63 replies to this topic

[rd500]

i was just looking at moto gps plans to hold the motegi round again when i saw this comment from the head of suits r us,

"if the riders do not want to go this is not my problem, we have an agreement with motegi and it is up to IRTA to get the riders to race"

correct me if im wrong but this type of attitude is disgraceful, was this not the same kind of attitude that caused so much problems in the past or is it acceptable now?

the riders are concerned about radiation, so do dorna not care about the riders opinions now?

on a lighter note i found a book which covers the 2001 gp season, there is a whole page in there where toby moody talks about the new 990 honda, apparently its smaller than a 250 and is lighter and more compact than any 500cc machine hes seen for not a lot of extra wotk or money. go figure

[tonyed]

i was just looking at moto gps plans to hold the motegi round again when i saw this comment from the head of suits r us,

"if the riders do not want to go this is not my problem, we have an agreement with motegi and it is up to IRTA to get the riders to race"

correct me if im wrong but this type of attitude is disgraceful, was this not the same kind of attitude that caused so much problems in the past or is it acceptable now?

the riders are concerned about radiation, so do dorna not care about the riders opinions now?

on a lighter note i found a book which covers the 2001 gp season, there is a whole page in there where toby moody talks about the new 990 honda, apparently its smaller than a 250 and is lighter and more compact than any 500cc machine hes seen for not a lot of extra wotk or money. go figure

Not a lot of support from me for Carmelo Epletive in the past but I have to agree that the riders are being very negative and I think poorly informed about the dangers associated with the Japanese round.

Just because the 'bubble dwellers' can set up a bike and ride it well doesn't make them the 'Brainstrust'.

Where's the 'We love Japan' banner now, I wonder?

I see the 'Red Bull Rookies' class is back next year with KTM 125s two strokes.

Looking at the lap times they should be faster than 'Motolawnmower'.

If you want to criticise the suits then do it because they haven't the guts to stand up against the 'Evil Empire' not because they have a contract to honour.

[Yendor]

Not a lot of support from me for Carmelo Epletive in the past but I have to agree that the riders are being very negative and I think poorly informed about the dangers associated with the Japanese round.

Just because the 'bubble dwellers' can set up a bike and ride it well doesn't make them the 'Brainstrust'.

Where's the 'We love Japan' banner now, I wonder?

I see the 'Red Bull Rookies' class is back next year with KTM 125s two strokes.

Looking at the lap times they should be faster than 'Motolawnmower'.

If you want to criticise the suits then do it because they haven't the guts to stand up against the 'Evil Empire' not because they have a contract to honour.

I have to agree, and while I do not think it is an altogether altruistic action, I believe Dorna have employed independent experts to travel to Motegi to take all necessary readings of radiation and they are due to report back next week. If this is true and the readings are consistent with there being no health risk, then I think the riders should think very carefully before sticking to their refusal to race, and to do what they purport to have been doing all year and to support Japan.

[joeninety]

I have to agree, and while I do not think it is an altogether altruistic action, I believe Dorna have employed independent experts to travel to Motegi to take all necessary readings of radiation and they are due to report back next week. If this is true and the readings are consistent with there being no health risk, then I think the riders should think very carefully before sticking to their refusal to race, and to do what they purport to have been doing all year and to support Japan.

Life is contaminated by double standards, back stabbers non more so than in modern high finaced sport. In the meantime conjecture rules the roost. Altruistic, don't think so, look how Jackie Stewart was castignated over the welfare of fellow drivers and the sad state of circuit safety. Riders are good souls at heart but given the chance to move on to a higher level strange forces take or try to take hold. It isn't a sport anymore. That's why I walked away from it all.
Would like to add it was nothing to do with Mick Grant, a good old stick as Rod will no doubt endorse.

Edited by joeninety, 17 July 2011 - 20:09.

[peterd]

Interesting comment here from Julian Ryder posted at the weekend on another site:

The other gob-smacker has been the riders declaring that they won't go to Motegi, because of some perceived fear of radiation from the Fukushima nuclear plant. Yes, the same riders who have been riding around all year with slogans in support of Japan all over their bikes and leathers. The same riders who asked for more information and then ignored it when it came. For the record, there is no increased radiation level at Motegi, and there is no radiation in the tap water (check the International Atomic Energy Agency's website for an enormous amount of data on Fukushima). You will be exposed to more radiation flying to Japan than over a weekend in Motegi, and if you're worried about the milliseiverts adding up, for pity's sake don't have an x-ray and definitely steer clear of CT scans. You'd also be surprised at the amount of radiation in a banana—look it up, they're full of potassium and the K40 isotope is seriously hot.

