47 replies to this topic

[Gil Bouffard]

OK smart guys!

Who first called the mid-engined 1961 Ferrari 156 "the Sharknose?"

The title 156 has nothing to do with the car model designation. Commencing in 1957 Ferrari used the numbers to designate engine size and number of cylinders. The Dine 246 was a 6-cylinder 2.4 liter engined racing car. The Dino 246SP was the sports prototype racing car.

As I remember, this numbering system died with the Ferrari F-40.

The Dino 156 engine was originally installed in a Ferrari front engined Formula Two car driven in 1957 by Luigi Musso (Naples) and Maurice Trintignant (Reims).In 1958 by Phil Hill (Nurburgring) and Peter Collins (Reims). In 1959 Cliff Allison drove the Dino 156 at Reims and by Wolfgang von Trips in the 1960 Siracusa Formula Two race.

An interesting note: For the Solitude Formula Two race in 1960 two Dino 156 engined cars were entered. A "conventional." front engined car for Phil Hill and the precursor to the 1961 Dino 156 mid-engined car for Wolfgang von Trips. Von Trips raced the mid-engined Dino 156 again at Monza and Modena. Richie Ginther drove the last race for the front engined Dino 156 in the same event

According to Doug Nye, Dino-The little Ferrari, Osprey Publishing 1979, the chassis for the mid-engined Dino 156 car was the original Dino 246 engined Monaco car raced by Richie Ginther.

The Dino 156 was the 1961 F-1 car and never officially called a "shark-nose," by Ferrari.

PS: Also, according to Nye, the late Hans Tanner claimed responsibility for the twin nostrilled nose design..

Gil

[fines]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
According to Doug Nye, Dino-The little Ferrari, Osprey Publishing 1979, the chassis for the mid-engined Dino 156 car was the original Dino 246 engined Monaco car raced by Richie Ginther

It was also the same chassis that carried Giancarlo Baghetti to the three wins in early '61. By then it looked just like the other Dino 156/61s.

BTW, Ferrari type numbers refered always to the engine.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by fines
BTW, Ferrari type numbers refered always to the engine.

I sure hope they will soon return to that lost habit (first dumped in 1986). I always despised those F93A, F399, F1-2000 and what-have-you designations. To many the 412T2 wasn't just the last real Ferrari because of its original red livery...

[Alvega]

...yet it already announced those following heresies. In fact, the 4 didn't stand for 4L, but for 4 valves per cylinder...

[Gil Bouffard]

I seem to remember that Baghetti only won a single Formula One Grand Prix counting for the Formula One World Drivers Championship in 1961. As a matter of fact I was there. The other F-1 race was a non-championship race...equals two wins.

I can't recall a 412T4. I do remember the 312T, the 126C and the 156/85 of the Turbo Era.

The 'C' stood for Compressor.

The comment about the Monaco car was for Barry Boor.

Gil

[David McKinney]

Syracuse + Naples + Rheims = 3

[Marcor]

4 if you count the Coppa Italia, a minor race at Vallelunga in October 12, 1961. He drove a rent Porsche 718/2

[Gil Bouffard]

Not too many people are going to remember the Naples race as it was run on the same day as Monte Carlo. So Baghetti got in two F-1 type races before winning his first and only Grande Epreuve.

According to The Encyclopedia of Auto Racing Greats, Baghetti also won the Coppa Italia at Vallelunga, giving him 4 wins for 1961.

I first became aware of Giancarlo Baghetti at the 1961 Nurburgring 1000Km. He and his co-driver drove a Ferrari GT and listened to the car's radio throughout the race.

Baghetti's Dino 156 was never an official Ferrari entry (although it was looked after by team manager Tavoni and Ferrari mechanics) and did not wear the SEFAC Cavallino Rampante as did the factory cars.

Gil

[David McKinney]

Sorry, I thought we were talking about his Ferrari wins

[dbw]

henry manny..[the original fthfl& hmbl srvnt]

[Barry Boor]

Getting back to the original question; now I am no marine biologist, and I can't stand animal, fish or bird programmes on t.v, but from what I have seen, I would say that any shark with a nose like that is in serious need of surgical procedure.

