83 replies to this topic

[HistoryFan]

GBR is now number one in racing with the most wins in Formula One and the most teams are located in GBR. But why? Before 1950 only a few Britains were good, like Grover-Williams, Segrave and Seaman. The most important nation in racing was France with the first ever Grand Prix was in France and so on.

Why was France fallen and why GBR raising since the World Championship exist?

[Allan Lupton]

Good point!
It's tempting to blame Brooklands for diverting British racing talent away from the road racing that everyone else did a lot of. However when it came to long distance racing (at a time when good drivers did everything) there were drivers who could hold their own in any company on offer.
I'd say that those pre-war drivers who went in for Grand Prix races post-war had benefitted by the opening of Donington and Crystal Palace and the Campbell Circuit at Brooklands, their attempt to offer the alternative road circuit that Montlhery had always had.

[Lawton]

We have created an environment where talent can succeed and be rewarded .

[arttidesco]

I suspect the 'GBR is number one in racing' proposition could well be a bit of a myth that some folks in Indiana, North Carolina and California may well disagree with, it would be interesting to see how the stats that show sales volumes stack up in this respect.

That said GBR is well to the fore in Formula One and for that I suspect we have to thank the entrepreneurial spirit of garagistes like John Cooper, Colin Chapman, Frank Williams, Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren, Ken Tyrrell and at the other end of the scale Peter Connew to name but a few.

These men saw opportunities in the racing niche and got stuck in giving people from all over the world opportunities that France, Germany and Italy could only emulate on a lesser scale. Having a plethora of engineering talents like Keith Duckworth and the Costin brothers certainly aided the UK's cause, language and immigration policies may also have played an important role in making it easier for global talents to gather in the UK than in France for example.

[Vitesse2]

I'd argue that - with the exception of a brief ascendancy of Bugatti in the mid-20s (mainly due to weight of numbers!) and a year of Delage - French power in Grand Prix racing effectively ended after the 1913 GP de l'ACF. From then until the 70s and the advent of the Volant Shell scheme and then Matra she lived on past glories. French voices were loud in the committee rooms of the CSI, but they do say empty vessels make the most noise ;)

You have mentioned Williams, Segrave and Seaman but omitted Howe, Mays, Hamilton, Wakefield and honorary Britons Straight and Bira. Between the wars, most British drivers were content to stay within the British Isles, but they and others were prepared to race abroad: turning it on its head, very few Continentals ever raced in Britain! The British ERAs dominated 1500cc racing for much of the decade and it should also be borne in mind that until Donington was rebuilt in 1937 we had nothing here to compare to a Continental road circuit.

Being brutally honest, France had very few top-class drivers in the 30s either: Dreyfus, Moll, Sommer, Chiron and Wimille were all outstanding, but none of the other names would register with many people.

[Vitesse2]

I suspect the 'GBR is number one in racing' proposition could well be a bit of a myth that some folks in Indiana, North Carolina and California may well disagree with, it would be interesting to see how the stats that show sales volumes stack up in this respect.

Considering the current Indycar chassis is built by Dallara I think that's a bit of a red herring

[arttidesco]

Considering the current Indycar chassis is built by Dallara I think that's a bit of a red herring

I'll grant you the red herring but I was thinking in terms of the number of midgets, stock cars and drag machines, and everything that is needed to keep them going, built in the USA the UK's production numbers are probably pretty small though at the higher end of the technology tree.

[Tim Murray]

Between the wars, most British drivers were content to stay within the British Isles ...

Yes indeed. For many years the British generally adopted a rather blinkered, parochial attitude towards the goings-on outside these isles - events in this country were considered far more important. Even as late as 1953 Autosport devoted more pages to covering, say, the Exeter trial than it did to a World Championship GP, with less than a page on the Indy 500.

[Bloggsworth]

GBR is now number one in racing with the most wins in Formula One and the most teams are located in GBR. But why? Before 1950 only a few Britains were good, like Grover-Williams, Segrave and Seaman. The most important nation in racing was France with the first ever Grand Prix was in France and so on.

Why was France fallen and why GBR raising since the World Championship exist?

A study by the Japanese Industry Ministry in the late 20th Century came to the conclusion that of all the most important inventions of the previous 100 years 50% were British. Look at the history of the country, the scale of its empire, whether a force for good or not, and you will see that Great Britain has been at the forefront of exploration on all fronts, geographical, scientific, medical and other fields. The British have been good at thinking on their feet for centuries, an ideal quality when it comes to the ever-changing world of motor-racing ------ But that was then, this is now. Our education system and society in general are going to hell in a hand-basket, so I expect it will be downhill from here....