[Russell Burrows]

It would be a very trusting soul who accepted industry and regulator assurances on safety, particularly in a country with zilch natural resources and political/commercial imperatives ensuring the nuke system stays. I then don't blame Stoner et al one bit. As for contractual stuff: most of us have had those, but it's elf and safety, innit.

[fastfitter]

Is it just the 'big boys' who are threatening a boycott or does it include the smaller classes too?

[tonyed]

It would be a very trusting soul who accepted industry and regulator assurances on safety, particularly in a country with zilch natural resources and political/commercial imperatives ensuring the nuke system stays. I then don't blame Stoner et al one bit. As for contractual stuff: most of us have had those, but it's elf and safety, innit.

Let's be honest if Stoner grew another head he might have half a brain

I do understand some reticence due to the Japanese authorities 'reluctance' to come totally clean, however I also do believe that the lack of backbone shown by these ‘sportsmen’ is deplorable after their ‘photo opportunities’ supporting the Japanese people.

I spit on them.

[Russell Burrows]

Let's be honest if Stoner grew another head he might have half a brain

If he does go there, he could well end up growing another one. Or would that be his offspring?

[joeninety]

If he does go there, he could well end up growing another one. Or would that be his offspring?

I dont think it's fair to knock Stoner, he is a first class rider after all. Early on in his career he did forfeit being British 125 Champion to be a wild card in the Australian 125 GP. Love him or loath him he has still done more than anyone on this forum.

Edited by joeninety, 18 July 2011 - 20:38.

[picblanc]

He's driven round in circles chasing or being chased by other people driving round in circles, but I think I know what you mean.

[Russell Burrows]

I dont think it's fair to knock Stoner, he is a first class rider after all. Early on in his career he did forfeit being British 125 Champion to be a wild card in the Australian 125 GP. Love him or loath him he has still done more than anyone on this forum.

Erm, I wasn't, that was the other fella.

[joeninety]

Erm, I wasn't, that was the other fella.

Sorry

[joeninety]

He's driven round in circles chasing or being chased by other people driving round in circles, but I think I know what you mean.

To an outsider that's motorsport

[tonyed]

I dont think it's fair to knock Stoner, he is a first class rider after all. Early on in his career he did forfeit being British 125 Champion to be a wild card in the Australian 125 GP. Love him or loath him he has still done more than anyone on this forum.

Joe - This is ALL he has done. Nothing else.

Unfortunately like footballers, politicians etc, he and many others have lived in this ‘bubble’ all his life and has little knowledge of the real world beyond MotoGP.

He may have achieved a lot in his microcosm but to say he’s 'achieved' more than any Forum member is fatuous.

If these people are going to be honest and genuine, why didn’t they have their photo opportunities behind a banner saying:

‘**** the Japs we’re all right’.

[GD66]

Y'know Tony, you do come across as more than a little bitter on a wide variety of subjects.
That's up to you, but I find it a little incongruous on a bike racing forum to knock a bloke who's devoted his life, with the total backing of his parents, to being the best he can be as a bike racer. He did the hard yards, camping, living on two-minute noodles, and battled his way up through the British and Spanish junior and 125 ranks when he could have comfortably been a dirt-tracker, motrocrosser, or proddie racer in the comfort of his home environment. Nobody did him any favours on the way up, yet by the age of 21 he was a world champion and was married. Some people are still sorting out their signature by then...
If it disgusts you that he's shown the steel and drive to do what's required to follow a dream through to world title status, I find that a bit narrowminded in the environment of a forum based on bike race history. OK, he's done bugger all else for the benefit of the world in general...but he hasn't had time, he's been busy doing what he does !
And chances are, he'll be the champ again this year, on another brand of bike. If he doesn't go to Motegi, it'll be for whatever reasons he and others have decided, based on who knows what info ? Let's see what happens.... and worry about it then...

[tonyed]

Y'know Tony, you do come across as more than a little bitter on a wide variety of subjects.

