31 replies to this topic

[wallack4444]

Hello everyone
I have a massive collection of models and i have some missing that i know exsist- just need more info
1- In 1982 A Senna drove a Sunbeam Talbot Ti in the Shell super sunbeam race for celebrities and won the race
it was at Oulton Park in 1982
QUESTION IS ----what colour was this Sunbeam that he drove
Any help and i will be very grateful
thanks
ken

[paulsenna1]

I was there that day but for the life of me I can't recall the colour of that Sunbeam Talbot. I know it was the first race of the day, the first two on the grid for each of the day's races were invited to drive the identical Sunbeams. Senna won from FF2000 rival Calvin Fish and saloon racer Chuck Nicholson. Senna had a puncture in the FF2000 race later that day.

[Tim Murray]

Senna won by 7.1sec from John Brindley, with Chuck Nicholson third, Mark Hales fourth, David Ellis fifth and Walter Warwick sixth. Did Fish actually take part in the race?

[paulsenna1]

Senna won by 7.1sec from John Brindley, with Chuck Nicholson third, Mark Hales fourth, David Ellis fifth and Walter Warwick sixth. Did Fish actually take part in the race?

Just goes to show what relying on memory results in

Maybe Fish scratched from the race...

[Tim Murray]

The reason I asked was because there were only nine cars in the race, and as you pointed out above, the top two qualifiers in each of the other races could take part, so I thought that Fish might have declined the invite. However, it's not that simple, as there were more than five other races on the bill and John Brindley, for example, was at the front in two of them. It could just be that Fish finished outside the top six, for whatever reason.

[Chris Townsend]

IIRC those Sunbeams were the saloon instruction cars from Brands Hatch Racing - I was a pupil at the time, and remember learning the lines in one off Peter Argentsinger.
Again, my memory might be playing tricks but I thought they were basically black with Shell livery on them.

Chris

[DogEarred]

IIRC those Sunbeams were the saloon instruction cars from Brands Hatch Racing - I was a pupil at the time, and remember learning the lines in one off Peter Argentsinger.
Again, my memory might be playing tricks but I thought they were basically black with Shell livery on them.

Chris

Yes IIRC they were used for celebrity & invitation races as well as instruction. I was 'lucky' enough to get a race at Mallory Park once. We were given 5 mintues practice & then flagged to a stop on the grid. The race was then quickly started in whatever order you pulled up in. I think it was Tim Lee-Davey who used to organise the races & drove the cars a great deal I suppose. He was 'lucky' enough to pull up on the front row of the grid & walked away with the race! Despite good lap times, I was forced to a stop by 2 spinning cars & finished umpteenth. Most unsatisfactory.

[D-Type]

Did they ship the fleet of cars from Brands to Oulton and Mallory? Or did they have a fleet at each track?

[DogEarred]

Did they ship the fleet of cars from Brands to Oulton and Mallory? Or did they have a fleet at each track?

I think they used to truck 'em.

[FredF1]

IIRC those Sunbeams were the saloon instruction cars from Brands Hatch Racing - I was a pupil at the time, and remember learning the lines in one off Peter Argentsinger.
Again, my memory might be playing tricks but I thought they were basically black with Shell livery on them.

Chris

Like this?

[Tim Murray]

There was some variation in the colours from car to car, as can be seen in this clip of a race at Snetterton in 1982 posted on YouTube by TNFer Andy Kitson. The Sunbeam action starts at the 3.00 mark:

[alansart]

I think they used to truck 'em.

I seem to remember them being delivered to the circuits on a couple of open double deck car transporters.

[PMac]

There was some variation in the colours from car to car, as can be seen in this clip of a race at Snetterton in 1982 posted on YouTube by TNFer Andy Kitson. The Sunbeam action starts at the 3.00 mark:

That looks like David Tremayne of 'Motoring News' at 0:28 talking with ?James Weaver?

[DogEarred]

They seemed handle pretty well, I recall from my limited experience. But as instruction/invitation cars, they should have, shouldn't they?
I have in the back of my mind that they had some engine/suspension input from Lotus. Anybody recall?

[wallack4444]

I was there that day but for the life of me I can't recall the colour of that Sunbeam Talbot. I know it was the first race of the day, the first two on the grid for each of the day's races were invited to drive the identical Sunbeams. Senna won from FF2000 rival Calvin Fish and saloon racer Chuck Nicholson. Senna had a puncture in the FF2000 race later that day.

Hello all
I know the result but i need to know the car colour and race number so i can make a model of it
i have a model of every other car that Senna drove /tested inc the Merc and the Metro-both quite rare
also a 1/18 williams FW08C --very very rare
PLEASE HELP as i am fed up searching the net and not finding any info
thanks
ken

[wallack4444]

Hello all
I know the result but i need to know the car colour and race number so i can make a model of it
i have a model of every other car that Senna drove /tested inc the Merc and the Metro-both quite rare
also a 1/18 williams FW08C --very very rare
PLEASE HELP as i am fed up searching the net and not finding any info
thanks
ken

[D-Type]

Have you tried asking Shell. As sponsors they just might have photos of some of the races and if so they will now if they have one of Senna.

