Jump to content


Photo

1971 Imola 300 Ferrari 512M


  • Please log in to reply
26 replies to this topic

#1 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:38

Arturo Merzario won the 1971 Imola 300 Interserie round with the works Ferrari 512 M that was shortly afterwards converted by the factory to 712 spec. Reports on that race seem to differ in terms of whether the car was already fitted with a seven-liter engine. It would have made sense if it had been, as the race would have provided a good testing opportunity prior to the engine's debut in the Can-Am series that summer. Does anyone know more about what engine was in that car that day? Thanks!

Advertisement

#2 Macca

Macca
  • Member

  • 3,724 posts
  • Joined: January 03

Posted 14 July 2011 - 11:53

http://www.barchetta...10.712CanAm.htm

Paul M

#3 alansart

alansart
  • Member

  • 4,419 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 14 July 2011 - 12:02

Paul Knapfield has 712 and a 512M, or are they the same car?

#4 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 14 July 2011 - 12:07

Paul Knapfield has 712 and a 512M, or are they the same car?


They are not; the 712 is chassis 1010 that started life as a 512 S, then became the first 512 M which became the 712.

#5 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 14 July 2011 - 12:09

http://www.barchetta...10.712CanAm.htm

Paul M


Thanks Paul, I know barchetta.cc, it is not always correct or complete, but it is one of the sources (of many) that confirm the car was fitted with the seven liter engine.

#6 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 14 July 2011 - 13:57

Thanks Paul, I know barchetta.cc, it is not always correct or complete......


Like: "Note: Enzo Ferrari attended the race to monitor how Merzario was doing with the newly implanted 712 engine" (source Barchetta.cc)

Should read practice, not race.


#7 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 14 July 2011 - 14:04

Like: "Note: Enzo Ferrari attended the race to monitor how Merzario was doing with the newly implanted 712 engine" (source Barchetta.cc)

Should read practice, not race.


Thanks, Arjan. Since if anyone would know, it would be you: what engine did the car have at Imola?

Edited by Formula Once, 14 July 2011 - 14:04.


#8 buckaluck

buckaluck
  • Member

  • 149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 14 July 2011 - 22:01

Hi all wouldn't the 712 engine have made the car illegal as the series had limits on engine size if so then it would have had to run with the 512 engine.
If it's the same size block and heads then they easily could have pulled a Smokey Yunick tricking the techs inspecting the car.

Buck

#9 Tim Murray

Tim Murray
  • Moderator

  • 24,590 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 14 July 2011 - 22:21

The Interserie was (supposed to be) the European version of CanAm, so there would have been no restriction on engine size. A few 'proper' CanAm cars did take part. Results here:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/in...erie1971.html#1

#10 buckaluck

buckaluck
  • Member

  • 149 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 15 July 2011 - 00:50

ah yes missed the word Interserie just was thinking Imola so yes no limit on engine size and yes would have been a good test for the motor to see how it held up before going to the Can Am. Being a pure racing motor vs a chevy production motor (mind you original design wise only and highly modified and all alluminum) I too would have had high hopes to it being more competitive then it actually was. I'm sure it could have been with a bit more funding but alas that seems to be the case with all innovations (we needed just a bit more funding).

Maybe we should start a thread about cars that could have been if they had just had a bit more funding but alas that would include about 65 to 75 percent of all race cars that didn't quite make it. The Ti22 car comes to mind or maybe the Lola T260 (Ughly), but the Lola 310 pretty but a handful from what i've heard needed way more sorting out, instead of sorting on the fly race to race, these are a few that seem to be "could have beens". The Cadillac LMP nice looking but underfunded ( I could have been a contendor) needed more development or if funded well didn't have enough development time prior to the first race. There are cars that no amount of money could have saved and that may be about 50% of that 65 -75 percent I mention but one never knows what might have been and if only. I mentioned a few quick ones but if anyone wants to comment it may be best to start a new thread rather then corrupt/change this one.

Buck

#11 simonlewisbooks

simonlewisbooks
  • Member

  • 2,118 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 15 July 2011 - 10:09

A few 'proper' CanAm cars did take part.


At some Interserie events, in fairness, quite a lot of them.
At the time (and repeated since) the series was usually bemoaned for not having much of an entry, but when you look at some of the events (certainly not all) it seems positively brimming with interesting machinery and often a lot of good drivers.

Imola featured..

4 Ferrari 512Ms
2 Alfa T33s
5 Porsche 917s
2 McLaren M8s (1 dns)
1 March 717
4 Lola T210/212 s
1 Porsche 908
1 Porsche 906

Sounds like an attractive entry to me!

At Hockenheim in October 71 there were
4 McLaren M8s
3 917s
2 512Ms (1 dns)
1 BRM (Brian Redman, a mere 3 secs faster than anyone else in practice)
1 Lola T222
1 March 717
etc.

Again I'd have gone out of my way to be there if I hadn't be 4 years old and in England at the time :lol:

I think history has been a bit mean to Interserie. It wasn't always as sparely populated as we have been led to believe - it just couldn't compare with the quality of entries in Can Am , but then what could?