[Vitesse2]

Another thought: with the exception of a brief interlude of 11 months, British drivers in British-built cars held the World Land Speed Record for the whole of the four decades from 1924 to 1964. It then took us 19 years to get it back from the Yanks, but it's still British! The only French effort I'm aware of in that period burnt itself out while being tested on La Baule beach ...

[Ray Bell]

You've picked a good period there, Speedy...

From 1939 until 1964 there was very little going on at all in an effort to beat it... by anyone! A few hotrodders came closest, as I recall.

[Michael Ferner]

I take the Tidesco view on this matter: Great Britain number one in racing??? C'mon, get a grip... maybe in Yurrup, but hardly of the world. I bet there are several US states that beat Britain in revenue generated by racing related business!

[Allan Lupton]

I take the Tidesco view on this matter: Great Britain number one in racing??? C'mon, get a grip... maybe in Yurrup, but hardly of the world. I bet there are several US states that beat Britain in revenue generated by racing related business!

HistoryFan set the thread's subject as "Formula One" which I interpret as Grand Prix racing when applied to pre-1950.

All those ERA drivers referred to above were competing pre-war in Voiturette races or what later would have been Formula Two. When the first Formula One definition was drawn up it catered for 1½ litres supercharged so they could race in that, although somewhat outclassed by the Alfettas and Ferraris which had rather more powerful 1½ litre engines.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 11 July 2011 - 13:35.

[D-Type]

After WW2 and into the fifties we had a generation who simply wanted to race.

We also had a plethora of redundant airfields, each with a perimeter track. In addition to Silverstone, Goodwood, Snetterton and Thruxton, a quick ferret about gives: Brough, Boreham, Blandford, Castle Combe, Croft, Charterhall, Crimond, Davidsow, Full Sutton, Pembrey, Winfield and loads more. There were also the new "Park" circuits: Oulton Park, Cadwell Park and Mallory Park to add to Crystal Palace.

Clubs developed to run the races and a whole racing scene developed.

With that much racing going on a whole racing industry developed, producing tuning bits or entire cars: Aquaplane, Cooper, Lotus, Lola, Elva, Terrier, Lister etc. People learned the basics producing a 500cc car, or one for the 750 or 1172 formulae using Austin 7 and Ford 10 components respectively. then the Climax engine came along and the better ones could graduate to 1100cc sports car and F2 racing car production.

With such a healthy grassroots infrastructure of drivers, circuits, organisers and manufacturers it's easy to understand how things developed.

But, having said that, I do find it surprising that Italy, France, and, to a lesser extent, Germany didn't develop in the same way. Admittedly they didn't have the old airfields, but racing on closed public roads was allowed.
 

Edited by D-Type, 25 June 2014 - 15:45.

[RStock]

GBR is now number one in racing with the most wins in Formula One

I'll just note that you have to lump all the British teams together to beat one team from Italy.

(ducks and hides)

[RStock]

Being brutally honest, France had very few top-class drivers in the 30s either: Dreyfus, Moll, Sommer, Chiron and Wimille were all outstanding, but none of the other names would register with many people.

Wasn't Guy Moll Algerian? French father, Spanish mother but born and raised in Algeria.

[D-Type]

I'll just note that you have to lump all the British teams together to beat one team from Italy.

(ducks and hides)

Alfa Romeo, Maserati, Lancia, OSCA, Stanguellini, Dallara, ...

[DavidLayton]

GBR is now number one in racing with the most wins in Formula One and the most teams are located in GBR. But why? Before 1950 only a few Britains were good, like Grover-Williams, Segrave and Seaman. The most important nation in racing was France with the first ever Grand Prix was in France and so on.

Why was France fallen and why GBR raising since the World Championship exist?

I think that James May said it best, "It was men in sheds."

[Vitesse2]

HistoryFan set the thread's subject as "Formula One" which I interpret as Grand Prix racing when applied to pre-1950.

All those ERA drivers referred to above were competing pre-war in Voiturette races or what later would have been Formula Two. When the first Formula One definition was drawn up it catered for 1½ litres supercharged so they could race in that, although somewhat outclassed by the Alfettas and Ferraris which had rather more powerful 1½ litre engines.

There's actually another interpretation you can put on that, Allan. From 1938 virtually all the cars which are generally described as voiturettes were technically Grand Prix cars which just happened to have 1500cc engines, as they could be entered in Formula races on the sliding weight/capacity scale rule. In practice, this only happened twice in any numbers - Tripoli 1938 and Bremgarten 1939 - but there are isolated 1500cc and 2000cc cars in some races. I think we might have seen more Bremgarten-style events in 1940.