No bitterness, a statement of fact.

Yes this is a nostalgia website and unless I am mistaken completely back in the days of yor racers were a different breed. It didn't stop them looking after No1 when it came to a ride at an injured riders expense but I am sure that there wasn't the crass hypocracy that is being shown by todays top men.

Supporting the privateers all but finished Geoff Duke for instance.

I have no beef with the 'bubble dwellers' of today other than be consistent and don't attach themselves to a campaign they clearly do not support. It doesn't do them any good and it doesn't do the sport (business) any good either.

[joeninety]

Nostalgia is a thing of the past by nature, it's great that this forum debates and introduces an element of detailed history for those who seek and digest. But the modern era rears its ugly head, for some anyhow, take it on board it's here to stay and in the fullness of time will be debated by new blood. I have been involed in racing from being five years old and was inspired by those chaps in black leathers, pudding basin helmets and above all charm a sporting charm. Its gone now, I held Rossi and co in high regard but this years unsporting anticts has left me cold. Motorcycle racing was always a sport but the uncharming side was always there on a lower level and never more so than in Phil Read, was he the first of the modern era of money back stabbing unscrupilous "Stars" ?

Edited by joeninety, 19 July 2011 - 20:45.

[rd500]

joe i think once the moneys involved it puts the pressure and the need to win at the forefront but sometimes the attitudes can have a lot do with it, sheene didn't do himself any favours in the end with a lot of his comments toward the factories.

it seemed read also had the win everything possible tag, which then increases when the money comes as you are expected to perform as the sponsors/factories see fit.

one thing i do think is the riders of old had a connection with real life and as tony said the modern riders dont have that, they are told how to speak to the fans/media as its part of the product being sold and they want us to like their product. long gone are the days when you could stick it into someone and it didnt really get noticed by too many people.

[Rennmax]

it seemed read also had the win everything possible tag, which then increases when the money comes as you are expected to perform as the sponsors/factories see fit.

You knock Read for his will to win ? Come on, this is the name of the game...

[GD66]

He's often been a target, but again he was a product of his environment. A single child, then after his parents split up his mum made sure she drove him hard to avoid failure. Probably would have had an even-more stellar career, but was unlucky enough to be a contemporary of the great SMBH, and has freely admitted to feeling the underdog up against not just Mike's awesome talent, but Stan's budget.
Struggled then and since to deal with people on a variety of levels, but etched out a race career spanning five decades, 52 GP wins in four categories and 7 titles, and remains Britain's most successful living racer, purely as a result of his drive and determination.
Omelettes and eggs.
He's been out to Aussie a couple of times racing and demoing, joined in with the bench racing in the evenings, bought his round when it was his turn, and was exceptional value for the clubs involved.
Not everyone's cup of tea, but his biggest crime is telling Bill Ivy he'd have to race for the 1968 250 title. 43 years later, forgive and forget surely...

Edited by GD66, 20 July 2011 - 09:26.

[Rennmax]

...and he proved in the final clashes with Bill Ivy (Monza and Race of the South) that he didn't receive the title completely undeserved

His TT comeback in '77 is a different story though

Edited by Rennmax, 20 July 2011 - 09:20.

[rd500]

You knock Read for his will to win ? Come on, this is the name of the game...

not at all, this is what makes racers great and sometimes controversial.

also guys its been confirmed [BBC] last night that lorenzo and stoner will not compete in japan.

[joeninety]

Interesting how much solidarity will be applied to this uniqe situation. I seem to recall at Mallory one Saturday evening, a meeting was called to vent our concerns over prize money. Wow what a difference a nights sleep makes, Saturday night fever turned into a damp squib come Sunday afternoon, not the likes of Charlie Williams and Steve Tonkin etc but the mid to lower rank and file turned out to be all mouth and stayed away. Didn't something like this boycott happen in 500 GP some years ago and a lower ranking rider won a hollow grand prix ? I tackled a few riders at Mallory and the excuse was they didn't want to upset their sponsors. Ah well....Solidarity easy to say, but not so easy in pratice. I'll probably get the old chestnut about well it's a sport but alas I'm not talking mega bucks just a fair package to keep your head above water. Listen to Joey in the exellent profile " The Road Racers" thirty quid for risking yer neck.....
When it comes to finace and profits, circa early 1990's I noticed the prize money for 125's equated to the entry fees taken from the reserve riders alone at Olivers Mount. Makes me almost propose the question who's the mug, but don't want to upset anyone...
It is after all an individual sport wish I could speak to Bill Ivy

Edited by joeninety, 20 July 2011 - 19:55.