[Ray Bell]

Maybe a Hamerhead that's been too close to some propellors?

[Gil Bouffard]

So, what we have is concensus. Nobody knows!

How did it happen?

Here is the quote from Doug Nye's book, Dino-The little Ferrari, Osprey Publishing 1979.

" Hans Tanner-late Ferrari historian -explained its origin as having been brought to Ferrari by Fantuzzi, the former Maserati body-builder after he had bodied three Piccolo Maserati 250Fs for sale to private customers. These cars carried twin-nostril nose cones to make them look a little exotic and more attractive to race organizers, the shape having been sketched by Tanner himself, who in turn copied it from the stillborn Sacha-Gordine mid-engined Grand Prix car of 1953.... On Fantuzzi's suggestion it was adopted by Chiti's design team."

Gil

[Mickey]

Back to the original question:

Who first called the mid-engined 1961 Ferrari 156 "the Sharknose?"

Unfortunately, I do not know.

However, does anyone know if there was a similar nickname in Italian? I've read on the Shell website a mention of it as the "Bocca di Pescecane", but I would like to have more opinions.

BTW "Bocca di Pescecane" is not a literal translation of "Shark Nose", as "bocca" means "mouth". Also, "shark" can be translated to either "pescecane" (literally this means "dog-fish") or "squalo". "Nose", referring to F1 cars, is usually translated to "musetto" while, if referring to faces, it's translated to "naso".

[Mickey]

Sorry to bother you all. Does any of you have an answer to the post above?

Thank you.

[Marcel Visbeen]

I'd like to bring this thread back to the attention.
Just like 'Mickey' seven years ago, I was looking for the Italian equivalent of 'sharknose' but I couldn't find an answer. On an Italian forum someone called the 156 Dino 'squalo', which means shark, but I always thought that it was only used as the nickname of the Ferrari 553 F1.
Maybe one of the Italian TNF members can shed a light on this?

[Kingsleyrob]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Getting back to the original question; now I am no marine biologist, and I can't stand animal, fish or bird programmes on t.v, but from what I have seen, I would say that any shark with a nose like that is in serious need of surgical procedure.

I see where you are coming from Barry, but if you take a look here

http://www.google.co...1&ct=image&cd=1

you can see the connection with what appear to be 'nostrils'. So with a bit of artistic licence it fits pretty well really...

And I am prepared to bet that you are actually quite like the fact that we have such an evocative nickname for the '61 Ferraris.;)

As has been mentioned the term is applied to other cars like the Wainer FJ car, but probably only 'in homage' to the original, it's just a generic term now I suppose.

This link has some titbits http://www.sharknose.net/ I see it says that Doug is contributing to a documentary on the project. Maybe by the next Monaco Historique we'll see it going around the houses?

But alas Gil, no clues to might have first coined the term. Sorry.

Rob

[HDonaldCapps]

It was, doubtlessly, a member of the Yellow Press/Racing Comics, perhaps the only question being who stole it from whom and when. Since DSJ mentions only the "nostrils" in his report on the Siracusa race, the term seems to have possibly originated at some point during the May/June period, but not really become widespread until several years later.

Sorry, Gil, but years later I am still not certain exactly what the point is of your query is since the term itself and its origin are of little to no relevance.

[fines]

What about your reading skills, gentlemen, the question has already been answered, and in true TNF fashion within 10 hours of it being posed... over seven years ago!

[Kingsleyrob]

Originally posted by fines
What about your reading skills, gentlemen, the question has already been answered, and in true TNF fashion within 10 hours of it being posed... over seven years ago!

Well pointed out fines, but obviously missed by myself and a few others.

However, if it was in 'true TNF fashion' it would have had date, time, what Henry was doing at the time and who he was doing it with, if indeed he had company. Or some quote or a link to some text or article. That's not a criticism of dbw's post, just that it's not really in true TNF fashion, it's a bit minimalist...

As it is, it has perhaps been overlooked as a guess or a suggestion, especially as dbw never returned to put an end to the thread!

