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The gap between racing games/sims and here


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#1 HoldenRT

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 23:51

I've been part of two different racing communities since around 2005 or so.

Autosport (or similar sites)- Serious discussions about the racing, the politics, heated arguements, aero updates, bashing and also a very good news site and magazine. Trying to talk about the community though, rather then Autosport itself. More prone to comments like "Lewis sucks" "I could do better" or posting on 14 page topics about Max. 200 page topics on Lewis and Fred? :lol:

Racing games/sims communities - Fun, geeky and sharing setups and helping each other, friendly and talking about the racing more light hearted, no serious arguements, care less about real life and what quote Lewis said and more about games/racing. A fellow respect for each other and also especially the real drivers. Any comments of criticism for the drivers is always in a very light hearted sort of way. Way too concerned about their suspension settings to worry about what Lewis said after Friday pracitice. :rotfl:

For me I've always been 50/50 of both, who swings both ways. But I have always had a hard time fitting in with either because it seems for most they are one or the other of these but rarely both. Either hardcore sim racer annoys his wife buying F1 cockpits and force feedback chairs who cares little for real life racing, or hardcore real life fan who loves Lewis or Fernando and uses a keyboard or gamepad for some "fun".

I've always hoped in the future the window would close between these two worlds. I had hoped that the Codemasters game could help with that but it hasn't seemed to. Autosport racing nights would be great, but not just that.. just being able to know people in general who can talk serious about F1 but also have some fun online sharing setups or racing etc.

I know I've been waffling on too much about F1 2010 lately but it's about 80% of what I've ever hoped for from an online F1 game/sim. I guess I could have just gone to Codemasters and spammed their forums right? Why here on Autosport instead.. well, hopefully this topic explains it a bit better. I remember even when I was in RF F1 leagues I rarely talked about them here. As I said above, it's like 2 seperate worlds, and mentalities.

Do you think it could ever change or is it certain that it never will? I was hoping there could be some overlap at some point in the future.

It's not about "I'm better then you ahahaha", it's about "let's have some fun together" "want my setup?" "nice race" etc etc.. Let's say you have 2 hours where your forced to do something.. argue about F1 on here for 2 hours or driving F1 cars for 2 hours? Or option C.. race F1 cars for 2 hours and argue about F1 while you stretch your legs in between races? :love:

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#2 Mary Popsins

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Posted 25 June 2011 - 06:38

That's the fun bit with modern gaming: you can play online versus other people. It doesn't need to be sims though. Burnout is more fun than F1 2010 and there are a lot of serious racing fans there too.

People still go watch and sometimes practice sport. The way I see it: they will reopen the gaming arenas and there will be some serious virtual competition. The difference with today's gaming will be the physical context, since we won't be playing from the bedroom.

If I understand the topic well it's about who's more funny: the gamer or the sunday racer?
Depends.
I haven't met rally amateurs for a while. They used to be friendly like normal people. Gaming brings more laughs for sure. The danger of falling from one's chair is, in most cases, non lethal. It is less demanding physically. You can chat during games, you can team-up, etc..
In some cases gaming is a very serious thing though. I can't say much about the racing games, mostly because I don't play on computers. But I've met and played with guys and chicks who are committed to gaming like hell and are not here to have a laugh.

In the future you will still have two communities: the ones who take themselves too seriously, and the ones who enjoy a good company.

#3 HoldenRT

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Posted 26 June 2011 - 16:12

You had some good points and it doesn't "need to be" sims, but I guess my main point was, there seems to be a big clash in the mentality between the two worlds and for example, the discussions about F1 here get so defensive, and arguementive and you have to be prepared when any discussion about a driver or team that it could break out into "fistacuffs" and get heated. That could go on for pages and pages etc etc. People take F1 SOOOOO seriously here. I remember seeing a pic in early 2010 with Webber snooping into McLaren's cockpit to see the F Duct and wishing they'd punched him. Vettel did it again this weekend.

Or look at the live forums/chat during quali or the race.. so much criticism of the drivers.. so much "LOL FISI SUCKS" and "LOL Massa spins again" but how many of those people could drive even 20 or 30 laps in a sim at a consistant pace with wearing tyres? Take the worst F1 driver in the field and he's still miles better at the art of driving then anyone who posts on Autosport.com. Fullstop.

People who can do the above don't talk like that. There is criticism but there is a respect there. Also an admiration, for all of them, not just the one you support. It's just a difference in mentality. But I hoped as sims and everything improve over the years, that the gap between the two worlds would close. Hardcore sim fans and hardcore racing fans united! In the world of sims, your credibility isn't on who you support or how well you can defend them, it's also on you. How you handle pressure, or how you handle a crash with a teammate or friend who you race with etc. It's also about fun, but you know what I mean. You yourself contribute a part of it. Some leages have press conferences for the top 3! :lol: On here your credibility mainly seems to be about if the person you support had a good or a bad race. So it's about "someone else" but yet it's way more fanatical then I've ever seen when it's about the people themselves. Their own achievements.