This was all preparatory to the introduction of a new 1½ litre International Formula in 1941, for which at least three British, two Italian and one French cars were being planned. So it could be said that the outbreak of war actually delayed a "British invasion" by ten years or so ...

[Vitesse2]

Wasn't Guy Moll Algerian? French father, Spanish mother but born and raised in Algeria.

Technically, yes, but Algeria was still a French colony at the time. If you apply your criteria, Lorenzo Bandini was Libyan.;)

Edit: I even included Chiron, who - technically - wasn't French but Monégasque.

Edited by Vitesse2, 11 July 2011 - 15:00.

[RAP]

Without getting in to the Europe v US bit, I think D type has it about right. The opportunity to race on old airfield created a demand for racing cars that the entrpreneurs filled.

As I understand it the "problem" in the 50 / 60s with Italian cars was that they were very expensive, partly because each built their own engines (Stanguellini, Moretti, OSCA, Maserati, Ferrari etc) thus ruling out most would be racers, whereas in the UK the culture seemed to be to make use of production bits as much as possible and make the cars affordable.

This meant that people like Lotus & Cooper were effectively volume manufacturers whereas OSCA etc were specialists. Most things are explained by money !!

Edited by RAP, 11 July 2011 - 15:13.

[Vitesse2]

Plus of course the British special builders went ahead and built 500cc cars using all those war surplus bike engines, effectively creating a new class of racing, built on the foundations CAPA had laid before the war and which had been developed in the press through the war years.

The Italians just followed the course they'd set for themselves in the late 1930s: their post-war national rules were just what they intended using in 1941.

The French? Just more high-flown ideas ... Dommartin ... the USA project ... CTA-Arsenal ... Bugatti T73C ... Sacha-Gordine ... Bugatti T251 ... If just a fraction of the money thrown at those turkeys had been given to Le Sorcier what could he have achieved?

[David McKinney]

Without getting in to the Europe v US bit, I think D type has it about right. The opportunity to race on old airfield created a demand for racing cars that the entrpreneurs filled.

There were plenty of airfield circuits in Germany...

[Vitesse2]

There were plenty of airfield circuits in Germany...

... and no laws prohibiting competition on public roads. Not even in the British Zone.

[David McKinney]

Yet they didn't take advantage of the ability to race on public roads (AFAIK)

[Allan Lupton]

Technically, yes, but Algeria was still a French colony at the time. If you apply your criteria, Lorenzo Bandini was Libyan.;)

Actually it was not - Algeria was a departemente of France, so was on equal standing with any conventional bit of France as we know it now. Hence Guy Moll was born in France, albeit one of the African bits!

[Allan Lupton]

... and no laws prohibiting competition on public roads. Not even in the British Zone.;)

I can't remember any public road circuits in Germany then, or before. Hillclimbs (e.g. Schauinsland) and speed events (Dessau Autobahn), but not circuit races.

[Rob29]

Yet they didn't take advantage of the ability to race on public roads (AFAIK)

Berlin AVUS,Solitude,Norisring,Sachenring,Schlitzer Drieck?

Interesting that the Swiss are a major racing nation despite never having had a permanent circuit,and a government that banned racing in 1956.

[David McKinney]

Remembered after posting (but too late to delete): Solitude of course, and the Avus

There were several others in the '20s, which is of course OT

Edit: Your last two weren't in West Germany, Rob

Edited by David McKinney, 11 July 2011 - 16:30.

[Vitesse2]

Rund um Schotten, Karlsruhe, bikes in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, Saarbrucken ...

[RStock]

I'd argue that - with the exception of a brief ascendancy of Bugatti in the mid-20s (mainly due to weight of numbers!) and a year of Delage - French power in Grand Prix racing effectively ended after the 1913 GP de l'ACF. From then until the 70s and the advent of the Volant Shell scheme and then Matra she lived on past glories. French voices were loud in the committee rooms of the CSI, but they do say empty vessels make the most noise ;)

Well, Renault hasn't done so badly for themselves. And weren't they heavily involved with the original "Maranello Agreement"?

[RStock]

Technically, yes, but Algeria was still a French colony at the time. If you apply your criteria, Lorenzo Bandini was Libyan.;)

And I Scottish. I was forgetting the Colony thing. You are correct.

Edit: I even included Chiron, who - technically - wasn't French but Monégasque.

But forgot LeHoux. He doesn't rate?

[Bauble]

David McK, I expect most German airfields were full of very big holes!

Many British cars of the fifties were powered by the 'Bristol' engine, which was a BMW by another name and part of the spoils of war, D-Type hit the nail on the head, it was the World War that spawned so many English drivers. Many people needed a 'fix' after the excitement and tension of war.

