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1972: Dan Gurney's challenge


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#1 john winfield

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Posted 20 July 2011 - 16:39

Reading an old Motoring News, I see that in 1972 Dan Gurney challenged the F1 teams to see who could lap the Nurburgring more quickly: a USAC car, or a contemporary Grand Prix car. Jacky Ickx announced that he was willing to have a go in the Ferrari 312B2.

Sounds wonderful, but I would have thought that the more nimble F1 car would out perform the more powerful USAC machine. Anyway, did anything ever come of this? Perhaps Ickx had second thoughts once he'd tried the early B3! Thinking about it, given that the Motoring News in question is dated December 14th 1972, I wonder if Maranello designed the Spazzaneve specifically for a wintry Nurburging challenge......

Perhaps this has been discussed on TNF; I had a quick look but couldn't see anything.

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#2 buckaluck

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 00:33

Well no replies so far so thought I would say something and that is it would have been interesting but I'd think the more nimble Ferrari might take the indy car.

I do remember that in 1974 at the Riverside F5000 race they allowed indy cars to compete with them and that Bobby Unser in a Gurney Indy Eagle out qualified both of Dan's F5000 cars in fact qualified 2nd behind Mario. So Indy cars did run well on road courses and horse power can make the difference
over handling.

So if it did happen would like to here about it too.

Buck

#3 Tom Smith

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 02:50

Not a very good yardstick for Nurburgring but in 1978 when USAC cars raced at Silverstone, Danny Ongais was 2.5 seconds quicker in practice than James Hunt's F1 track record.

Edited by Tom Smith, 21 July 2011 - 02:53.


#4 T54

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 03:15

Sounds wonderful, but I would have thought that the more nimble F1 car would out perform the more powerful USAC machine.

It is of course Monday morning quarterbacking, but after I saw Bobby Unser clean the clock of the F5000 at Riverside in 1974, I have absolutely no doubt that Unser would have indeed humiliated any 1972 F1 car in the 1972 Eagle-Offy, even on the difficult Nurburgring circuit.
Dan offered if I recall correctly, $100K (a pretty good sum in the day) for challengers to come up, and no one did. Maybe they knew where the money would have gone.

Even at 700kg, VS a 550kg F1 car, the Eagle had tremendous low-end and mid-range torque and over 1000 available HP in the turbo-Offy, VS about 550 very peaky HP and much less torque for the DFV. The Eagle was also benefiting from superior down force compared to period F1 cars, as the "banana" wings developed by Bob Liebeck and the yet unknown in Europe Gurney lip were great advantages...

#5 buckaluck

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:09

So T54 were you there at the race in 74 if so I was there too up at turn 6. Liked your info and insite and agree that HP ruled and suspensions were
common and simular and I don't think the tire size would be an issue it's the nearly double HP that would prevail.

Buck

#6 TooTall

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:32

I was there as well!

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Cheers,
Kurt O.

#7 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 05:54

It is of course Monday morning quarterbacking, but after I saw Bobby Unser clean the clock of the F5000 at Riverside in 1974, I have absolutely no doubt that Unser would have indeed humiliated any 1972 F1 car in the 1972 Eagle-Offy, even on the difficult Nurburgring circuit.


Hmmm...I was at the German GP in 1972 when Ickx lapped the Ferrari at "sieben minuten sieben sekunden" and went on to win the race by "48 sekunden." I would have been surprised to see Unser top that in the Eagle.

Philippe, you have the Eagle, and John Goodman has the Ferrari now. How about some kind of challenge...maybe at Laguna Seca? Or maybe one of the vintage racing magazines could do a comparison test?

Vince H.




#8 RacingCompagniet

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:08

Maybe memory betrays me, but wasn´t the idea that Icks should drive the Eagle and not the Ferrari B3? :confused:

#9 Ray Bell

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:10

I remember John Surtees saying he didn't like the 'New Nurburgring'...

He was talking about the update in the late sixties or 1970 when a lot of smoothing out took place. By the time of this challenge, the lap record was pretty fast, so I'd say the Indy car would have had more than just an outside chance of being fastest.