So having had the question answered, I can't help wondering when did HM coin it, and what he was doing at the time, where and who with!!;)

Rob

[David McKinney]

Not being a regular Manney reader back then, I'm with Don in that I don't remember seeing the term until some years later. ISTR we called them 'twin-nostril' models

[fines]

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob
However, if it was in 'true TNF fashion' it would have had date, time, what Henry was doing at the time and who he was doing it with, if indeed he had company. Or some quote or a link to some text or article. That's not a criticism of dbw's post, just that it's not really in true TNF fashion, it's a bit minimalist...

True, but perhaps Don is right in asking the question "Who cares?", and everybody is/was sufficiently satisfied with the way it was presented, as a guess, suggestion or whatever... :yawn:

[Bill Becketts]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Not being a regular Manney reader back then, I'm with Don in that I don't remember seeing the term until some years later. ISTR we called them 'twin-nostril' models

Visually, more nostril than nose.

"Shark nostril" would have never worked though.

[Vitesse2]

Off the wall and on no evidence - because it's late and I can't be bothered to look (even if I've got the evidence, which I probably haven't ) - I just wonder if it might be a retrospective comment from 1962, along the lines of "Ferrari unveiled a new nose on the 156, a departure from the pointed "shark's nose" look from 1961" ....

[Fr@nk]

In Italy didn't call "squalo" or "pescecane" the 156F1 and also the other Ferrari cars with this "double nose" (Dino SP - 246,268 ecc. ecc. and the TR '61 that won also Le Mans 24Hours).
But "sharknose" has become an useful nickname for these cars.
Frequently italian language take technical words from english language, in particular for the racing cars.
I.e We call the Ferrari GTO 1964 as "tunnelback" so it's easy to understand which type of the GTO series cars we are speaking about.

[Marcel Visbeen]

Originally posted by Fr@nk
In Italy didn't call "squalo" or "pescecane" the 156F1 and also the other Ferrari cars with this "double nose" (Dino SP - 246,268 ecc. ecc. and the TR '61 that won also Le Mans 24Hours).
But "sharknose" has become an useful nickname for these cars.
Frequently italian language take technical words from english language, in particular for the racing cars.
I.e We call the Ferrari GTO 1964 as "tunnelback" so it's easy to understand which type of the GTO series cars we are speaking about.

Thank you for your input. This was the clarity I was hoping for!

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Off the wall and on no evidence - because it's late and I can't be bothered to look (even if I've got the evidence, which I probably haven't ) - I just wonder if it might be a retrospective comment from 1962, along the lines of "Ferrari unveiled a new nose on the 156, a departure from the pointed "shark's nose" look from 1961" ....

Motor Racing's report of the 1962 German Grand Prix said that Bandini's new car lacked the "Shark's-head" nose of the earlier cars.

[ex Rhodie racer]

Don´t know and don´t care. It was, and still is, the greatest front end of any F1 car ever built.

[fines]

... if only the rest of the car wasn't that ugly!

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
OK smart guys!
Who first called the mid-engined 1961 Ferrari 156 "the Sharknose?"

As is sometimes the case, some Ferraris are christened after presentation. This name obviously comes from english speaking journalists. In R&T at the time a picture was published of the 156 F1 on stands without tyres during testing at Modena. The body of the 156 F1 just asks for being nicknamed Shark. As mentioned in italian this also qould have been squalo.
Mc Donough is his book Sharknose also concludes he did not trace who was responsible.

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard

As I remember, this numbering system died with the Ferrari F-40.

The F40 was first intended to be named 288 LM.

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
Also, according to Nye, the late Hans Tanner claimed responsibility for the twin nostrilled nose design..
Gil

Indeed, the concept had been done by Fantuzzi before on the Piccolino, inspired by the Sacha Gordini. Still in wind tunnel tests, Ferrari engineers did find stability improvements and applied it on the F1, as well as some sports cars.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
OK smart guys!
Who first called the mid-engined 1961 Ferrari 156 "the Sharknose?"

As is sometimes the case, some Ferraris are christened after presentation. This name obviously comes from english speaking journalists. In R&T at the time a picture was published of the 156 F1 on stands without tyres during testing at Modena. The body of the 156 F1 just asks for being nicknamed Shark. As mentioned in italian this also qould have been squalo.
Mc Donough is his book Sharknose also concludes he did not trace who was responsible.