Most of the drivers of the fifties made it on pure talent and determination, nowadays all you need is pots of moolah.

Edited by Bauble, 11 July 2011 - 17:57.

[arttidesco]

I can't remember any public road circuits in Germany then, or before. Hillclimbs (e.g. Schauinsland) and speed events (Dessau Autobahn), but not circuit races.

You have obviously not been to the Norisring which I believe has been operating since 1947.

[RAP]

David McK
In German airfields were still laregly operational in NATO hands or wrecked in the post WW2 / Cold war era. Nore were they are numerous as in the UK - lots of the Luftwaffe wasnt actually in Germany in WW2 but Russia, France etc ! Wheras the UK supported not only the RAF but the massive USAF too. Was it Churchill who said the British Isles were "an unsinkable aircraft carrier"?

Having said that, its still a mystery to me why Germany hasnt produced a stronger racing car industry, but I recall a thred on this before.

RAP

[Allan Lupton]

Should have remembered Solitude (having been there for a race in '62) and Norisring. Since AVUS was built as a dual-purpose road/test track I thought it wasn't really as much a closed public road as t'others.

[werks prototype]

We are an Island nation, and we like to 'make' things.

[CarlRabbidge]

The language, it was easier for the Australian and New Zealanders mechanics, engineers and drivers who were (and still are) such a dominant factor in the sport to live in England because of the language than to live elsewhere in Europe.
It is still a major factor today when our young people decide to head overseas to follow their sport of choice.

[macoran]

Reading this thread, I wonder why ?
I really wonder why?

I just can't seem to put Austin,Morris, Riley, Wolseley out of my head
If I continue any longer with Sunbeam, Hillman,Humber and Singer
I may be killing the thread.
the British motoring industry has really been a ringer !

[carlt]

we're obviously just better than anyone else !

[Vitesse2]

Reading this thread, I wonder why ?
I really wonder why?

I just can't seem to put Austin,Morris, Riley, Wolseley out of my head
If I continue any longer with Sunbeam, Hillman,Humber and Singer
I may be killing the thread.
the British motoring industry has really been a ringer !

Virtually all of them marques with distinguished sporting histories in the pre-WW2 era. Some even pre-WW1!

[Vitesse2]

we're obviously just better than anyone else !

I was going to post a link to Flanders & Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice", but I figured I'd just get flak from Gary Davies for what it says about the Welsh

[HistoryFan]

There was often America mentiones. I was talking about Grand Prix racing. Of course America is still a big racing nation, but it is also a completly different kind of racing, I think.

GBR number one after the war, perhaps also because of the war? Germany and Italy (not so much) had big problems after the war, weren't allowed for a little time.
But then, why GBR and not FRA? There are some good points here...

And it's very boring that national racing culture like the Tasman series, or the Japanese racing series are not as popular today as in the last years. Very sad.

[Wirra]

we're obviously just better than anyone else !

Not really... It's just a cold and damp place where there is nothing else to do!

[HistoryFan]

Considering the current Indycar chassis is built by Dallara I think that's a bit of a red herring

It's an other topic, but: It's a shame that Dallara built chassis in every Formula series that is important: GP2, WSbR, IndyCar, F3, ...
I hope there will be more in future
And more different chassis manufactures, perhaps teams building their own chassis.

[macoran]

Virtually all of them marques with distinguished sporting histories in the pre-WW2 era. Some even pre-WW1!

Ho hum, if I had invested money in them then, I would be double bankrupt now

[Vitesse2]

There was often America mentiones. I was talking about Grand Prix racing. Of course America is still a big racing nation, but it is also a completly different kind of racing, I think.

GBR number one after the war, perhaps also because of the war? Germany and Italy (not so much) had big problems after the war, weren't allowed for a little time.
But then, why GBR and not FRA? There are some good points here...

And it's very boring that national racing culture like the Tasman series, or the Japanese racing series are not as popular today as in the last years. Very sad.

There were never any (official) restrictions on Italians racing after 1945. See the Why only Germany? thread.

[David McKinney]

And they did have a flourishing motor racing industry after WW2, even if 90% of the makes used Fiat 1100 engines. They just didn't progress after 1960, perhaps because the Brits blitzed their Formula Junior contenders

[HistoryFan]

Oh okay, thank you. Than for Italy it is the same as for France. Perhaps in Italy were only the old drivers of the pre-war-era.

[Ray Bell]

Origtinally posted by David McKinney
There were plenty of airfield circuits in Germany...

Not to mention the Grenzlandring tank training track (or whatever it was)...

But when you have the Nurburgring, do you think of such simple things as a viable option?