#10 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:35

Maybe memory betrays me, but wasn´t the idea that Ickx should drive the Eagle and not the Ferrari B3? :confused:


Maybe he still could? A seat swap?

Vince H.


#11 Tim Murray

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 06:56

Not a very good yardstick for Nurburgring but in 1978 when USAC cars raced at Silverstone, Danny Ongais was 2.5 seconds quicker in practice than James Hunt's F1 track record.

Comparing like with like: at the time of the Silverstone USAC race the outright circuit record was held by James Hunt in the McLaren M23 at 1 min 18.81 sec, set in 1976. Ronnie Peterson’s Lotus 78 had lapped in 1 min 16.07 sec in practice for the 1978 International Trophy F1 race. In practice for the USAC race Ongais took the Parnelli round in 1 min 16.25 sec , and in the race itself set a new outright circuit record of 1 min 18.45 sec.

#12 jm70

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 13:19

I worked that Riverside race from a corner.

#13 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 14:36

A bit off topic, but looking back to Ontario in 1971, it probably would have been a much different result if the F5000s had been replaced with USAC Indy cars.

#14 T54

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 16:06

So T54 were you there at the race in 74 if so I was there too up at turn 6. Liked your info and insight and agree that HP ruled and suspensions were
common and similar and I don't think the tire size would be an issue it's the nearly double HP that would prevail.

Of course I was, and was also privy to lots of information regarding the performance of there amazing machines.
The way Bobby so easily disposed of what were effectively the best F5000 of the time that day and the very configuration of the old Ring convinces me that Dan Gurney had his sums right in offering the challenge, because the 1972 Eagle with USAC unlimited boost would have simply overwhelmed ANY 1972 F1 car, by what I believe would have been a large margin.

As far as attempting to set this right today, let's not be foolish, it is simply unrepeatable. I am or other vintage racers, regardless of their talent or lack of it, are no Bobby Unser or Jacky Ickx in their top form as we saw them in their days. Both Ickx and Unser are now near geriatric and would be royally unable to repeat their past achievements, and there are plenty of other things in both the restored USAC machines and restored modernized F1 cars today, such as tires, shock absorbers and the simple fact that a DFV has gained a good amount of power from modern tech, while the 36-degree Offies have been static in their development since... John Drake and John Miller developed the 19-degree engines after 1973.
Also these cars are now museum pieces and while they can be exercised at a good canter, let's not be dead heroes to prove a point, metal DOES age, and we are driving old metallurgy here with tires having much greater grip than they used to 39 years ago.

Let simply say that no one picked Gurney's challenge in the F1 community because the F1 community KNEW they would get their clock cleaned, in my humble opinion.
And opinions may differ, but anyone who saw the 1972-1975 works Eagle-Offy run on ANY track would have a good idea of what I am talking about.


#15 Tom Smith

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 16:55

I was a guest of Team McLaren at an Indy car race at Michigan International Speedway in 1977. They were of the opinion at that time that the "Greatest Spectacle" in open wheel racing was Bobby Unser qualifying the Eagle at Michigan.
I was instructed to stand at the bottom of last set of stairs for the main grandstand which are literally next to the track outside of turn 1 when he qualified. They said Unser was the master of "Wall Effect" that is using the cushion of air between the car and the retaining wall. At that point when he went past you felt the air compression and were in the dreaded wake turbulence you were so close.

Edited by Tom Smith, 21 July 2011 - 17:04.


#16 T54

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Posted 21 July 2011 - 17:02

Hi Tom,
In 1977, Bobby was driving a Lightning-Offy for Cobre Tire if I recall correctly, and the works Eagle was manned by Pancho Carter and was the "sidehack" offset car of which I was entrusted with the decor, as with all works Eagles since the 1972 car. Are you sure of the year? Bobby drove the works Eagle through 1975, then he and Wayne Leary moved to Cobre. Bobby returned to drive the works Eagle in 1978, when it was black with a red, orange and yellow eagle painted all over its body.
Regards,

T54

#17 ZOOOM

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 12:31

Ah, ys... That '72 Eagle was stunningly fast!
Wayne Leary's horsepower, Gurney's flap, the outright braver than Dick Tracy Bobby Unser, all contributed to a fantastic machine.