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard

As I remember, this numbering system died with the Ferrari F-40.

The F40 was first intended to be named 288 LM.

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
Also, according to Nye, the late Hans Tanner claimed responsibility for the twin nostrilled nose design..
Gil

Indeed, the concept had been done by Fantuzzi before on the Piccolino, inspired by the Sacha Gordini. Still in wind tunnel tests, Ferrari engineers did find stability improvements and applied it on the F1, as well as some sports cars.

Originally posted by Gil Bouffard
The 'C' stood for Compressor.

I thought Ferrari said it stood for Competizione?

[Oleksij Hrushko]

May be it helps a little bit:
Autosport, May 5, 1961
Pit and Paddock
p.565 Photo of Ferrari's 156 nose with inscription "Fillet of Ferrari: The fish-like nose treatment of Baghetti's Syracuse - winning Ferrari

[Kingsleyrob]

May be it helps a little bit:
Autosport, May 5, 1961
Pit and Paddock
p.565 Photo of Ferrari's 156 nose with inscription "Fillet of Ferrari: The fish-like nose treatment of Baghetti's Syracuse - winning Ferrari

Thank goodness nobody coined the term "Fish-nose Ferrari".

Life wouldn't have been quite the same, although "Forza Fish-nose" has a ring to it...

Rob

[RA Historian]

The term "shark nose" is one of many that seems to have not only been coined retroactively, but also seems to get baked in to some minds as an official title. Others that fall into this category certainly include "gullwing" for the 300-SL coupe, a term which I see repeatedly used as if it were an official title rather than a slang description. As far as I know, "silver arrows" may well be in this category also. I may be wrong, but I tend to doubt that both Auto Union and Mercedes-Benz both officially called their cars such in the mid 1930s.
Tom

[ZOOOM]

I'd like to know where Kudzu came from....

ZOOOM

[RStock]

As far as I know, "silver arrows" may well be in this category also. I may be wrong, but I tend to doubt that both Auto Union and Mercedes-Benz both officially called their cars such in the mid 1930s.
Tom

I read somewhere that the Auto Unions were called "Silberfische" , or Silver Fish . Don't know if it's true .

[fines]

Only as a derogatory name - a "Silberfisch" is a pest!

[Tim Murray]

We've batted this one around a bit already:

Who came up with the name Silverarrows/Silberpfeile?

[lustigson]

On Ferrari's type designations, I posted something on F1Fanatic.co.uk a while back. It's not an answer to the original question, but hey, who care.;)

Regarding Ferrari type designations, there are a number of quite clear systems to it.

1. Capacity per cylinder
Most early type designations stem from the engine capacity per cylinder in cubic centimetres. So the 125, 375 and 500 had 125, 375 and 500 cc for a 1.5L V12 compressor, 4.5L V12 and 2.0L 4-cylinder respectively.

2. Total capacity plus number of cylinders
Mid-1950s designations changed with the Dino 246, which had a 2.4L V6 engine. Other examples are the 156 with a 1.5L V6, the 312 with a 3.0L V12 and the 312B with a 3.0L 12-cylinder boxer engine. The 1996 and ’97 F310 and F310B are easy, too: the first cars with a 3.0L V10, while Ferrari returned to this type of designation for 2006, with the first 2.4L V8 in the 248 F1 model.

3. Internal project numbers
The 640 through 643 cars simply had the internal Ferrari project numbers; the new F60 has project number 656, IIRC. The 641 and 642 are sometimes referred to as the F1-90, F1-90-2 and F1-91, though.

4. Years
F1/86 and F1-87 speak for themselves, as does F92A: it’s the Ferrari for 1992, A-version, while the F92AT was the same car with a transversal gearbox, hence the T. The same goes for the F93A for ’93. The whole F1-2000 through F2008 series is as clear as a bell (and boring, too), while F399 is the 3.0L car for the 1999 season.

5. Turbo cars
I’m not too sure about the 126 cars: they had a 1.5L V6 turbo, so should have been designated something like 156T. Ferrari only did it properly with the 1985 car, the 156/85, though.