I would say that for alot of people, they are more invested in the team and driver they support then if something is realistic in a sim or not. And that they would be so distracted by that, that it would be hard to notice either way. Take DC for example.. he brought alot of credibility to the commentary team in the last few seasons because he is a driver that's driven with most of the field and also the modern F1 cars.. but instead of hearing about the positives of that, I see alot of complaints about his voice, his personality or how he is biased he is for Redbull. In other words, who cares if he knows what he is talking about DC's CHIN SUCKS! They talked in the race today about how low torque the engines have in low rev ranges and it's all tuned to 16-18k... and that would definately help make the cars seem "easier" without traction control.. especially compared to the V10's of years ago.. but how many noticed that thought "hmm maybe Codemasters traction isn't innaccurate afterall" and how many were too busy focussing on Vettel's lead or Hamilton's bad race?

Alot of people here seem more invested in wanting debate about something more like if Hamilton will go to Redbull, or an illegal part of a car etc rather then trying to master it all for themselves. Or taking the time to read a 100 page manual on how to drive cars better or how to learn how to build your own setups (PM me if you interested). "I have better things to do then worry about sims".. but what's more lame? Caring too much about driving sims and having fun in a game with mates or caring to much about driver quotes and engine modes? Or "I don't have the time for that". But is it a question of time, or how you allocate that time?

I play guitar and I see the same thing. There are those that spend that time practicing boring exercises but over a long period of time become better and there are others spend their time arguing about which guitar hero is the best (so and so sucks!) or which amp or pickups will make them sound better, while neglecting that without practice and being self critical nothing will make them sound better. Bad habits are reinforced etc etc. These are the people that will usually have been on a forum for 6 months or a year but have 2000 or 3000 posts.

Sorry for the whinge.. I like both of these two worlds, I just want the best of both. This is the best website/forum in the real world information for F1 as whole IMO. That's the main reason why I care so much. There are alot of positives on this place as well, it goes both ways. "Good race, you did a Kimi at Suzuka 05" "What's Suzuka 05?" It's nice to speak to knowlegable fans about F1 and it's history. With a high technical understanding of the ins and outs of this complicated sport.

That reminds me of one last thing.. people don't seem to have ANY problems on here understanding the technical aspects of racing if it means there team or driver can gain an advantage from it. I may be a bit of a setup geek etc but that stuff bores me to tears. 40 pages of a talk about a flexible front wing or mass damper. :drunk:

#4 Mary Popsins

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 16:00

There are too many threads about F1 that's my opinion. look at the recuring "who is the best driver of all times", geez.. that's me obviously (or not far from it) in some video games..

I prefer the "serious" gaming talk in general. This is the domainmost of the posters know better in fact. And it is still quite light-hearted and fun, apart from the way F1 2010 was received.

Just not the same worlds. Like discussing about music one can perform versus the current state of music, quite poor unfortunately.



#5 HoldenRT

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 03:49

You have a point..

Sometimes watching MotoGP or NASCAR etc and a driver does something and it's ohhh WTF and then nothing is said.. and if the same thing happened in F1 it'd be a huge thing like the world is ending. The length of pages on some topics is mind bloggling.

I also think that some people here are worried about damaging their rep or paranoid about being beaten or whatever.. like it would give someone a trump card to use in fanboy disputes. :lol: Where as in the gaming world, there is always someone better! Losing is inevitable. But you play regardless.

In racing comments.. you joke you laugh.. you offend somebody and then you are attacked. What you said about best ever.. In terms of the drivers, you are either the best ever.. or a young driver headed for greatness, or you are crap.

#6 T-Mobile

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 15:06

Well, I must by different then because I love both worlds. Gotta love real racing, and combine that with my interest in computers and games and racing sims are an obvious interest to me.

Your bit about the hardcore gamer bother his wife with sim chairs and such made me laugh...you should have seen my girlfriends face when I told her I was going to make a home-made racing chair from a real car seat. LOL, she thought I was delusional.

Although, more on point I must say I think the F1 fanbase might just have many different people. There are of course the older fans who have no interest in games anyway, all the way to foreign fans from places where gaming isn't so popular. I am not sure this is something that has a real answer.

Edited by T-Mobile, 29 June 2011 - 15:08.


#7 HoldenRT

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 22:11

I've seen the odd person like yourself, just not as many as I wish were so. And I have never met/raced with anyone like that on Autosport before after 6 years of being here. It's always been elsewhere, like hardcore simmers who also like real life racing, rather then real life racing fans who are also simmers. Those guys think I care about real F1 too much (like reading Friday stint times). And some here probably think I care too much about the gaming side. :p I'm sure there are more people here like yourself.. but I just mean the general vibe of the place.

For the racing seat.. it's really important to feel comfortable for long periods of time at a time.. just as important as setup IMO.. I used to get bad calf muscle cramps while learning to drive without TC or braking properly and that only went away when getting the chair and pedal angles right. Other people don't understand. :)

On your last point.. Maybe there is alot of people here or elsewhere who do like some sims but liking the SAME type of sims is where it is hard. The sim community is so divided and I know alot of people think the modern F1 cars are like sacrilidge. Too light, too much downforce, not enough power etc etc. So it might be about GP2 style cars, or tin tops like DTM, GT's or V8 Supercars or ovals, or old school F1 (where alot of people here are in the majority it seems).. where they have less downforce, more power and big fat slicks. I suck on those, before my time.. I want to drive the cars Vettel, Alonso and Schumacher drive etc. To drive anything else, it might be realistic but I always get sad that it handles like a pig compared to modern F1. Even iRacing, I love it and it's great but it's not F1. They even have Williams F1 car now (love to try it eventually) but if it's on Road America or Laguna Seca. That's not F1.