One note........ Gurney's offer was even MORE interesting because he didn't propose running the Eagle, (an oval car) at Indy against the F1 machines... O no.
Dan challenged the F1 cars at a track where the F1 cars were record holders. A track Unser had never driven. A track that an Eagle had never been on....
Now, THAT took some brass appendages!

ZOOOM

#18 T54

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Posted 25 July 2011 - 14:06

Wayne Leary's horsepower,

Uh, John Miller.
Wayne was the crew chief but was not the engine builder. Wayne had plenty of talent but the credit for the massive HP to go to Miller and his team. :)



#19 LittleChris

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 01:25

Comparing like with like: at the time of the Silverstone USAC race the outright circuit record was held by James Hunt in the McLaren M23 at 1 min 18.81 sec, set in 1976. Ronnie Peterson’s Lotus 78 had lapped in 1 min 16.07 sec in practice for the 1978 International Trophy F1 race. In practice for the USAC race Ongais took the Parnelli round in 1 min 16.25 sec , and in the race itself set a new outright circuit record of 1 min 18.45 sec.



It's a long time ago Tim , but I thought the USAC cars ran without the Woodcote chicane and if so not actually comparable ?

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#20 E1pix

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 03:57

Not F1 vs. Champ Cars either, but I recall a few Champ Cars showed up at Road America in '74 also; Tom Sneva in Grant King's Kingfish-Offy, Dick Simon in an Eagle, and possibly John Martin in a McLaren, if memory serves.

Though those guys weren't of Unser's speed, the F5000 cars were much faster without a massive straight like Riverside's. I would suspect F5000 would be quicker at shorter courses as well, sans turbo lag.

Edited by E1pix, 27 July 2011 - 04:01.


#21 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 05:23

It's a long time ago Tim , but I thought the USAC cars ran without the Woodcote chicane and if so not actually comparable ?

They definitely used the chicane, Chris. There's a photo on the front of the relevant Motoring News showing the cars negotiating the chicane in the early laps of the race.

#22 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 08:54

It is of course Monday morning quarterbacking, but after I saw Bobby Unser clean the clock of the F5000 at Riverside in 1974, I have absolutely no doubt that Unser would have indeed humiliated any 1972 F1 car in the 1972 Eagle-Offy, even on the difficult Nurburgring circuit.
Dan offered if I recall correctly, $100K (a pretty good sum in the day) for challengers to come up, and no one did. Maybe they knew where the money would have gone.

Even at 700kg, VS a 550kg F1 car, the Eagle had tremendous low-end and mid-range torque and over 1000 available HP in the turbo-Offy, VS about 550 very peaky HP and much less torque for the DFV. The Eagle was also benefiting from superior down force compared to period F1 cars, as the "banana" wings developed by Bob Liebeck and the yet unknown in Europe Gurney lip were great advantages...



I am not so sure that the Eagle would have outperformed an F1 at Nurnburgring, As far as I remember, the 1972 Ferrari definitely wasn't the best car that season and to give F1 a better chance the best representative might have been the Tyrrell and/or the Lotus of that year.

OK, the Eagle had a app. 1000 hp Offy engine versus an F1 that barely had half of it. But that 1000 hp was only there on high revs and with the turbo working. Did the lay-out of the Nurnburgring allow the Eagle to be driven with high enough rpms to get enough turboboost and thus more power? because, on lower rpms withhout turbo boost, how much power did the 2.65 fourbanger come up with against a 3 liter V8? The Offy used methanol (potentially more powerful inder the same conditions then gasoline) but did that compensate at lower rpms?
Besides that, I have my suspicions about the driveability of the Eagle, or more correct, the turbocharged Offy on a road coarse like the "Ring". At that time, turbolag was still a major problem and defined in time periods that look scary (long) compared with the near direct response of later years. At ovals it wasn't that much of a problem but on a road track?

Hence my doubts. I am not gonna say that it was impossible for the '72 eagle to beat an F1 at the Nurnburgring.
But these are the arguements that I would like to bring into the debate and have answers on by people who know more about the unlimited boost turbo Offies of the early 70's. An engine that I rate as a hallmark engine within racing and should deserve much more credits and appraise then it gets from the primarily European F1 fans.