The callenge is getting to the right person. I would suggest a letter rather than an e-mail to their piblicity department would be the best starting points.

Have you tried the photo agencies?

[Andrew Kitson]

We have to remember that at the time Senna was just another South American FF1600/FF2000 driver ( albeit a very good one ) and these Sunbeam 'celebrity' races were commonplace at MCD circuits. A very different deal to the 'Ring race when he won in the Merc, by then an F1 driver and F3 champion. Therefore few would have registered what they were seeing at Oulton. Most of us had a 24, or if you were rich, 36 exp. film, would we have wasted a shot on these cars at a busy meeting? Photos may exist, would like to see one myself. I'd try LAT, Ferret..the usual suspects. Don't forget to mention the date and Oulton as circuit, 30th May 1982.

[Alan Cox]

Well blow me down, Ken, despite having told Andy Kitson, when he asked me, that I didn't have any pics of this race, I have found three negs from the beginning of a roll of film taken for the Chester Observer (and never having been printed before). Two of them feature Senna (or da Silva as he still was then) and, although in B&W, they show that his car was black with a white bonnet and roof and ran with the number 9. Sorry for the 'flare' on the film but it was from the beginning of a roll. Hope they might be of some use with your project.

[Phil Rainford]

Who is the brave man giving Senna a mirror full of his car Alan?


PAR

Edited by Phil Rainford, 25 August 2011 - 20:32.

[Alan Cox]

Could it be John Brindley?

[Tim Murray]

From the reports in both MN and Autosport it sounds to have been a fairly dull race, at the front anyway. Autosport says that da Silva pulled away from Brindley at around a second a lap. MN talks of a large gap between da Silva and Brindley, with another large gap back to Chuck Nicholson in third. The first dice was for fourth place. I think it's fair to assume that #20 is Brindley.

Edited by Tim Murray, 25 August 2011 - 21:36.

[elansprint72]

Whatever happened to the bloke who used to raise the bedpan every time a car came round Lodge (seen in Alans's 2nd photo)? I suppose new-tech made him redundant; that and a better(?) position for the commentator.

[elansprint72]

They seemed handle pretty well, I recall from my limited experience. But as instruction/invitation cars, they should have, shouldn't they?
I have in the back of my mind that they had some engine/suspension input from Lotus. Anybody recall?

The suspension was pretty similar to the Sunbeam Lotus; engine was derived from the Avenger Tiger motor with twin Webers, 1600cc. About 100 bhp, out of the box. Very entertaining to drive

[D-Type]

Just a thought: would the cars have kept the same numbers from meeting to meeting? If so any colour photo of #9 would give the necessary colour information.

[arttidesco]

Whatever happened to the bloke who used to raise the bedpan every time a car came round Lodge (seen in Alans's 2nd photo)? I suppose new-tech made him redundant; that and a better(?) position for the commentator.

I wonder he is a TNFer ?

[Pullman99]

...found three negs from the beginning of a roll of film taken for the Chester Observer (and never having been printed before). Two of them feature Senna (or da Silva as he still was then)

The Chester Observer's loss is our gain. Missed this thread when it first started. The Sunbeam Ti was in action (after the Escorts) on the MCD circuits for two (three?) seasons so they must have had quite a few star pilots at various times. Did any of the cars survive the experience? I'd forgotten all about this but it quite made my day to find that Ayrton Senna had been a Talbot driver and race winner!

Edited by Pullman99, 26 August 2011 - 07:00.

[Phil Rainford]

From the reports in both MN and Autosport it sounds to have been a fairly dull race, at the front anyway. Autosport says that da Silva pulled away from Brindley at around a second a lap. MN talks of a large gap between da Silva and Brindley, with another large gap back to Chuck Nicholson in third. The first dice was for fourth place. I think it's fair to assume that #20 is Brindley.

Many thanks Tim.....what is strange however is that Alan took one picture at Old Hall of Senna with Brindley in close proximity and then another from a spot that would have taken at least three or four laps to amble over to and Brindley was still right with him?

The shots could have been from practice or the reporter could have written the report from the bar??


PAR

[Tim Murray]

Good point Phil - I did wonder about that myself. Both magazine reports are extremely brief and could (IMHO) quite easily have been put together just by consulting the results sheet ...

[Alan Cox]

In those days, of course, one could start a race at Old Hall and sprint back to the footbridge and cross over while the race was still in progress. All the pics were definitely taken during the race, not practice. It does suggest, however, that Brindley was on da Silva's tail for a few laps.

[Stephen W]

Whatever happened to the bloke who used to raise the bedpan every time a car came round Lodge (seen in Alans's 2nd photo)? I suppose new-tech made him redundant; that and a better(?) position for the commentator.

Something to do with the marshal's line of sight from post to post? I seem to remember the "bedpan" was green.

[paulsenna1]

In those days, of course, one could start a race at Old Hall and sprint back to the footbridge and cross over while the race was still in progress. All the pics were definitely taken during the race, not practice. It does suggest, however, that Brindley was on da Silva's tail for a few laps.

Practice was held just before the race, the cars immediately forming up on the grid at the end of practice.