So finding this magical combination of these things, who also posts alot on Autosport.com seems to be like a needle in a haystack.

#8 Afterburner

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 14:40

I'm a huge fan of racing games for experiencing the psychological aspect of the competition behind them, but I tend to dislike competitive racing on sims. Something about the whole concept drives me away--I don't mind the less-intensive effort required to master games like F1 2010, but when you get among the crowd that goes nuts over virtual car setups that are all based off of programming anyway and not any real physical changes, then I get put off from the whole environment. It just seems incredibly pointless to me to fuss over the limitless ways you can change car characteristics by toying with the programming on a game--I'd rather just mod/hack the game to get the values I want than spend ages trying to find a good setup. I just don't have the time to master the nuances of the tuning programming between different sims. And among all this, I'd much rather race a game that doesn't attempt to be a full simulation of real life, because then I don't have to worry about my tuning setup or my car's alleged performance in relation to my competitors. Racing games are much more fun when the performance differences in everyone's vehicles is smaller and they have fewer vehicles to choose from, in my opinion.

This is why I believe that Mario Kart Wii is one of the greatest competitive online racers available at the moment. Granted, you don't have "true" braking points or gear ratios or car setups, but knowledge of racing tactics in general still counts more than anything--the fastest racers are typically the ones who know how to drive consistent lines and know the best overtaking spots. Yes, there are overtaking spots on Mario Kart. Yes, there is slipstreaming, blocking, and overtaking--all without items--on Mario Kart, even though the items account for at least 50% of the game's strategy. You pretty much have to give up an honest racing wheel and pedals for a controller, yeah, but it's a small price to pay if you're willing to put some time towards understanding the physics of the game. Pit five different players on five different bikes with different but roughly equal handling characteristics against each other on the right tracks, and you'll have a fight reminiscint of the most titanic F1 battles all the way to the finish if the players are evenly matched. You get some quite lousy races every once in a while, but if you have the patience to wait it out or find some good racers to play with, you'll get some amazing stuff worthy of being called "classic" regardless of what kind of motor racing you're into, in my opinion.

This isn't just about Mario Kart, though--there are a number of racing games that can produce spectacular racing just because of the way they're designed. And I'm not coming down on sims for not having good racing--because I've had plenty of epic battles in online races on sims--but overall, as a huge fan of Formula One and just motor racing in general, racing "games" are usually more enjoyable than racing "sims" to me. Burnout Paradise, Mario Kart Wii, F-Zero GX, Forza 3, and F1 2010 have been some of my favourite racers over the past few years. Maybe it's just because I'm not a hardcore sim devotee, and I don't have the time or patience to spend 20+ laps tuning every one of my cars when I can just play a game where everyone's in relatively equal machinery to begin with. :p

#9 HoldenRT

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 21:54

I'll try and keep it short but I know I have a tendenacy to waffle. :(

I apprecaite your perspective, I was exactly the same at one time. I didn't care much for setup, and it was all about fun. For me sims started on Race Driver 2 (or Toca 2, or V8 Supercars 2, different names for different regions) and it was great and it also gave a great taste of different tracks and series around the world.. Starting off with the Aussie stuff, found out that I love German tracks more and DTM and the like.. and then found out that I loved F1's most of all (their ficticious versions of F1). It was hard to race properly because they are so fast but it was a buzz that nothing else can compete with. I had to rely on friends for setup but it coincided with the release of GTR and alot of us migrated over. It was good timing for me, I decided I wanted to try something that could punish me for unrealistic driving or reward better driving. I decided to try and learn the proper techniques etc. Something that could match up better with the V8 Supercars I was seeing on TV (V8 mod). Took probably a steep 6 months of learning to get on top of it. It ended up being fun in a different way.. like 30 mins of steady fun rewarding consistancy and self preservation vs 5 or 10 mins of intense fun where it was flat out every corner. On some level I can never return to the level of fun in the beginning with more arcadier races. I don't blame anyone for preferring that racing, it's preference. For the same reason why cartoons can be better then a documentary. For why Inglorious Basterds can be in some ways better then Band of Brothers.

The hardest thing for companies like Codemasters or Simbin, or ISI or iRacing is trying to make something that can cater for both parties because they are radically different. You want there to be little or no setup and I want it to be real world measurements. When I race something with a locked setup like Meganes or V8 Supercars my first thoughts are it feels like a pig, it's too heavy or it won't turn and it takes weeks of adapting because unlike F1's it doesn't fit like a glove (for me). Setup really helps with that. The driving technique is the biggest factor and changing that helps the most but it's just nice to have other options to make it easier on yourself. What you said on paper makes sense.. it's all virtual and computerised why bother, but for me it's this or nothing. There's no physical option available.