Henri

#23 scheivlak

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:05

Comparing like with like: at the time of the Silverstone USAC race the outright circuit record was held by James Hunt in the McLaren M23 at 1 min 18.81 sec, set in 1976. Ronnie Peterson’s Lotus 78 had lapped in 1 min 16.07 sec in practice for the 1978 International Trophy F1 race. In practice for the USAC race Ongais took the Parnelli round in 1 min 16.25 sec , and in the race itself set a new outright circuit record of 1 min 18.45 sec.

One year later, in 1979, Jones took pole for the F1 GP in 1.11.88 while Regazzoni set FL with 1.14.40 - that's how fast things went in the skirt era!

#24 scheivlak

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 09:11

I am not so sure that the Eagle would have outperformed an F1 at Nurnburgring, As far as I remember, the 1972 Ferrari definitely wasn't the best car that season and to give F1 a better chance the best representative might have been the Tyrrell and/or the Lotus of that year.

The Ferrari might not have been the best car season wise but Jacky Ickx took pole, fastest lap and led from start to finish to win the 1972 German GP, so it isn't such a strange choice.....

#25 LittleChris

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:16

They definitely used the chicane, Chris. There's a photo on the front of the relevant Motoring News showing the cars negotiating the chicane in the early laps of the race.



Thanks Tim., memory not what it was :well:

#26 Henri Greuter

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:27

The Ferrari might not have been the best car season wise but Jacky Ickx took pole, fastest lap and led from start to finish to win the 1972 German GP, so it isn't such a strange choice.....



I stand corrected. With these statistics It surely looks as if the combo Ferrari-Ickx is the best that F1 could put up agianst the Eagle on that location. Thanks for correcting me.
Had overlooked this entirely since i primarily remember 1972 being a bad year for Ferrari.

Henri

#27 Tim Murray

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:43

Given a bit more reliability Ferrari could have had a very good year in 1972 - Ickx's qualifying performances were at least as good as Fittipaldi's and Stewart's.

Edited by Tim Murray, 27 July 2011 - 20:40.


#28 alansart

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 10:48

They definitely used the chicane, Chris. There's a photo on the front of the relevant Motoring News showing the cars negotiating the chicane in the early laps of the race.


Yes they did use the chicane. I was a marshal there. Because of the turbo lag they were having to floor the throttle in the chicane and hope they'd timed it right to be pointing down the pit straight when the power came in :eek:

Edited by alansart, 27 July 2011 - 10:49.


#29 T54

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 16:05

OK, the Eagle had a app. 1000 hp Offy engine versus an F1 that barely had half of it. But that 1000 hp was only there on high revs and with the turbo working. Did the lay-out of the Nurnburgring allow the Eagle to be driven with high enough rpms to get enough turboboost and thus more power? because, on lower rpms withhout turbo boost, how much power did the 2.65 fourbanger come up with against a 3 liter V8? The Offy used methanol (potentially more powerful inder the same conditions then gasoline) but did that compensate at lower rpms?
Besides that, I have my suspicions about the driveability of the Eagle, or more correct, the turbocharged Offy on a road coarse like the "Ring". At that time, turbolag was still a major problem and defined in time periods that look scary (long) compared with the near direct response of later years. At ovals it wasn't that much of a problem but on a road track?

Henri,
Simply watching the 1974 race at Riverside would have answered your questions. The tight esses and the # 5, 6, 7 turns there showed that not only the Eagle had AT LEAST the traction of the best F5000 of the day, but as soon as there was any bit of straight line, the LOW-END torque of the Offy ( a low-revving engine to begin with) simply propelled the machine forward at a rate that the F5000 could only dream of.
AND, the 1972 Eagle was faster and had more down force than the 1974 version with the smaller wings and limited boost.
Plus, you have to understand about Bobby Unser: not the best dresser by any means, but a man the equal of anyone one cares to name on any given track.
As I said, Monday-morning speculation, but having had the privilege of seeing quite a few German GP's at the Ring, as well as a continuous history since 1971 with the Eagle team and having witnessed enough Indy 500's and road course races for USAC and CART cars ever since, I believe that Dan had his sums rights, and I believe that no one picked the challenge because on paper, it certainly looks like they would have had to write a check.
Best regards,

Philippe

#30 Gerr

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 18:35

I am not so sure that the Eagle would have outperformed an F1 at Nurnburgring, As far as I remember, the 1972 Ferrari definitely wasn't the best car that season and to give F1 a better chance the best representative might have been the Tyrrell and/or the Lotus of that year.

