you ask me, what does it prove? **** all probably.

Didn't the world championship qualify in Barry's 125cc days ? I understand he also rode a 250cc Suzuki production bike ? But it doesn't really affect my original post, to me anyhow, any going off at a tangent or near fisticuffs makes a good read

Edited by joeninety, 09 July 2011 - 18:56.

[omobono]

Didn't the world championship qualify in Barry's 125cc days ? I understand he also rode a 250cc Suzuki production bike ? But it doesn't really affect my original post, to me anyhow, any going off at a tangent or near fisticuffs makes a good read ;)

Yes the TT was a world championship round in 1971. He had a last minute ride taking over Dieter Braun's entry. He was lying second to Chas Mortimer after the first lap and as previously stated fell off at quarter bridge, unable to continue due to a buckled wheel. It rained all day and the Senior was put off until the next day. I think he only practiced on a production bike, BUT I may be wrong.

[Classicpics]

Yes the TT was a world championship round in 1971. He had a last minute ride taking over Dieter Braun's entry. He was lying second to Chas Mortimer after the first lap and as previously stated fell off at quarter bridge, unable to continue due to a buckled wheel. It rained all day and the Senior was put off until the next day. I think he only practiced on a production bike, BUT I may be wrong.

Barry did have more than his fair share of accidents during his career, and was lucky to get away with them.

The really greats stayed on the bike and won races.

So he was very fortunate not to have been "forced" to ride alongside his team mates in the island by his works team.

He did state the obvious, the island is too long, dangerous, unforgiving, stonewalls etc etc. But anyone who rode there knew that. So his opinion counted for nothing. Had he ridden there and done well, history would have be different. I guess he didn't get instant success, so being defeated by the circuit he slags it off.

Anyway, Who was the best TT rider of all time?

I'll stick with my first offer.

1 Stanley Woods - Rough tough course in those days and lots of "works" opposition around too.

2 SMBH - He was fast anywhere but always had good machinery on the Island and boy he could make it look effortless

3 Bob Mac - First 100mph lap on "thin" tyres, 99+ on a 250, his ride in the wet on his norton after replacing the clutch. He was fearlessly
fast on the Island with any good bike.

Who's your best TT rider?

[Russell Burrows]

I like the guys who put up heroic rides on relatively underpowered singles against muliti cylindered and stroker opposition. Since I'm only a young bloke I've gotta go with those from the the late 60's : Alan Barnett and Peter Williams; bit of a fan too of big brother to my mate Jim.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 10 July 2011 - 17:27.

[SADBATCCM]

I am not going into semantics with you as that is seems that you want to prove a point Mr. Burrows but if you insist; I did not post the words ‘real road racer’. But even if I did, his pedigree on those types of tracks speaks for itself - what ever you like to think.

Well getting well pissed off with this he was not there he did this and that!!!
Hailwood never had the chance to see him ride, but to come back and win great
Joey have seen this man ride great road racer!! And the nicest bloke you could ever meet
M.C. Pint local lad, he has gone for the big class and not slowed to the 125s to get his wins!!
In summery I would say there all great for what they did and there’s not a clear winner!!
Ps and as for Barry great rider great for the up, he did ride some very street races!!
Your right Jim, Phil …

[Russell Burrows]

Well getting well pissed off with this he was not there he did this and that!!!

Why raise it again then?

[SADBATCCM]

Why raise it again then?

hi russ
did you or did not repeat your self .......................................
anyway i could ngaf !!