For F1's.. setup and driving goes so hand in hand I don't know how to seperate it. Can only speak for myself but it's was so rewarding doing F1 leagues in rFactor a few years go. Doing a "virtual F1 season" was one of the greatest things ever especially for someone who posts here about F1 so much. The setup was one of the biggest factors. You know how in real life they design a car, test it preseason, then evolve it as they learn more and go track to track making upgrades?? It was the same thing in the league, only there was no aero upgrades. We all had equal cars but we would all go in different setup directions, the same way real teams go in different aero directions. The mod was never to use the same way the new cars are new to the teams. We all had to "unlock" the potential.

So you could look at the Ferrari's and see they were using more downforce, shorter gears, softer suspension and trying to go for corner speed (like the Redbulls of 2009 and 2010). Or you could look at us and say we are running less downforce longer gears, lower ride hieghts (due to less downforce) but we were still good in high speed corners due to alot of front weight. If we swapped them with each other, we'd both be slower. So we all had these different directions and different feels for how we all thought we could get through the races. We would have to live and die by the consequences and circuit to circuit it would change based on the characteristics of the track + our setup. Yeah we were allowed to change them race to race but they would be evolutions of the same core feel and setup. Because it takes experience to understand why something works and why something else doesn't. To go in a new direction is a risk, where as for "your way" you understand how the car reacts. You'd watch your competitors, you'd sandbag in the practice before qualifying.. you'd qualify on a certain level of fuel for a 1 stop or 2 stop.. and no one would trully know what you were doing until it came to the pit stops in the first stint. I get hard just thinking about it. It sounds corny on a forum but it felt great. Then we could all say good race and talk about how Max is a sicko. :lol:

It also taught me that setup and aero differences aren't much different, it's all just about improving your way of doing things for how you prefer it. Not stealing someone else's way. Similar to driving, they all go hand in hand. Setup, aero, driving in harmony together.

It's just rewarding on a level that other things can't compete with, but it takes a lot of messing around to be able to get into that point. Certainly someone can't come along after a week of owning the game/sim and jump right into it, but the rewards that come with it are so high. Win or lose, it's an "experience". It's not a bragging right (I know more on setups ner ner ner ) it's just a fact.

If I want to join my local basketball or cricket team I can't just turn up and play. I need to practice my free throws and jumping, or get my heart in shape, or work on my timing, seeing the ball, catching the ball etc etc. The greater the preperation I have, the more I can enjoy the rewards. Otherwise the coach puts me on the bench, or puts me last on the batting order or 12th man. I used to open the batting and HATED being benched in basketball. :p :p

I can't see how removing setup options could have improved that F1 league. F1 is all about the maximum and "insane handling cars". This is what I love about them. The high revs combined with the high grip and how responsive they are. To overtake someone cleanly in F1 who is of similar pace to you (computer or not) is very tough as the braking zone is so small. For me as long as the same options are available for all it isn't an issue as that's the thing with racing. It's competitive. It's a race. Consistancy between competitors is the main thing. I know setups aren't for everyone but if you were my teammate I would try to help anyway I can to make you feel more comfortable. I've seen people go from 15th one season to 3rd or 4th when paired with a different teammate.. I agree it's frustrating that they can't do that without the help, but we all need help, it's just a matter of teaching ourselves or having others teach us or how badly you want it etc.

I do understand that people want different levels of fun though.. different reasons, different motivations, different levels of committment. Slower cars like NASCAR or V8's can improve the racing, equal performance and no setup can improve the racing that's pretty much true. Smaller margins make closer races. It's just different. Everything has it's pluses and negatives. By the way, I LOVED Fx-Zero, we used to have 4 player races on N64, great fun. I love the music too. I haven't played Mario Kart in many years but I remember having a sleep over with a friend and we played it 4 or 5 hours straight until 5am. Very addictive. I am not against that fun, it's just a different type of fun. Both types are hard to compete with each other. The learning curve is removed and it's more like junk food vs health food. I love junk food. :p I just can't live off it. Haven't played the recent versions of these but I am sure they are even better. I wouldn't say no if I was over your house and you offered me a controller! By the way I remember a time in Gran Turismo I couldn't do a lap without spinning and didn't know the proper driving tehcniques while my friend would whip my butt. :blush: Wasn't so fun then, we'd have to switch to rally mode and bounce off the walls sliding everywhere. On that note, I've always loved Sega Rally and Daytona USA. :clap: It's all good. Different goals and expectations, for example some people spend 10 or 30 years learning to play guitar and some people just pick up Guitar Hero.


Shit. :(

#10 HoldenRT

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Posted 01 July 2011 - 22:17

Just had some flashbacks of sitting on the keyboard taking turns with my brother of playing Test Drive 6 many years ago.

Posted Image

Looking at the screenshot is embaressing. And there was no setups, no human players and using the keyboard but it was great fun. I think it was the fact of driving through cities avoiding police, and the sceneries of like London or different iconic places.

I think the danger for both sides.. for the sim side is taking too seriously. And never being able to appreciate the fun. The child like fun which can feel great. Like a historian getting angry at Inglorious Basterds.

Or wanting quick fun and being frightened off by learning curves or just having no desire at all in the first place to take it that seriously. Like someone who doesn't care about what really happened in WW2. Both sides miss out of something IMO but you have to feel it from within, no one can force you to appreciate one or the other. The moment someone forces you, it stops being fun. But when it comes from within both sides can be fun but for different reasons.