OK, the Eagle had a app. 1000 hp Offy engine versus an F1 that barely had half of it. But that 1000 hp was only there on high revs and with the turbo working. Did the lay-out of the Nurnburgring allow the Eagle to be driven with high enough rpms to get enough turboboost and thus more power? because, on lower rpms withhout turbo boost, how much power did the 2.65 fourbanger come up with against a 3 liter V8? The Offy used methanol (potentially more powerful inder the same conditions then gasoline) but did that compensate at lower rpms?
Besides that, I have my suspicions about the driveability of the Eagle, or more correct, the turbocharged Offy on a road coarse like the "Ring". At that time, turbolag was still a major problem and defined in time periods that look scary (long) compared with the near direct response of later years. At ovals it wasn't that much of a problem but on a road track?

Hence my doubts. I am not gonna say that it was impossible for the '72 eagle to beat an F1 at the Nurnburgring.
But these are the arguements that I would like to bring into the debate and have answers on by people who know more about the unlimited boost turbo Offies of the early 70's. An engine that I rate as a hallmark engine within racing and should deserve much more credits and appraise then it gets from the primarily European F1 fans.


Henri

R&T, February 1973...on Dan Gurney's challenge "It arises now because the Eagle chaps are developing a twin turbocharger system for the Offy engine, with two small turbos expected to give the same boost and power as a large one. but with reduced lag because the smaller wheels will pick up speed more quickly."

#31 Barry Boor

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:32

As most around here will know I am among D.S.G's biggest fans and have been for 50-odd years but disloyal though it may be I would have thought that around the 'Ring, an F.1 car would have been superior.

Just a gut feeling.

Sorry, Dan.

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 20:56

I think you're deserting Dan too readily, Barry...

Like I said before, the 'ring was already a much-straightened circuit by '72 and some of the losses of earlier times would have been negated.

#33 snettertonesses

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 21:31

I think the turbocharger lag issue that so many are thinking would have crippled the Eagle would have been in fact a non issue.
The turbocharged porsches of Donohue / Follmer in the Can-Am series should clearly show that turbocharger lag could be properly managed for road racing applications. The normally aspirated cars were left in the dust
The post about the possibility of a twin turbo offy in the Eagle may be exactly what would have made the Eagle a WORLD BEATER.

#34 scheivlak

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Posted 27 July 2011 - 21:36

I think you're deserting Dan too readily, Barry...

Like I said before, the 'ring was already a much-straightened circuit by '72 and some of the losses of earlier times would have been negated.

AFAIK (without doubt people like Rob Semmeling are far more expert on this) the 'ring was sanitized but not straightened by '72. It was more or less exactly the same parcours.

See e.g. http://forix.autospo...&...7080600&c=0 and http://de.wikipedia....ki/Nordschleife


#35 PCC

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 00:40

The turbocharged porsches of Donohue / Follmer in the Can-Am series should clearly show that turbocharger lag could be properly managed for road racing applications.

Do you figure that either the eagle or the Ferrari would have stood a chance against the following year's Can Am 917/30? That might actually be the sublime car of that era. Mosport and Watkins Glen had both Can Am and F1 races that year - does anyone have any comparative data?

#36 E1pix

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:14

Do you figure that either the eagle or the Ferrari would have stood a chance against the following year's Can Am 917/30? That might actually be the sublime car of that era. Mosport and Watkins Glen had both Can Am and F1 races that year - does anyone have any comparative data?

Not F1, but some benchmark of comparison....

At Road America in 1973, Jody Scheckter sat on Pole with a 2:04.9 in his F5000 Trojan.

A month later, Mark Donohue became the first to break the "magic" 2-minute barrier with the 917/30K, quite handily, besting the existing 1972 Can-Am record by some seven seconds with a 1:57.5!!!