Other designations
The 166T and D50 are exceptions in that the former probably was a 166 chassis fitted with a 3.4L 6-cylinder Jaguar engine, while the latter was the old Lancia car. Another funny one is the F1/87-88C, which probably was a modified ’87 car for the ’88 season. But I never quite got the 412 cars, because they didn’t have a 4.0L V12 nor had they 412 cc per cylinder. They ran a 3.5L V12, where the T was presumably again for the transversal box. The 1998 F300 is somewhat darker, too.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited by lustigson, 07 May 2009 - 08:30.

[Glengavel]

On Ferrari's type designations, I posted something on F1Fanatic.co.uk a while back. It's not an answer to the original question, but hey, who care.;)

Regarding the 126C, I remember at one time there was a proposal to lower the limit for turbocharged engines from 1.5 to 1.2 litres; maybe Ferrari were proceeding on that basis and didn't bother renaming the car when the proposal fell through.

[lustigson]

Regarding the 126C, I remember at one time there was a proposal to lower the limit for turbocharged engines from 1.5 to 1.2 litres; maybe Ferrari were proceeding on that basis and didn't bother renaming the car when the proposal fell through.

That would solve this issue, indeed.

[RA Historian]

I'd like to know where Kudzu came from....

ZOOOM

Kudzu is a vine that seems to grow everywhere in the southern part of the US. Jim Downing named his cars after this invasive plant.
Tom

[RStock]

We've batted this one around a bit already:

Who came up with the name Silverarrows/Silberpfeile?
[/quote]

So , it was only used in a derogatory manner ? I always thought it was more to describe their color and "fish-shaped body" ?

[Manel Baró]

In Italy didn't call "squalo" or "pescecane" the 156F1 and also the other Ferrari cars with this "double nose" (Dino SP - 246,268 ecc. ecc. and the TR '61 that won also Le Mans 24Hours).
But "sharknose" has become an useful nickname for these cars.
Frequently italian language take technical words from english language, in particular for the racing cars.
I.e We call the Ferrari GTO 1964 as "tunnelback" so it's easy to understand which type of the GTO series cars we are speaking about.

It's funny because a copy of the well-known "Auto Italiana" weekly (nº 1190 dtd 20-09-1962), shows a couple of images of a diverse 156 F1 experimental nose treatment without nostrils, under a bold letters reading " Lo Squalo Secondo".

[Arjan de Roos]

Regarding the 126C, I remember at one time there was a proposal to lower the limit for turbocharged engines from 1.5 to 1.2 litres; maybe Ferrari were proceeding on that basis and didn't bother renaming the car when the proposal fell through.

No, no, it was a 120 degree V6, hence 126.

The 1998 F300 is somewhat darker, too.

3 litre V10!

But I never quite got the 412 cars, because they didn’t have a 4.0L V12 nor had they 412 cc per cylinder.

I thought it was of the 4 valves and V12. Could be wrong though. T for Trasversale.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 07 May 2009 - 21:42.

[RA Historian]

No, no, it was a 120 degree V6, hence 126.

Yes, now that Arjan mentions it, a little light went off inside my feeble brain. I definitely do recall reading at the time that the designation was exactly as Arjan mentions; a V-6 with a 120 degree vee.
Tom

[lustigson]

No, no, it was a 120 degree V6, hence 126.

3 litre V10!

I thought it was of the 4 valves and V12. Could be wrong though. T for Trasversale.

Thanks. That 126C makes sense. As does the 412T bit. However, I was aware of the fact that the F300 had a 3.0 V10 in the back, but why is it called 300. For the 300 cc single cylinder capacity, perhaps?

[Arjan de Roos]

but why is it called 300. For the 300 cc single cylinder capacity, perhaps?

2.997/3 = 300 me thinks.

Now the F399 is another version: 3 litre for the 1999 season. I agree with some of you that it would have been better if Ferrari had maintained the two-three original ways of type indication.
Creative people seem to walk in and out of Ferrari.
What also is another anomaly is the use of the F-letter in front of the 3 digit number. It started after the F40 that a Ferrari was no longer called a 355, but a F355. No big deal if Ferrari hadn't used a project code since (?) 1960-ish with an F followed by a 3 digit number as in F106 for the 308 GTB or F146 for the new California.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 08 May 2009 - 10:22.