It's getting away from what the topic is about.. sim vs racing fan but a good point regardless I guess. If you have some friends over, there is no way you can have a serious sim/game be fun. Everyone will spin off and say "eff this". FxZero was great for this. Especially those last second finishes when you save up all your boost for the last few corners or push too hard and go off and die. :rotfl: But to have a virtual F1 season, in a different way can be very fun in it's own right. And help to appreciate what you see on the TV.

I will be honest, I've always wanted to learn flight sims (or to fly in real life). Have never learned either, and I'm not sure I'll ever want it enough to be able to go through with it. At first it's a huge pain in the ass and you have to want it bad enough to get through that shitty early phase where everything is difficult. The Matrix, how he learns to fight.. where's that technology when you need it.

Edited by HoldenRT, 01 July 2011 - 22:20.


#11 DanardiF1

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 17:25

I'm a motorsports fan who as a non-driver IRL wanted to see what it felt like to drive racing cars (and stock ones for that matter), so being an Autosport board member who then got into taking racing games and sims more 'seriously' (obviously it's for enjoyment, but taking the setup and feeling more seriously in order to get better) I felt it just natural to stick to Autosport rather than dip my toe into unfamiliar waters. It's definitely a niche forum in here, but I think the posters are more mature (whatever age they are) and ultimately have a good grounding in all types of motorsport.

I've always enjoyed racing games, and they've taken up the bulk of whatever games console (not really a PC gamer) I've had, right from my first one, Nigel Mansell's World Championship on SNES (me and my brother used to tilt our heads and pads like we were in the even back then!). Playstation1, 2 and 3, SNES, N64, Gamecube, Wii... I've always had racing games, both 'simulations' and arcade titles. I agree with Afterburner's assertions about Mario Kart, it's really hard racing, either multiplayer or online, so I think it was inevitable that I would move up to more 'grown-up' titles like Gran Turismo (the earlier titles were more car collecting and bashing racing than the setup and simulation 'tool' it's become to me now) and the nuances of the F1 games.

I don't think I really realised the power of the car setup until I got a wheel... that was a real eye opener getting steering feedback on what before was just some rumbles in a Dualshock controller. To be fast I had to almost throw out everything I 'knew' and start again, and it's been a really rewarding process getting better at driving (having no real world experience to fall back on) and better at making the car work, of whatever type. I've also noticed a change in how I 'play' these games/sims. Previously I used to have music on over the TV, as using a pad you'd need to be aggressive to be quick and my penchant for classic rock would help me get into that groove. Now I'm often in my own little bubble, with headphones going into the tv so I can hear the engine note, listen for tyre sounds, and generally to shut myself out to concentrate. If someone breaks my focus just momentarily, I normally have an off pretty soon after...

To sum up, I can't really decide at whether I'm a racing fan who sims, or a sim fan who likes racing.... as I'm only just scratching the surface of sims and what I can do with them. So at the moment I'd say I'm a big motorsport fan who would like a bit of that action without a real driving licence!

#12 DanardiF1

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 17:31

Just to add on some extra: I've not gone all-in with learning about this and that and the other regarding setup and what it can do, I've just gone along what I would consider a natural route. I've had a play with some perimeters, seen the negatives and positives, applied what I've learnt and then just enjoyed the better feeling from the cars for a while, before getting to a point where I feel 'what can I do now to go faster?'. That for me solves a lot of the 'over-serious' problems and takes it back to trial-and-error, which I always feel is more fun as there's not much at stake. If I was on iRacing for example, I'd probably not enjoy it right now, as I'm only scratching the surface of what my style is, driving technique, setting up cars, learning about how certain cars work. To throw myself into competitive waters when essentially I'm still a noob would be frustrating and probably put me off doing it again for a while.

#13 HoldenRT

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 00:13

I've not gone all-in with learning about this and that and the other regarding setup and what it can do, I've just gone along what I would consider a natural route. I've had a play with some perimeters, seen the negatives and positives, applied what I've learnt and then just enjoyed the better feeling from the cars for a while, before getting to a point where I feel 'what can I do now to go faster?'


I have only read that last post of yours not the one above it yet, but for setup that's all it is. You summed it up alot easier then I seem to manage. :lol:

It's trial and error. Even the real teams, it's trial and error. Testing.. trial and error. Simulations back at the factory.. trial and error. Experience and prior knowledge helps but then there is something new and it comes back to trial and error again.

It's just that for us, you might read some tips from online to help you decipher or understand exactly what the car is doing, it never hurts to have more information. (You can always choose not to use it). I find driving and music very similar in someways and no one likes to learn music theory, it's not fun. Music is fun. Regardless of your theory knowledge it's the practical application of the music that is important, the rest is just something that may or may not help you. Like a label to put on something, or a formula to help explain it. Tons of people have made great music without knowing anything on paper.

So for racing.. that's all it is. Try something, see if it works.. try something else, doesn't work, so go back to the previous thing. And gain an understanding for your own perspective of what you want it to do or not. The words on the page aren't necessary. The long definitions etc aren't necessary. It's an option. But knowing how it feels to change things to have it feel how you want it to feel is what matters and helping to understand where that change helps on on the circuit so that you can drive accordingly. Trying to find the right balance of "too much" and "not enough".