The 917/30K defied comparison to anything ever built up to then, an F1 car nor anything else had a prayer against it. It took well over a decade for an Indy Car to break Donohue's 1973 overall course record. I believe that finally happened in the late '80s IIRC.

Today still, all rather mind boggling.... I cannot imagine what that car could do today on current race rubber.

#37 PCC

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:37

The 917/30K defied comparison to anything ever built up to then...

Well, it certainly is the most ferocious racing car I ever saw. Mind you, there's plenty I never saw...

#38 E1pix

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 01:44

Well, it certainly is the most ferocious racing car I ever saw. Mind you, there's plenty I never saw...

As with us all for sure.... so many cars, so little time.

#39 T54

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 02:22

Do you figure that either the eagle or the Ferrari would have stood a chance against the following year's Can Am 917/30?

The Ferrari? Probably not. Simply too short of power and torque. The Eagle? Absolutely. Comparable HP, superior torque, lighter weight (like 400 lbs lighter) and WAY more down force.



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#40 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 03:22

How well does anyone think, that Gurney would have done with an Ford DOHC engine in the Eagle?

It was still the engine of choice by top teams in Silver Crown dirt cars. Developement had not simply stopped with this engine.

OR

How about if Gurney had used a 355 version of the Weslake Ford?

The little 305 Chevy had done well when prepped by Penske against F-1 cars and the extra inches and Methanol would have made huge difference.

#41 Henri Greuter

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 07:29

Henri,
Simply watching the 1974 race at Riverside would have answered your questions. The tight esses and the # 5, 6, 7 turns there showed that not only the Eagle had AT LEAST the traction of the best F5000 of the day, but as soon as there was any bit of straight line, the LOW-END torque of the Offy ( a low-revving engine to begin with) simply propelled the machine forward at a rate that the F5000 could only dream of.
AND, the 1972 Eagle was faster and had more down force than the 1974 version with the smaller wings and limited boost.
Plus, you have to understand about Bobby Unser: not the best dresser by any means, but a man the equal of anyone one cares to name on any given track.
As I said, Monday-morning speculation, but having had the privilege of seeing quite a few German GP's at the Ring, as well as a continuous history since 1971 with the Eagle team and having witnessed enough Indy 500's and road course races for USAC and CART cars ever since, I believe that Dan had his sums rights, and I believe that no one picked the challenge because on paper, it certainly looks like they would have had to write a check.
Best regards,

Philippe



Philippe,


Thanks for the explanations. I never saw Riverside 1974 so I can't judge that. But I just brought up my feelings and thoughts to get answers.
Thanks again for taking the time to reply and bring this up.
I am still not convinced it could be done but I am less secure about the F1 car by now based on your comments.
But the throttle lag and the thought that, if the turbo kicked in at a wrong moment, any Eagle driver could be confronted with some 900 hp while in an opposite lock slide.....

Whatever, who was to try it, I think it would be a scary ride worht the check had he survived it.....



Henri


#42 T54

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 15:04

Thanks Henri.
In fact it all comes down to when I was living in Europe and as many Euros then, dismissing the American oval racing as pretty much worthless. That is, until my eyes were partially opened in 1957... read below.
When I saw my first Indy 500 in 1971, that changed quite a bit, the speed was simply awesome. No comparison with anything I had seen in Europe from European F1 or sports cars, a different level.
No doubt that most oval cars would have had a tough time on the Ring, but in 1972, the Eagle as well as newer McLaren M16's, fitted with the Offy turbo, opened an all-new window of thinking, when it became clear that these new cars were just as effective on tight road courses as on ovals. The demonstration performed by Unser at Riverside in 1974, with a car that was nearly 300HP short of the previous 1972 version and with 1/3rd less down force, showed the point. Anyone who has been fortunate to watch that race has to be convinced, as the car simply trounced the F5000 in a way that no F1 would have ever been able to accomplish.

I am SURE, and obviously Dan Gurney, who knows infinitely more than I ever will, was too, in offering this challenge, that Bobby would have left any contemporary F1 far behind on the Ring, after a few familiarization laps and chassis adjustments on the 1700 lbs, up to 1200HP Eagle.