#12 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 18 July 2011 - 07:14

Thanks, Arjan. Since if anyone would know, it would be you: what engine did the car have at Imola?

Mark, there is no definitive answer I am affraid. Some have written Merzario had a 712 engine (based on the 612 block and not a 256C or 261C stamped engine) in 1010. Their opinion based on some loose clues.
Still Forghieri has denied Merzario drove with 7 litre block at Imola. So officially he raced 1010 in 512M specs. But Forghieri was quite busy around that time, hustling with F1, Le Mans, 312PB, CanAm and other projects. He may have been wrong.
Lap times of practice and the race also don't indicate a more powerful engine on the fast track of Imola.

#13 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 19 July 2011 - 07:21

Mark, there is no definitive answer I am affraid. Some have written Merzario had a 712 engine (based on the 612 block and not a 256C or 261C stamped engine) in 1010. Their opinion based on some loose clues.
Still Forghieri has denied Merzario drove with 7 litre block at Imola. So officially he raced 1010 in 512M specs. But Forghieri was quite busy around that time, hustling with F1, Le Mans, 312PB, CanAm and other projects. He may have been wrong.
Lap times of practice and the race also don't indicate a more powerful engine on the fast track of Imola.


Thanks Arjan

#14 taylov

taylov
  • Member

  • 624 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 19 July 2011 - 12:03

The Interserie was (supposed to be) the European version of CanAm, so there would have been no restriction on engine size. A few 'proper' CanAm cars did take part. Results here:

http://wsrp.ic.cz/in...erie1971.html#1


In the early days, Interserie "was open to Group 5, 6 and 7 sportscars without any cylinder capacity restriction for the latter" (source - regulations for the Thruxton round held on 20.9.1970). The Group 7 sportscars remained unrestricted up to and including the 1972 or 1973 season. Thereafter IIRC a limit of 5,000cc was placed on the turbo cars.

Tony

Edited by taylov, 19 July 2011 - 12:06.


#15 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 31 July 2011 - 17:52

Lap times of practice and the race also don't indicate a more powerful engine on the fast track of Imola.


I agree Arjan. However, if 1010 was not fitted with the 7 liter engine at Imola that weekend, why would Ferrari have run the car (and risk it so shortly before its Can-Am debut) in a relatively unimportant race and why would Enzo Ferrari attend practice for that race? As a test the event would of course have been highly suited in terms of regulations, timing and location (I remember Merzario racing a 312 P/B a year later in the equally 'unimportant' Imola 500 event for which the car he drove was fitted with quite some updates to try for 1973).

Anyone has an Autosprint reporting on that 1971 Imola 300 race maybe?

Edited by Formula Once, 31 July 2011 - 17:54.


#16 simonlewisbooks

simonlewisbooks
  • Member

  • 2,118 posts
  • Joined: January 02

Posted 01 August 2011 - 08:56

I agree Arjan. However, if 1010 was not fitted with the 7 liter engine at Imola that weekend, why would Ferrari have run the car (and risk it so shortly before its Can-Am debut) in a relatively unimportant race and why would Enzo Ferrari attend practice for that race? As a test the event would of course have been highly suited in terms of regulations, timing and location (I remember Merzario racing a 312 P/B a year later in the equally 'unimportant' Imola 500 event for which the car he drove was fitted with quite some updates to try for 1973).

Anyone has an Autosprint reporting on that 1971 Imola 300 race maybe?



Reference "Unimportant" races - a term one often sees, most notably applied to the Hockenhiem F2 event in which Jim Clark died.
I can never quite figure this out. Look at the grid for that event and there are so many works cars, so many top line Grand Prix aces - being watched by a huge crowd, that the term 'unimportant' seems quite inappropriate and rather belittles the efforts of everyone involved. Just because it wasn't F1 didn't make it 'meaningless' as it's referred to in at least one book.

Similarly in the case of the Imola Interserie events, the entry was quite strong, very international, and watched by a big crowd.
It was also fairly close to Maranello so no doubt to Ferrari it didn't seem unimportant, or he'd have just sent the cars testing at Monza, surely? Much less risky.

I wonder if in future the DTM or the FIA GT will be deemed 'unimportant' just because it isn't F1? I also wonder if Hockenheiem and Imola were seen as unimportant at the time or just in retrospect (and probably by British authors, it has to be said) ?




#17 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,987 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 01 August 2011 - 09:57

Still Forghieri has denied Merzario drove with 7 litre block at Imola. So officially he raced 1010 in 512M specs. But Forghieri was quite busy around that time, hustling with F1, Le Mans, 312PB, CanAm and other projects. He may have been wrong.

Just a point of interest. 1010 was the first M type that appeared in a race at Imola 1970, then Zeltweg 1970 (Ickx/Giunti) and finally at Kyalami 9 hours. Rather than all the other M types which were customer owned cars, 1010 seemed to remain in the the factory's hands & thus was converted to the 712 for the CanAm series. It does sound reasonable to assume it might have carried a development 7 litre engine in the M as a means of testing it for durability/suitability before committing to the full on CanAm project.