#14 HoldenRT

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 00:23

I don't think I really realised the power of the car setup until I got a wheel... that was a real eye opener getting steering feedback on what before was just some rumbles in a Dualshock controller. To be fast I had to almost throw out everything I 'knew' and start again, and it's been a really rewarding process getting better at driving (having no real world experience to fall back on) and better at making the car work, of whatever type. I've also noticed a change in how I 'play' these games/sims. Previously I used to have music on over the TV, as using a pad you'd need to be aggressive to be quick and my penchant for classic rock would help me get into that groove. Now I'm often in my own little bubble, with headphones going into the tv so I can hear the engine note, listen for tyre sounds, and generally to shut myself out to concentrate. If someone breaks my focus just momentarily, I normally have an off pretty soon after...

I really liked this. :) :lol: Both music and driving have a groove to get into! I love the classic rock thing you said.. haha. I had the same problems when getting a wheel (no FF) and then again for the first FF wheel. Like having to start from scratch which definately isn't easy at first. You get these new things, it's supposed to be easier and better, all the fast people use them and there's the "WTF this is harder?" thing. Breaking habits is never easy. Having TC off was another one for me because I used to race with TC on low or med and it'd be a habit whenever your in a close scrap or from aradier titles to mash the throttle as it's intense and tensions are high. Then with TC off it becomes very difficult when all your instincts from previous titles are saying go go go and your foot is having to pretend it's wet, especially when your running different lines due to side by side etc. At the same time you are trying to race and get infront of this person. Add tyre wear into it, and it's even more complicated but as you said rewarding at the same time.



#15 DanardiF1

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 07:16

I have only read that last post of yours not the one above it yet, but for setup that's all it is. You summed it up alot easier then I seem to manage. :lol:

It's trial and error. Even the real teams, it's trial and error. Testing.. trial and error. Simulations back at the factory.. trial and error. Experience and prior knowledge helps but then there is something new and it comes back to trial and error again.

It's just that for us, you might read some tips from online to help you decipher or understand exactly what the car is doing, it never hurts to have more information. (You can always choose not to use it). I find driving and music very similar in someways and no one likes to learn music theory, it's not fun. Music is fun. Regardless of your theory knowledge it's the practical application of the music that is important, the rest is just something that may or may not help you. Like a label to put on something, or a formula to help explain it. Tons of people have made great music without knowing anything on paper.

So for racing.. that's all it is. Try something, see if it works.. try something else, doesn't work, so go back to the previous thing. And gain an understanding for your own perspective of what you want it to do or not. The words on the page aren't necessary. The long definitions etc aren't necessary. It's an option. But knowing how it feels to change things to have it feel how you want it to feel is what matters and helping to understand where that change helps on on the circuit so that you can drive accordingly. Trying to find the right balance of "too much" and "not enough".


I taught myself guitar in much the same way... listening to records and learning from them. Now I'm learning to 'drive' by getting tips from others and using trial-and-error based on these basic tips (much like learning basic chords and scales and going from there).

I've found that treating sim driving in the same way I started learning guitar 10 years ago (has it really been that long!?! :drunk: ) has helped both enjoy it more, and also learn new things without frustration and getting bored...

It's such a good feeling when you find even just a couple of tenths over your previous best lap, by whatever means (setup, new line, some Vettel powers :p), because you get that feeling of having done something you thought impossible when you set your previous best. I could only do a say, 1.14.1 at my best at that time. When you get into the 1.13's or whatever, you feel absolutely brilliant, and like I've heard real drivers say, it's often a better feeling than winning a race (getting pole position, or doing a great qualifying lap), because for that one complete lap, you've taken what you thought was your absolute best and pushed beyond it.



#16 Lights

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 08:06

Or look at the live forums/chat during quali or the race.. so much criticism of the drivers.. so much "LOL FISI SUCKS" and "LOL Massa spins again" but how many of those people could drive even 20 or 30 laps in a sim at a consistant pace with wearing tyres? Take the worst F1 driver in the field and he's still miles better at the art of driving then anyone who posts on Autosport.com. Fullstop.

People who can do the above don't talk like that. There is criticism but there is a respect there. Also an admiration, for all of them, not just the one you support. It's just a difference in mentality.

Hm, I don't think you can blindly assume that no serious simracers talk that way about F1, as I already know some who do. Darn good simracers I must add.

And I have never met/raced with anyone like that on Autosport before after 6 years of being here. It's always been elsewhere, like hardcore simmers who also like real life racing, rather then real life racing fans who are also simmers.

But that's kinda logical though, isn't it? People watch racing and think 'I would like to do that', people don't start simracing and think 'what's the sport behind this?'.

However, I get the point of your thread. But I'm sure there are plenty of simracers out there.