[picblanc]

French GP, melting tarmac lead to the Yanks & Sheene etc boycoting the race the privateers out of necessity raced. Forget who won though?

[joeninety]

French GP, melting tarmac lead to the Yanks & Sheene etc boycoting the race the privateers out of necessity raced. Forget who won though?

Was It Dennis Ireland ? But still skips my question of solidarity amonst riders for whatever reason ie track safety, money etc. Their is two types of win after all

Edited by joeninety, 20 July 2011 - 20:09.

[Rennmax]

Was It Dennis Ireland ? But still skips my question of solidarity amonst riders for whatever reason ie track safety, money etc. Their's two type of win after all

Michael Frutschi won the 500 cc class and Tournadre the 250 cc class which was boycotted by Mang. Guess who won the title with 1 point more than Mang had achieved in the end....so much for solidarity

[joeninety]

Michael Frutschi won the 500 cc class and Tournadre the 250 cc class which was boycotted by Mang. Guess who won the title with 1 point more than Mang had achieved in the end....so much for solidarity

At the end of the day it is what you achieved in your own mind and how your fellow competitors and friends percieve what you achieved. Knee down man beware

[rd500]

the same happened at misano 89 for the 500 race after it rained, the top boys wanted not to race and seems they put pressure on the privateers, the privateers they went out anyway with 2 factory bikes of merkel and chili, resulting in chilis only 500 victory. the solidarity went out the window there as it was meant to be factory guys sticking together.

there was a few where it seemed they didnt know what was going on. argentina 87 where if it wasnt for the teams and some riders adjusting the layout of the track there were some that didnt want to race and im sure the british riders got they're passports black spotted for going there after the falklands.

yugo 90 is another where a few of the 500 guys again werent happy after there was a first corner melee only weeks after a rider was seriously injured at the same corner, it took a startline protest from the 125 guys before all was underway.

89 and 90 really stick out for me as the years where the professional side started to take over and the fim seemed out of depth, still relying on jury systems where most of them had never seen a gp before let alone have the final say. remember the 3 race spa gp?

[Hasselhoff]

The riders are concerned about radiation, so do dorna not care about the riders opinions now?

If they're worried about radiation then they haven't done the maths. Lorenzo made the call in March I believe which seems slightly premature.

Edited by Hasselhoff, 21 July 2011 - 07:27.

[bsracer]

No bitterness, a statement of fact.

Yes this is a nostalgia website and unless I am mistaken completely back in the days of yor racers were a different breed. It didn't stop them looking after No1 when it came to a ride at an injured riders expense but I am sure that there wasn't the crass hypocracy that is being shown by todays top men.

Supporting the privateers all but finished Geoff Duke for instance.

I have no beef with the 'bubble dwellers' of today other than be consistent and don't attach themselves to a campaign they clearly do not support. It doesn't do them any good and it doesn't do the sport (business) any good either.

There's an old video of Richard Petty getting out of his car and the windshield mouldings are all busted up. No one really does anything. I think he's still got a helmet on and wearing these cowboy boots. He jumps up on the car and kicks the mouldings off and jumps back in the car and takes off. Also reminds me of scooter racing long ago. My friend had a very trick Vespa (26hp Primavera!) and the clutch nut on the crank striped off after a race. It was a one off crank and we had another race to go to clinch the title for the year. We took the bike around the pits on it's side to get the nut welded on. We found some guy with a great big Arc welder in the back of his truck and asked him to weld the nut to the crank. He resisted and said he wouldn't because we'd never get it off. We insisted weld it, the crank is junk and we've got one more race for the championship. Ironicaly we won the title even though the welds broke but because they were so thick the thing held together.

I think the breed is long gone

paul

[7okai]

No bitterness, a statement of fact.

Yes this is a nostalgia website and unless I am mistaken completely back in the days of yor racers were a different breed. It didn't stop them looking after No1 when it came to a ride at an injured riders expense but I am sure that there wasn't the crass hypocracy that is being shown by todays top men.

Supporting the privateers all but finished Geoff Duke for instance.