As far as throttle lag, best would be to ask Bobby U about it but that day at Riverside, it did not appear to be too much of a bother. My late friend Wayne Leary, who was crew chief on the car, was also very convinced, after having seen the F1 cars in the Questor GP, that the 1972 Eagle would chew them on ANY track.

I am defending this strongly because I was privileged to have seen the awesome performance of the Eagle, as well as having watched no less than 8 F1 GP's at the Ring.

The first time I realized the actual value of brute HP is when my dad took me to the "Race of Two Worlds" at Monza, both years, and I saw the big American tanks in the banking at speeds that period F1's could only dream about, and this on rigid axles and "antiquated" chassis. Having been privileged to drive one of these beasts at speed a few years ago, I can tell you that 450HP in a 260 ci Offy can overcome a lot of handling issues... like driving an AMG C63, who cares how much it understeers, as long as the brakes and tires can take it while the throttle is floored.

In my opinion, Dan, who obviously was himself a Ringmaster, knew exactly what he was talking about. Impossible to prove today, but in the day, I would have bet my last dollar on it.

Edited by T54, 28 July 2011 - 22:16.


#43 ZOOOM

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Posted 28 July 2011 - 17:20

T54 brings up a point I haddn't thought about...
Gurney had something to back up his boast that we havn't talked about.
He wasn't just the American oval designer belching hot air.
The man had plenty of seat time around the 'ring, and had done rather well while there, too.
Had the challenge come from Unser, or even Foyt, I could chalk it up to mere bravado.
From Gurney...... carries a LOT more weight.

ZOOOM

#44 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:05

T54 brings up a point I haddn't thought about...
Gurney had something to back up his boast that we havn't talked about.
He wasn't just the American oval designer belching hot air.
The man had plenty of seat time around the 'ring, and had done rather well while there, too.
Had the challenge come from Unser, or even Foyt, I could chalk it up to mere bravado.
From Gurney...... carries a LOT more weight.

ZOOOM




I wonder if Foyt ever would have thought about putting up such a challenge, given his appearantly rather negative feelings about non-US racing and racing drivers at that time.
OK, it must be atmitted that there were a number of Earopeans didn't take US racing very serious so he kind of returned the favor.....

Henri

#45 Henri Greuter

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 08:08

Thanks Henri.
In fact it all comes down to when I was living in Europe and as many Euros then, dismissing the American oval racing as pretty much worthless. That is, until my eyes were partially opened in 1957... read below.
When I saw my first Indy 500 in 1971, that changed quite a bit, the speed was simply awesome. No comparison with anything I had seen in Europe from European F1 or sports cars, a different level.
No doubt that most oval cars would have had a tough time on the Ring, but in 1972, the Eagle as well as newer McLaren M16's, fitted with the Offy turbo, opened an all-new window of thinking, when it became clear that these new cars were just as effective on tight road courses as on ovals. The demonstration performed by Unser at Riverside in 1974, with a car that was nearly 300HP short of the previous 1972 version and with 1/3rd less down force, showed the point. Anyone who has been fortunate to watch that race has to be convinced, as the car simply trounced the F5000 in a way that no F1 would have ever been able to accomplish.

I am SURE, and obviously Dan Gurney, who knows infinitely more than I ever will, was too, in offering this challenge, that Bobby would have left any contemporary F1 far behind on the Ring, after a few familiarization laps and chassis adjustments on the 1700 lbs, up to 1200HP Eagle.

As far as throttle lag, best would be to ask Bobby U about it but that day at Riverside, it did not appear to be too much of a bother. My late friend Wayne Leary, who was crew chief on the car, was also very convinced, after having seen the F1 cars in the Questor GP, that the 1972 Eagle would chew them on ANY track.

I am defending this strongly because I was privileged to have seen the awesome performance of the Eagle, as well as having watched no less than 8 F1 GP's at the Ring.