#17 Afterburner

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Posted 03 July 2011 - 15:46

I'll try and keep it short but I know I have a tendenacy to waffle. :(

I apprecaite your perspective, I was exactly the same at one time. I didn't care much for setup, and it was all about fun. For me sims started on Race Driver 2 (or Toca 2, or V8 Supercars 2, different names for different regions) and it was great and it also gave a great taste of different tracks and series around the world.. Starting off with the Aussie stuff, found out that I love German tracks more and DTM and the like.. and then found out that I loved F1's most of all (their ficticious versions of F1). It was hard to race properly because they are so fast but it was a buzz that nothing else can compete with. I had to rely on friends for setup but it coincided with the release of GTR and alot of us migrated over. It was good timing for me, I decided I wanted to try something that could punish me for unrealistic driving or reward better driving. I decided to try and learn the proper techniques etc. Something that could match up better with the V8 Supercars I was seeing on TV (V8 mod). Took probably a steep 6 months of learning to get on top of it. It ended up being fun in a different way.. like 30 mins of steady fun rewarding consistancy and self preservation vs 5 or 10 mins of intense fun where it was flat out every corner. On some level I can never return to the level of fun in the beginning with more arcadier races. I don't blame anyone for preferring that racing, it's preference. For the same reason why cartoons can be better then a documentary. For why Inglorious Basterds can be in some ways better then Band of Brothers.

The hardest thing for companies like Codemasters or Simbin, or ISI or iRacing is trying to make something that can cater for both parties because they are radically different. You want there to be little or no setup and I want it to be real world measurements. When I race something with a locked setup like Meganes or V8 Supercars my first thoughts are it feels like a pig, it's too heavy or it won't turn and it takes weeks of adapting because unlike F1's it doesn't fit like a glove (for me). Setup really helps with that. The driving technique is the biggest factor and changing that helps the most but it's just nice to have other options to make it easier on yourself. What you said on paper makes sense.. it's all virtual and computerised why bother, but for me it's this or nothing. There's no physical option available.

For F1's.. setup and driving goes so hand in hand I don't know how to seperate it. Can only speak for myself but it's was so rewarding doing F1 leagues in rFactor a few years go. Doing a "virtual F1 season" was one of the greatest things ever especially for someone who posts here about F1 so much. The setup was one of the biggest factors. You know how in real life they design a car, test it preseason, then evolve it as they learn more and go track to track making upgrades?? It was the same thing in the league, only there was no aero upgrades. We all had equal cars but we would all go in different setup directions, the same way real teams go in different aero directions. The mod was never to use the same way the new cars are new to the teams. We all had to "unlock" the potential.

So you could look at the Ferrari's and see they were using more downforce, shorter gears, softer suspension and trying to go for corner speed (like the Redbulls of 2009 and 2010). Or you could look at us and say we are running less downforce longer gears, lower ride hieghts (due to less downforce) but we were still good in high speed corners due to alot of front weight. If we swapped them with each other, we'd both be slower. So we all had these different directions and different feels for how we all thought we could get through the races. We would have to live and die by the consequences and circuit to circuit it would change based on the characteristics of the track + our setup. Yeah we were allowed to change them race to race but they would be evolutions of the same core feel and setup. Because it takes experience to understand why something works and why something else doesn't. To go in a new direction is a risk, where as for "your way" you understand how the car reacts. You'd watch your competitors, you'd sandbag in the practice before qualifying.. you'd qualify on a certain level of fuel for a 1 stop or 2 stop.. and no one would trully know what you were doing until it came to the pit stops in the first stint. I get hard just thinking about it. It sounds corny on a forum but it felt great. Then we could all say good race and talk about how Max is a sicko. :lol:

It also taught me that setup and aero differences aren't much different, it's all just about improving your way of doing things for how you prefer it. Not stealing someone else's way. Similar to driving, they all go hand in hand. Setup, aero, driving in harmony together.

It's just rewarding on a level that other things can't compete with, but it takes a lot of messing around to be able to get into that point. Certainly someone can't come along after a week of owning the game/sim and jump right into it, but the rewards that come with it are so high. Win or lose, it's an "experience". It's not a bragging right (I know more on setups ner ner ner ) it's just a fact.

If I want to join my local basketball or cricket team I can't just turn up and play. I need to practice my free throws and jumping, or get my heart in shape, or work on my timing, seeing the ball, catching the ball etc etc. The greater the preperation I have, the more I can enjoy the rewards. Otherwise the coach puts me on the bench, or puts me last on the batting order or 12th man. I used to open the batting and HATED being benched in basketball. :p :p

I can't see how removing setup options could have improved that F1 league. F1 is all about the maximum and "insane handling cars". This is what I love about them. The high revs combined with the high grip and how responsive they are. To overtake someone cleanly in F1 who is of similar pace to you (computer or not) is very tough as the braking zone is so small. For me as long as the same options are available for all it isn't an issue as that's the thing with racing. It's competitive. It's a race. Consistancy between competitors is the main thing. I know setups aren't for everyone but if you were my teammate I would try to help anyway I can to make you feel more comfortable. I've seen people go from 15th one season to 3rd or 4th when paired with a different teammate.. I agree it's frustrating that they can't do that without the help, but we all need help, it's just a matter of teaching ourselves or having others teach us or how badly you want it etc.