I have no beef with the 'bubble dwellers' of today other than be consistent and don't attach themselves to a campaign they clearly do not support. It doesn't do them any good and it doesn't do the sport (business) any good either.

Hmm, I do recall the great Geoff Duke may have owed my grandfather a small favour from a 350 race at Monza, I believe. Don't mean to "burst the bubble" but when it came time for some support at a later date, the attitude was somewhat more altruistic than popular wisdom would have us believe. Just a fact from inside the bubble.

The topic will heat up and as the date becomes closer, we will see who actually goes. Maybe they all will, maybe some will not. This year has been the most interesting for some time, in so many ways, anybody that says it is boring should have their pulse checked.

Over.

Edited by 7okai, 21 July 2011 - 07:40.

[rd500]

it still lacks something pretty major though, however exciting they try and make it off the track with the media lapping it up like there was never a race before rossi started.

mabye the 3rd change of capacity in 10 years will change it but i highly doubt it.

[GD66]

Having said all of that, nought wrong with the tussle at the Sachsenring, great battles all through the field and any one of three could have won, no complaints this week !

Can't watch races from that track without wondering what a feisty field of bangers would do round there...

[rd500]

there was no question the 2 strokes had the 990s beat round there in germany, wasnt it funny how barros took out jaque and then 2 races later only he was given an rcv in the west team.

i think if rossi wasnt there the 500s would have won a few races that year and if rossi was riding a 500 they certainly would have won plenty. the protons spent a lot of that year being the fastest bikes in a straight line.

i must admit though going to mallory has renewed my faith there is a world outside of motogp and wsb.

[fastfitter]

Off topic but going back to Phil Read, did I read somewhere long ago that when Yamaha were looking for a rider for their new GP team they asked John Cooper "If we gave you a works 250 could you beat Hailwood?" His reply was that he'd try.

They then asked Phil Read the same question and the rest, as they say, is history ;)

Edited by fastfitter, 21 July 2011 - 19:15.

[Rennmax]

Off topic but going back to Phil Read, did I read somewhere long ago that when Yamaha were looking for a rider for their new GP team they asked John Cooper "If we gave you a works 250 could you beat Hailwood?" His reply was that he'd try.

They then asked Phil Read the same question and the rest, as they say, is history ;)

When Read joined Yamaha in late '63, he already had had his fair share of success with his Junior TT win in '61 and his rides in Duke's Gilera team, whereas John Cooper was possibly a rider to be reckoned with on a national level but with no international reputation. So I wonder whether the Yamaha bosses knew him at all. Jim Redman was the man to beat, Hailwood was on the MVs then. But I understand your point, if one has the slightest doubt about his own abilities, how gifted he may be, he wouldn't make it to the top, it's the 'self fulfilling prophecy' I guess.

Edited by Rennmax, 21 July 2011 - 20:10.

[joeninety]

When Read joined Yamaha in late '63, he already had had his fair share of success with his Junior TT win in '61 and his rides in Duke's Gilera team, whereas John Cooper was possibly a rider to be reckoned with on a national level but with no international reputation. So I wonder whether the Yamaha bosses knew him at all. Jim Redman was the man to beat, Hailwood was on the MVs then. But I understand your point, I think if one has the slightest doubt about his own abilities, how gifted he may be, he wouldn't make it to the top, it's the 'self fulfilling prophecy' I guess.

When you look at how many have raced at all levels over the years and how many make it, I've met and raced against many great hopefulls that never made it, Grantie is the only one I have met personally so far regarding it all, from club racer to International status.... A self belief a bit of luck along the way but self belief and dedication rules the roost and ultimataley wins through. A great example is Tony Rogers, he finished second in two Silverstone GP's in the early eighties...but sadly paled away....

[Paul Collins]

Very interesting thread and i've resisted joining up to now, but, from my own experiences through the years i've noticed that top line and potential top line competitors, who i've had any sort of dealings with, be it through buying a bike from them or helping them out in some way, have nearly all possessed a single minded determination, which at times can be perceived as selfishness or ignorance, but that is purely I think, the steely determination to succeed at all costs.