Edited by mfd, 01 August 2011 - 14:50.


#18 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,966 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 01 August 2011 - 12:01

What I find interesting is that Merzario's 512M was a factory entry from SEFAC Ferrari. That's the first time I've seen that. AFAIK the factory was contesting the WSC with the 312PB and the 512Ms were all customer cars. Would this fact lead credence to the supposition that quite possibly Arturo's 512M did indeed have the 712 engine in it?

#19 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,987 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 01 August 2011 - 14:49

What I find interesting is that Merzario's 512M was a factory entry from SEFAC Ferrari. That's the first time I've seen that. AFAIK the factory was contesting the WSC with the 312PB and the 512Ms were all customer cars. Would this fact lead credence to the supposition that quite possibly Arturo's 512M did indeed have the 712 engine in it?

I thought I'd just suggested this in the post above :D

The 512M #1010 was debuted on 11/09/1970 at Imola 500k by SEFAC when the factory had already dedicated the year until then to racing the 512S.
The Imola race was part of the Interserie so the engine capacity would have been "open". When it appeared at the Zeltweg 1000k on 11/10/70 which was a WSC round capacity would have been limited to the regular homologated 5 Litres. The cars final race as an M was at the Kyalami 9 hours on 8/11/70.

The 312PB didn't race until 1971 at Buenos Aires. The customers with the 512S were offered the upgrade to M spec over the winter of 1970-71

Advertisement

#20 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,966 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 01 August 2011 - 16:00

I thought I'd just suggested this in the post above :D

The 512M #1010 was debuted on 11/09/1970 at Imola 500k by SEFAC when the factory had already dedicated the year until then to racing the 512S.
The Imola race was part of the Interserie so the engine capacity would have been "open". When it appeared at the Zeltweg 1000k on 11/10/70 which was a WSC round capacity would have been limited to the regular homologated 5 Litres. The cars final race as an M was at the Kyalami 9 hours on 8/11/70.

The 312PB didn't race until 1971 at Buenos Aires. The customers with the 512S were offered the upgrade to M spec over the winter of 1970-71


Yeps, guess I missed it.... :up:


#21 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,966 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 01 August 2011 - 16:04

If you look at the practice times, the Merzario Ferrari was over 1.5 secs. faster than the Chris Craft McLaren M8E. That makes me think it may have indeed been the 712 engine.

#22 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,987 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 01 August 2011 - 16:37

Yeps, guess I missed it.... :up:

Try this then for getting it around my neck :blush: - I'm writing about 1010 at Imola 500k in 1970 (where Merzario retired)
but the opener of this thread says
Arturo Merzario won the 1971 Imola 300 Interserie round with the works Ferrari 512 M 512M #1010 on 2/05/71. The cars debut as a CanAm 712 was at Watkins Glen on 24 July

#23 jj2728

jj2728
  • Member

  • 2,966 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 01 August 2011 - 19:49

What I find interesting, once again, is this; The Merzario Ferrari #1010 competed at the Imola 500k on 13/09/1970 which was a part of the Campionato Italiano Sport as a SEFAC entry. Was this the same car that competed at the Imola Interserie on 2/05/1971? If so, was it converted to the 712 that competed in the 1971 Can Am then after this race and before its debut at Watkins Glen in July?.....Am I just absolutely confused now or does it make any sense at all...... :drunk:

#24 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 01 August 2011 - 19:51

As for the above posts (thank you all), Merzario drove 1042 at Imola in 1970, 1010 made its debut as 512M on October 11 at Zeltweg.

As for 'unimportant' there was a reason for me putting it in between 's as I dont personally think the race was unimportant but I only wanted to underline its relative unimportance compared to Ferrari's 312 P/B, F1 and Can-Am programs at the time and the car's Can-Am debut (although it did race in the Watkins Glen Can-Am event in 1970 as a five litre 512 S of course...) being just weeks away.

Finally, an Italian photographer that I just contacted (who was at Imola in 1971) has period notes that say that Merzario did use the 7 litre Can-Am engine that day.

#25 Formula Once

Formula Once
  • Member

  • 868 posts
  • Joined: June 07

Posted 01 August 2011 - 19:55

And this is Imola 1970 by the way, another of Roy's wonderful films... See Merzario in 512 S...




#26 mfd

mfd
  • Member

  • 2,987 posts
  • Joined: May 03

Posted 01 August 2011 - 22:38

As for the above posts (thank you all), Merzario drove 1042 at Imola in 1970, 1010 made its debut as 512M on October 11 at Zeltweg.


Yes correct - my apologies! The Cavalleria 512S/M book has the Imola car described as 1010, when I double checked it is indeed 1042


#27 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 02 August 2011 - 07:33

A definitive answer should come from someone involved. I heard and read from several claims that the engine was 7.0. Even a witness who spotted a tape with "7 litri" on the tub of 1010 at Imola.
Forghieri stated it was a five litre. Maybe a smoke screen.
One may ask 'little Art' on this. You only need to find out on which track he is racing next weekend ;-)