I do understand that people want different levels of fun though.. different reasons, different motivations, different levels of committment. Slower cars like NASCAR or V8's can improve the racing, equal performance and no setup can improve the racing that's pretty much true. Smaller margins make closer races. It's just different. Everything has it's pluses and negatives. By the way, I LOVED Fx-Zero, we used to have 4 player races on N64, great fun. I love the music too. I haven't played Mario Kart in many years but I remember having a sleep over with a friend and we played it 4 or 5 hours straight until 5am. Very addictive. I am not against that fun, it's just a different type of fun. Both types are hard to compete with each other. The learning curve is removed and it's more like junk food vs health food. I love junk food. :p I just can't live off it. Haven't played the recent versions of these but I am sure they are even better. I wouldn't say no if I was over your house and you offered me a controller! By the way I remember a time in Gran Turismo I couldn't do a lap without spinning and didn't know the proper driving tehcniques while my friend would whip my butt. :blush: Wasn't so fun then, we'd have to switch to rally mode and bounce off the walls sliding everywhere. On that note, I've always loved Sega Rally and Daytona USA. :clap: It's all good. Different goals and expectations, for example some people spend 10 or 30 years learning to play guitar and some people just pick up Guitar Hero.


Shit. :(

Don't worry about the long post. I'm quite often a rambler myself, so I can relate. :lol:

I guess arcade-like games just appeal more to me because they're better for people who have less time to spend on games. I have a lot of hobbies, but I'll typically spend about twelve hours a week gaming. That's around two hours per day or so, and on those days, I spend time on a variety of games--shooters (Call of Duty/Star Wars), platformers (Super Mario Galaxy/New Super Mario Bros.), an RPG or two (Zelda), sports games (generally Mario sports games), racers (mentioned above), and a host of others (Super Smash Bros./Portal). So you can understand why, when my taste in games varies so much to begin with (and I already feel that I spend too much time gaming, lol), that I don't really like to spend a lot of time setting up a car before I can even enjoy the deeply competitive side of a sim racer. :p It's easier for me to spend two weeks (read: twelve hours over a week) getting the hang of Mario Kart Wii, for example, and applying what I know about racing (passing/blocking tactics, etc.) to the physics of the game in order to be able to race it competitively almost right away. When you don't have to worry about aero, springs, dampers, and tyre pressures, and you can just get straight to picking the bike that best suits your driving style, it's far easier to get a competitive feel for the game. Now, if they would make public online races without items and on circuit tracks only (no motocross stadiums or jungle rallies, lol), I'd be in seventh heaven. :p

As for your post about arcade-like games being more like junk food than health food: that's a decent analogy, and it makes sense. Mario Kart's online races have a habit of condensing an hour's worth of simming into a little over two-and-a-half minutes. I feel that if I took the time to get as far into sim racing as you have, I would likely find it to be quite rewarding. I love the feel of a decent sim. Racing endurance races on Forza 3 or F1 2010 is something I enjoy, and winning them--even if only against the AI--still manages to feel special because you know that your efforts have come good. My absolute favourite part about these two games is the "rewind" system, though--a great feature if you don't want to spend twelve minutes re-running a short race because of a simple mistake. I just wish you could have infinite flashbacks on F1 2010 like you can on Forza. :well:

Nintendo's arcade racers have changed a lot since the ones I think you remember, though. I liked the style of the F-Zero on the N64, but I felt the one on the Gamecube was superior in terms of graphics and handling. I have never played a game that conveys a sensation of speed as well as the F-Zero game on the Gamecube--blasting in between a myriad of skyscrapers at the speed of sound on a track with a vertical hairpin and a corkscrew switchback has never felt so realistic. :lol: Mario Kart Wii is far different from its predecessors as well--drifting and button-mashing don't make you any faster anymore because of the way they've programmed the power-slide physics. On bikes instead of in karts, the racing becomes more like the style you'd find in a sim than in an arcade racer--the only thing preventing it from looking like a cartoon version of Moto GP are the items and envrionments, lol. Mario Kart Wii doesn't feel like older Mario Karts, but it offers a uniquely distinct, "newly innovative" feel that I haven't gotten from a racing game since Diddy Kong Racing on the N64 (which is perhaps the greatest arcade racer ever, in my opinion :p).

I hope that we aren't really going too far off-topic, as the subject seemed to be "racing sim community vs. racing community" at first, rather than "arcade racers vs. sim racers", but it has produced an interesting discussion nonetheless, lol. And in any game, the F1 cars are always the best; Burnout Paradise is a prime example of this. :p I just wish you could get F1 cars on Forza.

#18 Mary Popsins

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Posted 09 July 2011 - 04:12

I hope that we aren't really going too far off-topic, as the subject seemed to be "racing sim community vs. racing community" at first, rather than "arcade racers vs. sim racers", but it has produced an interesting discussion nonetheless, lol. And in any game, the F1 cars are always the best; Burnout Paradise is a prime example of this. :p I just wish you could get F1 cars on Forza.


I strongly disagree! The Dust Storm Super Turbo is a much better car, see how it bounces off the ski ramp!
:lol:

Freakin long posts you lot. That's not the kind of thing you'll see in the racing topics. There must be a reason for that, like it's what we do so we know best. Or because it's more fun to talk about one's achievements than comment on the grand prix. The motivation for posting here and there is surely not the same. We post about games because we want to tell stories.

This said, and despite the fact that some environments can turn the nicest people into complete assholes, I would not recommend many games forums to anyone because it's all about birds names and size of the bananas. Which makes this specific forum a nice place to pop in if I may say.