The first time I realized the actual value of brute HP is when my dad took me to the "Race of Two Worlds" at Monza, both years, and I saw the big American tanks in the banking at speeds that period F1's could only dream about, and this on rigid axles and "antiquated" chassis. Having been privileged to drive one of these beasts at speed a few years ago, I can tell you that 450HP in a 260 ci Offy can overcome a lot of handling issues... like driving an AMG C63, who cares how much it understeers, as long as the brakes and tires can take it while the throttle is floored.

In my opinion, Dan, who obviously was himself a Ringmaster, knew exactly what he was talking about. Impossible to prove today, but in the day, I would have bet my last dollar on it.




Thank you too Philippe, this kind of discussions and exhange of info and thoughts is fun for me.





Henri

#46 nmansellfan

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 10:01

I wasn't born until 6 years after Dan Gurney laid down his challenge to the F1 teams, and i've never seen an early seventies USAC Eagle in action either, so I won't offer my opinion on what I think would have been the faster car around the Nurburgring back in '72. I can offer some numbers to the discussion though (which may end up just muddying the waters further!) in the form of pole position times at Mosport - F1, USAC, F5000 and Can-Am all raced there during the seventies, which while not the same length as the 'Ring, it did have quite similar corner types, and similar changes in gradient, as well as a similar average lap speed to the 'Ring. The USAC Indy Cars didn't visit Mosport after '68 until '77, so a direct comparison in times can't be made, but it does make for interesting reading.

So here goes -

1977 F1: 1m 11.385 - Mario Andretti Lotus 78 Cosworth DFV
1977 USAC: 1m 15.440 - Al Unser Parnelli Cosworth Turbo

1974 F1: 1m 13.188 - Emerson Fittipaldi McLaren M23 Cosworth DFV
1974 CanAm: 1m 14.500 - Jackie Oliver Shadow DN4 Chevrolet
1974 F5000: 1m 14.900 - Mario Andretti Lola T332 Chevrolet

1973 F1: 1m 13.697 - Ronnie Peterson Lotus 72E Cosworth DFV
1973 CanAm: 1m 14.100 - Mark Donohue Porsche 917/30

1972 F1: 1m 13.600 - Peter Revson McLaren M19C Cosworth DFV
1972 CanAm: 1m 14.200 - Mark Donohue Porsche 917/10

1971 F1: 1m 15.300 - Jackie Stewart Tyrrell 003 Cosworth DFV
1971 CanAm: 1m 17.300 - Jackie Stewart Lola T260 Chevrolet

At Riverside in 1974, Andretti qualified on pole in his F5000 Lola with a 1m 12.258. Bobby Unser was second on the grid in his '74 USAC Eagle Offy turbo with a 1m 13.275. Mario was over a second faster than the other F5000 cars.

Edited by nmansellfan, 29 July 2011 - 10:03.


#47 T54

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 15:44

At Riverside in 1974, Andretti qualified on pole in his F5000 Lola with a 1m 12.258. Bobby Unser was second on the grid in his '74 USAC Eagle Offy turbo with a 1m 13.275. Mario was over a second faster than the other F5000 cars.

Bobby was not sandbagging, he had trouble during practice and qualifying as I recall. The second the race began, he pulled away and disappeared at a rate of over a second per lap.

Edited by T54, 29 July 2011 - 15:45.


#48 cheapracer

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 19:28

Nice to see some balanced views in this thread as I for one have always been annoyed at the "F1 is God" type attitude over American racing in general in many forums.

Reminds me of many "World's Great Sports Car" style books where you never see a Corvette/Mustang etc. even sometimes Cobras mentioned but some unknown 1000cc POS Euro gets 2 pages .....

Edited by cheapracer, 29 July 2011 - 19:28.


#49 Jon Petersen

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Posted 29 July 2011 - 21:21

Mosport IS tight, and Ronnie WAS quick - but still: half a second quicker than Donohue in the 917/30 is more than I would have thought.

Jon

#50 PCC

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Posted 30 July 2011 - 01:12

Mosport IS tight, and Ronnie WAS quick - but still: half a second quicker than Donohue in the 917/30 is more than I would have thought.

Jon

Don't forget, the Can Am was in June, the first race of the season, and the 917/30 was not quite sorted. The GP, by contrast, was in September - the penultimate race - and everything was in pretty much optimal form by then. I'm not sure a perfect head-to-head comparison exists.