I've known riders who have been criticised for what appears to be greed, ignorance, lack of gratitude etc, but when you think about it, if they are aiming to get right to the top, the best in the country or the best in the world, that is the way they condition themselves, they need to be incredibly hard nosed, blinkered, nothing else matters, it is 100% about them getting there and everything else to them is secondary. To those looking in to their world from the outside it can easily be misinterpreted.

Edited by Paul Collins, 21 July 2011 - 23:40.

[GD66]

Dead right Paul, and I find it sad that Phil has been condemned for years as an a***hole when he did no more than what would be interpreted these days as a smart professional decision. Anyway moving on, Yamaha have made a bit of a fuss this year about being involved for 50 years in GP racing : who remembers who rode the first works Yamahas at the TT in 1961 ?

[Rennmax]

Hi Glen , if it's not a rhetorical question...

http://www.yamaha-mo...1961/index.html

coming back to the topic, some have it all: ability, self belief and all and nevertheless something is missing... John Kocinski might be an example ?

[GD66]

Yeah, but Renn.... Kocinski was a psycho !

"If they can't win it in three years, kick 'em out !"


"If you ain't American, you ain't **** !"


Such a diplomat...


In saying that though, Little John from Little Rock, Arkansas was bloody quick, and looked as good on a race bike as anyone I've ever seen...


And regarding the Yamahas in the Island in 1961, I was actually referring to the efforts of Tony Godfrey and Peter Pawson, who were signed up to ride by Yamaha but whose practice efforts seldom made it past Quarter Bridge...diplomatically, they declined to race, citing the Japanese refusal to modify the left-change gearshift pattern...


Thanks for the Race Archive link though, looks good reading.

Edited by GD66, 22 July 2011 - 07:02.

[Rennmax]

Yep, no doubt about his exceptional talents on a bike, he won his 250 cc title on a Yamaha when it was certainly not the quickest bike around and he was quick on the Cagiva, but...does anyone remember him revving the 250 cc Suzuki to death after the finish at Assen because he was not satisfied with it's performance ?

Edited by Rennmax, 22 July 2011 - 07:10.

[rd500]

yes the assen race im sure was when he came into pits afterwards and said he could walk round faster than that peice of sh*t!

i always think of john as a wasted talent, he was pretty awsome to watch and his wildcard on a 500 at spa he put in a great showing there. apart from his odd entrys into the 250 in 88/89 it takes something to win the 250 title at the first real attempt.

ones that always stick out for me is when cardus flicked him off after beating him in czecho, he wasnt happy and his passing in austria that year was fearless to say the least.

im surprised roberts didnt keep him for longer but i suppose at the time john had a diffrent style form rainey gardner etc, look how long roberts kept people like jmb and they were not as talented as john was.

i think the one that finished him with roberts was he didnt win that dutch tt in 92 after everyone had crashed out. [edited for speeellling mistakes]

Edited by rd500, 22 July 2011 - 09:07.

[GD66]

Yeah, plus I think KR ran out of puff with Little John's idiosyncratic behaviour, I've read an article or two that suggested those rocketing around on the XR100s at Kenny's ranch in the off-season feasted on Kocinski's obsessive-compulsive streak and would seize every opportunity to roost dirt into his unattended helmet, causing much frothing...

Edited by GD66, 22 July 2011 - 09:39.

[rd500]

yeh i have heard of this also, they used to wait until he had washed his motox bike and then cover it in mud, i remember a story about how he used to get dressed outside with a towel laid down in the paddock. he hated anything being dirty it seemed

[Rennmax]

Yep, allegedly he cleansed his helmet and gloves for hours, some kind of mania I suppose
Referring to the lost talents, Anthony Gobert springs to my mind..well, we discussed that issue some years ago.

[fil2.8]

Dead right Paul, and I find it sad that Phil has been condemned for years as an a***hole when he did no more than what would be interpreted these days as a smart professional decision. Anyway moving on, Yamaha have made a bit of a fuss this year about being involved for 50 years in GP racing : who remembers who rode the first works Yamahas at the TT in 1961 ?

Sonny Angel

[GD66]

Eek ! One from the Time Tunnel, Phil !
Sonny Angel was actually in the IoM in 1960, but only made the third lap of practice...still and all, his place in Yamaha's history remains valid.

[Hasselhoff]

I heard Kocinski used to spring clean his hotel room, the guys would be walking back to their rooms after a few cold ones and there he would be banging the rug down in the corridor and a vacuum cleaner going